I know there's already several different bard/rdd/cots swimming around here but since I recently started playing NWN again I thought I'ld start submitting some of my former builds this one being the first I'll submit:
If I posted anything improperly I'm sorry ahead of time lol
Bard(15), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Champion of Torm(15), Human, True Neutral
01: Bard(1): Toughness, Curse Song 02: Bard(2) 03: Bard(3): Still Spell 04: Bard(4): STR+1 05: Bard(5) 06: Bard(6): Weapon Proficiency 07: Red Dragon Disciple(1) 08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1 09: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Armor Proficiency Heavy 10: Red Dragon Disciple(4) 11: Red Dragon Disciple(5) 12: Red Dragon Disciple(6): STR+1, Weapon Focus 13: Red Dragon Disciple(7) 14: Red Dragon Disciple(8) 15: Champion of Torm(1): Great Fortitude 16: Champion of Torm(2): STR+1, Improved Critical 17: Champion of Torm(3): 18: Champion of Torm(4): Skill Focus: Discipline, Blind Fight 19: Champion of Torm(5) 20: Champion of Torm(6): STR+1, Knockdown 21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength I 22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): 23: Champion of Torm(7) 24: Champion of Torm(8): STR+1, Great Strength II, Epic Weapon Focus 25: Champion of Torm(9) 26: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin 27: Champion of Torm(11): Great Strength III 28: Champion of Torm(12): STR+1 29: Champion of Torm(13) 30: Champion of Torm(14): Great Strength IV, Epic Prowess 31: Champion of Torm(15) 32: Bard(7): STR+1 33: Bard(8): Great Strength V 34: Bard(9) 35: Bard(10) 36: Bard(11): STR+1, Great Strength VI 37: Bard(12) 38: Bard(13) 39: Bard(14): Epic Fortitude 40: Bard(15): STR+1
With full +5 gear and +4 to dex you can expect an AC of 68 or 60 if using a 2 handed weapon. AB with a +5 weapon and self buffs without Divine Wrath can be expected to be around 61 with a full +12 to strength and 68 with Wrath on, max AB possible would be at 72. The server I made this on was a +5 - +6 server and it was possible to hit the 72 cap with bless/aid and a +6 weapon.
I'll post my Dev Crit variant a little later, I believe it had a DC 51 dev crit with a 70-71 AB cap.
Edited at OPs request
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/29/09 17:58
Here's the Dev crit version:
Bard(15), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Champion of Torm(15), Human, True Neutral
01: Bard(1): Toughness, Curse Song 02: Bard(2) 03: Bard(3): Still Spell 04: Bard(4): STR+1 05: Bard(5) 06: Bard(6): Weapon Proficiency 07: Red Dragon Disciple(1) 08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1 09: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Weapon Focus 10: Red Dragon Disciple(4) 11: Red Dragon Disciple(5) 12: Red Dragon Disciple(6): STR+1, Armor Proficiency Heavy 13: Red Dragon Disciple(7): 14: Red Dragon Disciple(8) 15: Champion of Torm(1): Power Attack 16: Champion of Torm(2): STR+1, Cleave 17: Champion of Torm(3): 18: Champion of Torm(4): Great Fortitude, Great Cleave 19: Champion of Torm(5) 20: Champion of Torm(6): STR+1, Blind Fight 21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Overwhelming Critical 22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): 23: Champion of Torm(7) 24: Champion of Torm(8): STR+1, Devastating Critical, Epic Weapon Focus 25: Champion of Torm(9) 26: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin 27: Champion of Torm(11): Great Strength I 28: Champion of Torm(12): STR+1 29: Champion of Torm(13) 30: Champion of Torm(14): Great Strength II, Epic Prowess, 31: Champion of Torm(15) 32: Bard(7): STR+1 33: Bard(8): Great Strength III 34: Bard(9) 35: Bard(10) 36: Bard(11): STR+1, Great Strength IV 37: Bard(12) 38: Bard(13) 39: Bard(14): Epic Fortitude 40: Bard(15): STR+1
Max AB would be 71 with a DC 51 dev crit with a full +12 str from gear/buffs
I can't help but feel that you'd be much better served by going for bard20. Then again, personally, I'd take fighter over CoT, and if that's the case, probably only four levels, but then, of course, you have a completely different build...
At the time this build was mainly used for dueling so I went through several different versions 20/10/10 being one of them, I just didn't feel that +1 AC and a longer song was worth losing out on a bonus feat from CoT and a better Wrath
But you don't just get longer song (which is worth taking 20 bard levels for by itself). You also get more spells per day. Namely War Cry (with 15 bard levels, 16 CHA and enough gear to get your CHA up to 20 you only get 2 stilled castings and 4 regular ones and you won't be able to cast any Hastes at all if you do so).
Also, I'm probably weird in this regard, but I actually prefer Extend Spell for melee bards.
Comment: you have 6 bard, 6 CoT and 8 RDD pre-epic... If you take 8 bard and 4 CoT you now suddenly don't have to take SF: Discipline and get a free epic feat (which can be used for ESF: Discipline after some rearrangement..).
For the devcrit version, take 8 bard, 8 CoT, 4 RDD pre-epic and you gain 1 BAB (even if you do get devcrit a bit later). Also, you didn't take Knockdown in the second version.... IMO it's a mandatory feat for any melee character. Throw out Great Fortitude to get it. If you do need Great Fortitude (because there aren't enough items to buff your fort to 48-49), take 2 less Great STR feats (you don't lose any AB since you now have 1 more BAB).
PS: why did you max concentration but not spellcraft? Seeing as the first only lets you resist taunt, and probably not successfully against a Taunt-heavy build and the second one grants you +8 saves..
Edited By Bertuzzi on 02/24/09 10:29
I was actually wanting SF: Disc as it was enough to put him up to 62 discipline naked with a possible 70+ just from maxed +str and bard song, also as a side note ESFes aren't obtainable through CoT bonus feats. And while yes a longer bardsong is usually preferable this build was never meant for any serious fight to last longer then Divine Wrath's duration making a long song rather pointless for a build based around dealing as much damage as fast as possible during Wrath's duration hence the massive 54/52 str between the 2 variations. As for the dev version missing KD I was intending to list it as optional in place of great fort but..I was lazy And as for the P.S concentration is exceedingly important for any melee hybrid that might need to rebuff in case of duration running out which commonly happens with War Cry or rebuffing Imp Invis in case of a dispell and lets face it 50% conceal is NOT something you want to be without in the middle of a fight, besides that..if spellcraft saves went around the +20 saves cap I would have given it some thought but since it doesn't..it's more up to user preference
I know there's already several different bard/rdd/cots swimming around here but since I recently started playing NWN again I thought I'ld start submitting some of my former builds this one being the first I'll submit:
If I posted anything improperly I'm sorry ahead of time lol
HP: 484 BAB: 26, AB Mundane: 46 AC: 23, AC Mundane: 34 or 31 without shield Saves: 39 Fort, 29 Will, 28 Reflex Skills: 43 (46)Concentration, 43 (62) Discipline, 8 Lore, 22 (25) Perform, 40 Tumble, 28 UMD
With full +5 gear and +4 to dex you can expect an AC of 68 or 60 if using a 2 handed weapon. AB with a +5 weapon and self buffs without Divine Wrath can be expected to be around 61 with a full +12 to strength and 68 with Wrath on, max AB possible would be at 72. The server I made this on was a +5 - +6 server and it was possible to hit the 72 cap with bless/aid and a +6 weapon.
I'll post my Dev Crit variant a little later, I believe it had a DC 51 dev crit with a 70-71 AB cap.
Please pm a mod so we can make sure this is a LEGAL build. You are missing 2 epic feats.
I dont know if you can convince me that 15cot.. 20 bard. I dont think it is a good choice, but what do i know. ometimes, there IS a reason that a particular build hasnt been done before in the guild.
What i dont understand, and others have dont it aswell, why 2 versions? I know you want to be friendly to those who like dev crit and those that dont, but, in my humble opinion, make a stand! _________________
If a mod could delete the first post and replace it with this one I'ld appreciate it Excel was being a pain that night so I had to type it all down made a few mistakes so bleh
Bard(15), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Champion of Torm(15), Human, True Neutral
01: Bard(1): Toughness, Curse Song 02: Bard(2) 03: Bard(3): Still Spell 04: Bard(4): STR+1 05: Bard(5) 06: Bard(6): Weapon Proficiency 07: Red Dragon Disciple(1) 08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1 09: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Armor Proficiency Heavy 10: Red Dragon Disciple(4) 11: Red Dragon Disciple(5) 12: Red Dragon Disciple(6): STR+1, Weapon Focus 13: Red Dragon Disciple(7) 14: Red Dragon Disciple(8) 15: Champion of Torm(1): Great Fortitude 16: Champion of Torm(2): STR+1, Improved Critical 17: Champion of Torm(3): 18: Champion of Torm(4): Skill Focus: Discipline, Blind Fight 19: Champion of Torm(5) 20: Champion of Torm(6): STR+1, Knockdown 21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength I 22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): 23: Champion of Torm(7) 24: Champion of Torm(8): STR+1, Great Strength II, Epic Weapon Focus 25: Champion of Torm(9) 26: Champion of Torm(10): Armor Skin 27: Champion of Torm(11): Great Strength III 28: Champion of Torm(12): STR+1 29: Champion of Torm(13) 30: Champion of Torm(14): Great Strength IV, Epic Prowess 31: Champion of Torm(15) 32: Bard(7): STR+1 33: Bard(8): Great Strength V 34: Bard(9) 35: Bard(10) 36: Bard(11): STR+1, Great Strength VI 37: Bard(12) 38: Bard(13) 39: Bard(14): Epic Fortitude 40: Bard(15): STR+1
Concentration 43(46), Discipline 43(62), Lore 8(24), Perform 22(25), Tumble 40(39), UMD 28(31)
Some people like dev some people don't so I put up both versions this is mainly a PvP heavy build and since server rules differ between servers when it comes to certain feats like hips and dev I put up both versions so...it's up to you as to which you want to try out in a test module before spending the time to actually level it. And if you want the merrits of a 15/15/10 build I'ld prefer if you put it up against other bard/rdd/-- builds, as I don't really want to promote it since I'm biased..I made this particular one after all
Sorry man. I have seen the 20/10/10 version do amazing things, and it WASNT a cookiecutter like this one. I dont mean to be rough, i just dont like 'born at 40' builds. They have no originality, imo. But what do i know.
I'm the opposite when I make a build if I'm not happy with the result at 40 it's not worth my time to level and gear it on whatever server I might be playing on so in general the builds I post will have that "born at 40" feel, and while yes a 15/10/15 can be considered a cookie cutter build there wasn't a single one registered on pulses' search engine so I figured I'ld contribute one..so as a side note this build is capable of pvm but there are several much better pvm alternatives if you want a melee bard..as for pvp give it some gear put it in a pit with more or less any other strength based character and see how he fares then decide if ya like him or not
Dude.. the point we're trying to make is that sometimes there's no point to making an "original" level split because there's no point to making an "original" level split.
Your 5 levels of CoT gives you one (1!!) bonus feat and a whopping +2 ab/damage to your Divine Wrath which you can use once(!) per day for a whopping 11 rounds.
In exchange you lose 5 bard songs per day, Lasting Inspiration (your song now lasts 10 instead of 100 rounds), you don't get ANY bard buffs until around level 37-39 where you have more than 1 or so uses per day and they last long enough and you don't get GMW until level 40.
Yeah../
Quote: Posted 02/25/09 09:10 (GMT) -- Bertuzzi
Dude.. the point we're trying to make is that sometimes there's no point to making an "original" level split because there's no point to making an "original" level split.
Your 5 levels of CoT gives you one (1!!) bonus feat and a whopping +2 ab/damage to your Divine Wrath which you can use once(!) per day for a whopping 11 rounds.
In exchange you lose 5 bard songs per day, Lasting Inspiration (your song now lasts 10 instead of 100 rounds), you don't get ANY bard buffs until around level 37-39 where you have more than 1 or so uses per day and they last long enough and you don't get GMW until level 40.
Yeah../
Yeah, you should listen to avado -- oh wait, that's not avado! Poopoo, it's like we have two of them now _________________ Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz Mirdautas vras! Karn ghaamp agh nūt Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh
Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
I get the point everyone's making however this build ISN'T made for long lasting songs or party support, it's a damage dealer/off-tank in pvm and a melee killer in pvp, if you want lasting inspiration and a +6 ac song..why are you looking at a 15/15/10 when there's already plenty of 26/4/10s & 20/10/10s so..to make it clear this is a melee with buffs to enhance AB/AC/DMG and saves it should be treated as such. And as a note you don't HAVE to follow the level progression after level 22 you can interchange the bard/CoT levels to however you like for additional bard buffs earlier or skill dumps whenever you want.
I get the point everyone's making however this build ISN'T made for long lasting songs or party support, it's a damage dealer/off-tank in pvm and a melee killer in pvp, if you want lasting inspiration and a +6 ac song..why are you looking at a 15/15/10 when there's already plenty of 26/4/10s & 20/10/10s so..to make it clear this is a melee with buffs to enhance AB/AC/DMG and saves it should be treated as such.
The thing is, you just described ANY bard/rdd/cot! So, we are asking why is your build, without lasting inspiration, 5 bardsongs, BUT it has that extra divine wrath damage (again 1 per day feat), why is it better than the 20/10/10? I dont see any benefit to doing your buld vs the 20/10/10 version.. SELL US ON IT!! _________________
I was more hoping that people would take the initiative to load it up in a lvling module but very well..lol I"ll compare the 2 in a PvP situation since after all that's what this build is best at
Now equally geared a 15/15/10 would have the following:
46 + 6 Str mod + 6 EB + 2 Song + 2 War Cry + 7 Wrath = 69 AB 68 AC with +5 gear/bard song/mage armor 484HP 500HP with bard song 39 Fort, 29 Will, 28 Reflex with no modifiers 41 Fort, 31 Will, 30 Reflex with song
A 20/10/10 would have the following:
46 + 6 Str mod + 6 EB + 2 Song + 2 War Cry + 5 Wrath = 67 AB 69 AC with +5 gear/bard song/mage armor 464HP 492HP with bard song 34 Fort, 27 Will, 26 Reflex 36 Fort, 30 Will, 28 Reflex with song
Very similar statistically but when you start adding in things like -4 AB when using Knockdown, the need for +stat gear, +skill gear and +saves gear then NEEDING 49 Fort for saves against Dev, 80+ Disc etc it becomes important to get as much out of a class as possible needing less + saves gear will most likely make room for more +skill and +stat gear that and with a 69 AB with Wrath up it's possible with scrolls or potions to reach the +20 AB cap just with aid, bless and prayer for a MUCH longer duration then True Strike, so if you want something that stands out about this build..it's a AB *** plain and simple, if it has less then 90 disc and high 80 AC chances are it doesn't stand a chance with anywhere from a 18-20, 15-20, 13-20 crit range depending on weapon choices you're also looking at a easy 100+ dmg per crit. So for Pros - Higher AB, higher damage, better saves, more health. Cons - No Lasting Inspiration, not as many songs per day, bard/curse song is slightly worse, it's a one trick pony just like every other bard/rdd/cot soon as Divine Wrath falls you're only 2-4 AB higher then a bard/rdd/bg with 8-9 less AC
You say you need concentration to rebuff, yet you also say you are meant for only a short term fight. Which is it? If you only intend on going so long, why would you have a need to rebuff? I know your bard buffs have a horrible duration for most of the build, but as you say, your built for 40 anyways. Spellcraft over concentration here, easily.
Dispells happen and were commonplace in bard vs bard duels being able to recast imp invis if it's dispelled can mean the difference between winning a fight and losing a fight, spellcraft will never save you against a 1 to a death spell though it would be useful vs mind spells so again personal preference I wasn't worried about mages on a melee hence concentration if you're in a heavy caster environment then yes spellcraft could help vs mind and reflex based spells
WHy not do a weapon master ki damage build next! Divine wrath is 1 per day! What do you do after the 3 rounds (max 9 with +12 char) and all your nice numbers fall short of lastin inspiration, etc.
We are just pointing out that your build, while fine, isnt really that good cuz you based it on ONE FEAT.
Here's a better question when it comes to any popular PvP or PvM server when do you ever NOT see a 26/4/10 Bard who is generally going to be pissed that a 20/10/10 just cursed everyone with a sub-par 100 round song, this build wasn't made for it's song it was made to compliment any PvP or PvM team with a high ac dmg dealer or for 1v1s where lasting inspiration means nothing either you've died or the other guy with it died, and trust me I've killed more 26/4/10s & 20/10/10s with this thing then I can even remember..or you're fighting a exceedingly high AC build in which case..it's just better to die early then have a 10 minute fight.
BTW if Ki Critical was anywhere near as good as Divine Wrath I would, always dreamed they'ld make it 1 use per 10 levels auto 20
Edited By Revenant Mattlov on 02/26/09 02:26
If your build is built for PvP duels... I'm pretty sure they last longer than 11 rounds. Also, if I ever see someone use something like True Strike, Divine Wrath, Divine Power from a scroll or the like, I run around in circles for a bit, until the buff expires. So... yeah.
Which means you now wasted, well, pretty much your entire build until you can rest again.
Also, as for curse song... Most good players chug a Lesser Restoration as soon as they're cursed. On the other hand having to sing every 10 rounds in combat and getting flat footed in the process hurts. A lot. Like lying on my back with a sword sticking out of my gut hurts. Especially since it takes a whole round to use.
And there's not that big a difference between a level 20 and a level 26 song. The second one can have +6 AC and +15 or 16 skills vs. +5 and +8, but only if you have 80 perform... In most environments it's very, very hard and means you're not wearing any combat equipment.
Quote: Posted 02/25/09 10:37 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Yeah, you should listen to avado -- oh wait, that's not avado! Poopoo, it's like we have two of them now
Well, we both live in Canada so that must be it
Every fight where they've stood toe to toe has never lasted past Divine Wraths duration or Bard/Curse song's duration unless as I stated before it was a build based around high AC in which case well..you're outa luck but so is any other type of bard. And yes if you run while Divine Wrath is up then the fight isn't going well but guess what it isn't gonna go well for a 20/10/10 either..or a pally/sorc/rdd or any other build that relies on a short duration AB boost like Divine Wrath, True Strike, Divine Favor or..actually any buffs in general if you can't move faster then your opponent but then..if all they do is run it isn't much of a duel is it
The difference is that a Pally/RDD or something similar has a dozen or so buffs, whereas a CoT only has Divine Wrath once per day. I'd simply be running for 20 minutes...
True enough and had more then enough fights like that as well..mostly from annoying monk sneakers hate those things lol
Quote: Posted 02/26/09 05:43 (GMT) -- Bertuzzi
Quote: Posted 02/25/09 10:37 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Yeah, you should listen to avado -- oh wait, that's not avado! Poopoo, it's like we have two of them now
Well, we both live in Canada so that must be it
Nah, its that we are canadian and exceedingly good looking too (*dam Finn, you and i have played this game WAYYY to long!) _________________
Sometimes, it's the simple things that escape us. Well, let me rephrase that, for as it pertains to me, most times the simple things escape me. Let me explain... and in so doing, sound a bit whacked.
When I look at the title of this build, I see "Song" and "Wrath." Song and Wrath. If it were me, I would try to meld, or marry if you will, the best possible Bard Song with the best possible Divine Wrath. RDD, while it enhances any build, tends to get in the way, and is decidedly unoriginal after 7 years of the game. In other words, RDD can make a pile of crap both look and smell good. Beware it's allure, for it can hide a builder's flaws (and in rare instances, illustrate his genius).
But, in fulfilling a true Song of Wrath, I might approach it from a Bard20/CoT20 angle, or Bard25/CoT15, or perhaps even a Bard23/CoT16/Cleric1. I may be treading on a completely new build here, but when you do the latter, you'll get the following:
Lasting Inspiration CoT Divine Wrath at 15th level, all Divine Damage More Feats Can take Divine Shield/Might Can make more use of Smiting/Extra Smiting Take Animal Domain so Bard can Summon Level VII beasties. Take Healing Domain and make all your Bard Cures Empowered More Buffs Better Songs Undispellable Better Saves
In the end, you are a Song of Wrath, and not another Bard/Rdd with floopy wings who struts and frets his hour upon the stage. You lose the Strength boost, and maybe a point of AC, but you more than make up for it in other areas, plus, you've already proven your penchant for playing Charisma-based builds with your Ghostly Performer build (though I would not suggest for this to be Chr-based, but more of a Str26/Chr20 blend).
Divine Wrath is pretty nice, I played a while with a build I once made that had a fairly decent Divine Wrath on dragon shape. Few rounds true, but few rounds of murder.
At any rate, griz might be right with the RDD, it's tough on the levels. A Bard 21 / Fighter 4 / Champion of Torm 15 would get Lasting Insipiration
The buils is pretty decent as far as unbuffed status, so I can see it working. I don't see it really as a level 40 build, it has good initial STR and Bard is a good class to start leveling, they got that low level XP boost or whatever, I don't remember how it was called. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
I'll consider playing around a bit with spreadsheet and seeing if I can't make a bard/cot without rdd and a bit more longevity in mind
Well, we both live in Canada so that must be it