I will edit this post later tonight with the pulse cap search (i can browse pulse cap on my phone but not copy and paste to here). There is only one build remotely similar to this, Nimueh_Leafbow's "The Shadow's Breath" D20/Ro13/M7 but the only similarities are reasonably close class levels as his/her build focus' on finesse + air elemental.
I borrowed heavily from Thaxll'ssyllia's druid guide (which I've been unable to find again), especially the Conjuration focus' and stonehold/sov thoughts. I also borrowed from a suggestion/comment on another build I can't remember, I think it was Avado or cdaulepp(sp?) talking about sneak attacks on SOV. I also borrowed indirectly from several of Kael's builds and comments since I've read like 35 dragon build posts / comments of his on other dragon builds.
Now I can't do sneak attacks I'm assuming if it lasts a round (take too long for me to shift) but I assume stonehold would generate sneak attacks for me like kd/ikd?)
I called this build the perfect combatant not because I think its a perfect build or remotely close but more because he unifies excellent casting with excellent melee can stealth (theoretically I'm sure dragons get penalties (-8?)) has sneak attacks and a very strong knockdown, can handle groups and also 1v1, and probably other things I haven't thought of.
I haven't tested it in the building module but according to the CBC spreadsheet it's all legal. I will test it tonight when I get home from work and also post the buffed stats and the shape shifted stats etc as I'm not sure how to figure all those out.
This is my first attempt to post an "epic build" i have a build in general forum that is currently taking comments but I think this one is better. I'm sure there is probably some magic you guys can work in terms of switching what levels/feats are taken where and I would love to hear those comments as well as anything else.
Human, LN (No Smites) <PvM/PvP>, Playable 6-40 PVM/PVP (Between druid casting and shape shifting / Call Lightning. Some levels harder then others -- 20% xp penalty but small price to pay imo for versatility)
STR: 8 DEX: 10 CON: 10 WIS: 18(32) INT: 16 CHA: 8
Hitpoints: 294 Skillpoints: 408 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Reflex/Will): 24/20/34 Saving Throw bonuses: +9 vs Spells; +2 vs Traps BAB: 23 AB: No Melee Unshifted AC: Human: Naked 31 (41 IE) (Monk Mundane no ac right?) Buffed: Insight +6
LEVELING GUIDE (All Ability Wisdom) 01: Rogue(1): Expertise, Knockdown 02: Druid(1): 03: Druid(2): Spell Focus: Conjuration Druid Till 18 06: Druid(5): Extend Spell 09: Druid(8): Empower Spell 12: Druid(11): Improved Critical Unarmed 15: Druid(14): Improved Knockdown 18: Druid(17): Blind Fight 19: Druid(18): 20: Monk(1): (20% xp starts here -- Push to wherever for less xp penalty / more discipline. 21: Rogue(2): Great Wisdom 22: Rogue(3): 23: Rogue(4): 24: Rogue(5): Great Wisdom 25: Rogue(6): 26: Druid(19): 27: Druid(20): Great Wisdom 28: Druid(21): 29: Druid(22): 30: Druid(23): Great Wisdom 31: Druid(24): *Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration 32: Rogue(7): 33: Druid(25): Dragon Shape 34: Rogue(8): 35: Rogue(9): 36: Rogue(10): ESF: Conjuration, **Defensive Roll 37: Rogue(11): 38: Rogue(12): 39: Druid(26): Armor Skin 40: Rogue(13): **Improved Evasion * Druid Bonus ** Rogue Bonus
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 09/29/09 14:50
Why go 13 rogue and not get Epic Dodge?
Take your 13th rogue on lvl 36 or 39 and get Epic Dodge eh
Quote: Posted 07/16/09 17:12 (GMT) -- Cainsdefeat
Why go 13 rogue and not get Epic Dodge?
Take your 13th rogue on lvl 36 or 39 and get Epic Dodge eh
Because I have 10 dexterity.
oops I didn't look at stats, I was just thinking when I see 13 Rogue in a build I usually think "Epic Dodge". So I scrolled down quickly and didn't see ED. My bad. lol
Quote: Posted 07/16/09 17:18 (GMT) -- Cainsdefeat
oops I didn't look at stats, I was just thinking when I see 13 Rogue in a build I usually think "Epic Dodge". So I scrolled down quickly and didn't see ED. My bad. lol
I'll forgive you if you make at least one suggestion/comment ;>
ok
Why take so much int. ??
Do you need spot and listen when dragon gets TTS.
Put more points in Dex instead of Int.
Quote: Posted 07/16/09 17:49 (GMT) -- Cainsdefeat
ok
Why take so much int. ??
Do you need spot and listen when dragon gets TTS.
Put more points in Dex instead of Int.
Physical stats are ignored when shape shifted. Since the main goal is to avoid getting into melee when unshifted all the extra skills are far more useful imo. I.E. I could get extra dex and have slightly more AC when unshifted if a rogue jumps out at me (i can cast true seeing myself btw) or I can have much higher spot/listen and see him to shift before he attacks + have much higher skills in shifted form.
Also on my server true seeing isn't the same as the spell so I like having the extra skills. in fact I don't know if the set traps is worth it I may max listen/spot instead.
Good comment though!
I'd drop improved critical and empower spell. Take Greater Spell Focus and Improved Expertise pre-epic, take Epic Prowess in epic instead of GFS. Drop defensive roll for crippling strike.
Seems nice I actually think any druid IS playable 1-5 PVM just by buffing up the bear.
I'm curious about the naked human AC. Your note mentions IE but I only see you taking expertise....
If I were playing this build, I would take INT of 14 and boost Con to 14 just to help you survive ranged and spell attacks in human form on early levels.
I would also consider taking the monk level earlier like 13th so that you get your wisdom AC earlier especially if you intend to fight in wildshape.
You could maybe push the rogue level to epics to increase your preepic BAB from 13 to 14...I always find dragon builds to suffer on the AB. You've got more skill points than you need already and its not much of a sacrifice.
But again nice build. There's some real synergy between sneak attack and all the flatfooted goodness from SOV and Stonehold.
I'd drop improved critical and empower spell. Take Greater Spell Focus and Improved Expertise pre-epic, take Epic Prowess in epic instead of GFS. Drop defensive roll for crippling strike.
Doesn't Improved Critical work in dragon form? I can see dropping empowered spell I really won't need it for all that much. Actually might drop extend spell instead because empowered aoe spells are nice. Remember focus is to not be just a pure dragon but to try to be versatile without sucking lol. The goal with all the spell focus' is to make the Stoneholds hard to beat while I can run through them in dragon shape with freedom on is that snagging sneak attacks while SOV is ripping up the rest.
I'm not sure how 1 ab (or is it 2?) compares to 6 dc tough choices lol.
Seems nice I actually think any druid IS playable 1-5 PVM just by buffing up the bear.
I'm curious about the naked human AC. Your note mentions IE but I only see you taking expertise....
If I were playing this build, I would take INT of 14 and boost Con to 14 just to help you survive ranged and spell attacks in human form on early levels.
I would also consider taking the monk level earlier like 13th so that you get your wisdom AC earlier especially if you intend to fight in wildshape.
You could maybe push the rogue level to epics to increase your preepic BAB from 13 to 14...I always find dragon builds to suffer on the AB. You've got more skill points than you need already and its not much of a sacrifice.
But again nice build. There's some real synergy between sneak attack and all the flatfooted goodness from SOV and Stonehold.
Excellent call on the BAB. I pushed the monk level to 21 and voila +1 bab very nice! And I did lose improved expertise while I was shifting feats around. i didn't even notice till you said that thank you. Now I have to figure out what to change.
I see your points on making it easier to level but I don't know if its my PW or what I find it ridiculously easy to level and not get touched. I can literally just call lightning over and over and then rest so I'd rather max out my 20+ levels then worry about 1-10. I'm not sure what to do about improved expertise. I may take the earlier suggestions of dropping empower (or maybe extend) to put it back in. doh But this is good this is what i wanted to see.
Thanks!
IMO your spot and/or listen should be maxed to see a decent rogue or SD. Far to easy to get high Hide for sure then what spot you have. Listen however is another option you could focus on if you can't max both because it a bit more difficult to get high Move Silent then it is Hide.
EDIT: But then again your Human so your chances of detecting a sneak before they attack is slim?
Edited By Cainsdefeat on 07/16/09 19:21
Quote: Posted 07/16/09 19:19 (GMT) -- Cainsdefeat
IMO your spot and/or listen should be maxed to see a decent rogue or SD. Far to easy to get high Hide for sure then what spot you have. Listen however is another option you could focus on if you can't max both because it a bit more difficult to get high Move Silent then it is Hide.
EDIT: But then again your Human so your chances of detecting a sneak before they attack is slim?
Excellent suggestion I will take enough points out of spot to max listen!
Quote: Posted 07/16/09 18:12 (GMT) -- Calbrenar
Doesn't Improved Critical work in dragon form?
It works. But going from 20/x2 to 19-20/x2 ain't exactly stellar, I think 1 AB or improved expertise are both better.
Quote: I can see dropping empowered spell I really won't need it for all that much. Actually might drop extend spell instead because empowered aoe spells are nice.
What empowered AoEs are you dropping? Extended Aura of Vitality can be handy...
Quote: I'm not sure how 1 ab (or is it 2?) compares to 6 dc tough choices lol.
You don't lose 6 DC. You take GSF pre-epic and only ESF epic, meaning you free up an epic feat for epic prowess while keeping the same +6 DC to conjuration.
It works. But going from 20/x2 to 19-20/x2 ain't exactly stellar, I think 1 AB or improved expertise are both better.
Quote: I can see dropping empowered spell I really won't need it for all that much. Actually might drop extend spell instead because empowered aoe spells are nice.
What empowered AoEs are you dropping? Extended Aura of Vitality can be handy...
Quote: I'm not sure how 1 ab (or is it 2?) compares to 6 dc tough choices lol.
You don't lose 6 DC. You take GSF pre-epic and only ESF epic, meaning you free up an epic feat for epic prowess while keeping the same +6 DC to conjuration.
I meant I lose 6 if I drop ESF and keep improved crit. But in reality I'd only lose 2 dc right because they don't stack with greater and normal. So I can drop improved crit for improved expertise since I forgot I left that out.
I would mainly be using like empowered call lightning or empowered bombard. Maybe empowered creeping doom? I just like it to allow me extra casts. i.e. if I have a 5 man pvp group i can utilize empowers/extends to get extra buffs (say i don't have enough freedom of movement and stoneskin -- may be a bad example dont know if you can extend empower EVERYTHING or only specific spells)
Ok so new change is drop improved crit for -> improved Expertise. Oh and I dropped Defensive Roll for Crippling.
Edited By Calbrenar on 07/16/09 19:56
Nash -- swapped out 2 more druid levels for rogue levels (I had swapped 1 rogue down already) and got another +1 bab. My pre-epic bab with 16 druid 4 rogue is 15. I believe that is the max I can get without a fighter type class pre-epic and lets me start with extra skills.
I feel like I'm learning stuff lol
Quote: by Calbrenar I borrowed heavily from Thaxll'ssyllia's druid guide (which I've been unable to find again)
Here you go.
In my experience 14 CON and 14 INT is way better than 10 CON and 16 INT. HP and Concentration are values you'll use often and you want them to be high.
Empowered Spell is nice, as I mention in my Druid guide, Aura of Vitality doesn't last enough to take a whole feat in it, but Empower can get used in several combat spells, much more useful IMO.
Improved Knockdown is completely useless. IKD gives you a bonus to your size so that you don't get a penalty for trying to hit a bigger opponent, but a dragon is already the biggest size, so you get the exact same effect from KD and IKD. You really need to drop IKD. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Thanks! That guide is an inspiration! I wanted to reread it again and see if I could make any changes to my build that I had forgotten from reading your guide.
In regards to IKD -- I read the feat again.
A character with this feat counts as one size category larger when he makes a knockdown attack. All other knockdown conditions still apply.
I looked at the size category and it goes up to gargantuan (dragon is huge according to dragon shape).
testing in the module with knockdown and improved knockdown IKD always gives a +2 bonus regardless of the size creature I attack against. I.E. Against another dragon KD was 40 IDK was 42 So I got a +2 bonus for being 1 size larger.
whether that's worth it or not compared to another feat I don't know but I'd love it if you'd test it out and confirm if I'm correct.
Hmmmmmm, as far as I remember, Knockdown will always have a penalty to hit, and given the dragon's size that penalty was already minimized as would be ridiculous that IKD could actually end giving a bonus to your AB if you fought a small enough enemy... perhaps it was changed on the new version? or maybe I'm crazy. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Knockdown does not give an AB bonus anymore. Dragon Shape does, however, have hidden +6 claws.
Naked AB: 24/21/18/15/12 Naked AC: 31 (41)
+5 Natural Armor / +5 Rop / +5 Gloves of Long Death / +5 Robes of the Shining Hand /
Unshifted (Self Buffed) 35/32/29/26/23 ac 53(63)
Dragon (Self Buffed) 50/47/44/41/38 AC: 76 (86)
I'm not sure what was happening I don't pretend to understand the mechanics to that level yet. I just know I tested it and vs same size or lower guys KD and IKD produce different end rolls. Whenever it used claws they were different by 2 (as one would expect from 1 size difference higher) when it used bite it was a lot lower (probably the loss in claws +6). Test it and let me know!
Also the way its worded makes me think it works the way my testing seems to support but of course wiki could be wrong or I could be misinterpreting it. I would love to have someone else test for sure.
Where's Kael! I always see him testing this stuff out like ESF etc lol
Little comment on True Seeing and Spot/Listen: Even in modules/servers where TS is changed (usually to provide a bonus to Spot/Listen + Ultravision and See Invis) the True Seeing from the creature skins works as Bioware's TS. So Wyrmling, Rakshasa, Dragons, etc still get to see Stealthy-types, as long as the module hasn't changed the creature skins (as far as I know). Listen and Spot are still useful because you need to see them pesty rogues while in human form if you want to cast spells at them.
Quote: Posted 07/22/09 15:30 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo
Little comment on True Seeing and Spot/Listen: Even in modules/servers where TS is changed (usually to provide a bonus to Spot/Listen + Ultravision and See Invis) the True Seeing from the creature skins works as Bioware's TS. So Wyrmling, Rakshasa, Dragons, etc still get to see Stealthy-types, as long as the module hasn't changed the creature skins (as far as I know). Listen and Spot are still useful because you need to see them pesty rogues while in human form if you want to cast spells at them.
Thanks for the tip. I can only put .5 in the last skill I may drop listen to 2x and then rely on true seeing spell to beef it up that last amount and keep disarm trap at capped.
i would like to see, your final build. Looking foward to it
Knockdown does not give an AB bonus anymore. Dragon Shape does, however, have hidden +6 claws.
Correct, all knockdowns are at -4 AB, but the hidden discipline check is modified further by the size difference. So a dragon performing an improved knockdown on a tiny creature should get -4AB and +16 (or 20 from size - 4 standard penalty) to the discipline check.
I'm aware But in the past, you'd get a massive AB bonus.
Quote: +5 Gloves of Long Death
It's been quite awhile, so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but if i remember correctly, bracers (non defensive) have never stacked for forms unless it was changed in a patch. _________________ I'm both a master of my inner self, and of my outward form. -Xovia Dar'Kain 6Monk/9Druid/25Shifter My base Module
Bracers, defensive or not, have never affected any stats of any shift. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
But this is good this is what i wanted to see.