Yes it's a fact, this build is nigh invincible. Yes it's the infamous dragon build, yet no one seems to be doing it right...I'm seeing other people try so hard to get AC values of 60 and 79, whilst i'm easily getting a naked AC of 86. Please don't bash me for posting another dragon form, I don't usually have time for forum prowling.
------Here's how you make it------
Druid 28 / Shifter 10 / Monk 2
Human*, Lawful Neutral
*I dunno why people keep using dwarves as druids, but I wanna look good no? And that extra feat is quite handy...
STR 8 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 16 WIS 18 (34) CHA 8
01-Druid 1: Expertise, Improved Expertise 02-Druid 2 03-Druid 3: Alertness 04-Druid 4: WIS +1 (WIS 19) 05-Druid 5 06-Shifter 1: Extend Spell 07-Druid 6 08-Shifter 2: WIS +1 (WIS 20) 09-Druid 7: Maximize Spell 10-Shifter 3 11-Shifter 4 12-Monk 1: Blindfight, WIS +1 (WIS 21) 13-Shifter 5 14-Druid 8 15-Druid 9: Knockdown 16-Shifter 6: WIS +1 (WIS 22) 17-Shifter 7 18-Druid 10: Improved Critical: Unarmed 19-Shifter 8 20-Shifter 9: WIS +1 (WIS 23) 21-Druid 11: Great Wisdom I (WIS 24) 22-Druid 12 23-Druid 13 24-Shifter 10: Outsider Shape, WIS +1 (WIS 25) 25-Druid 14 26-Druid 15 27-Druid 16: Armor Skin 28-Druid 17: WIS +1 (WIS 26) 29-Druid 18 30-Druid 19: Great Wisdom II (WIS 27) 31-Druid 20 32-Druid 21: WIS +1 (WIS 28) 33-Druid 22: Great Wisdom III (WIS 29) 34-Druid 23 35-Druid 24: Great Wisdom IV (WIS 30) 36-Druid 25: Great Wisdom V, WIS +1 (WIS 32) 37-Druid 26 38-Druid 27 39-Druid 28: Dragon Shape, Great Wisdom VI (WIS 33) 40-Monk 2: WIS +1 (WIS 34)
I never really cared much about skill points, so long as you max out Concentration and Spellcraft and Tumble, you'll be fine.
HP: 320 unbuffed/ 440 buffed / 980 + when buffed and in dragon form
BAB: 22 AB: 21 AB Dragon form: +45 claws / +39 bite, +51/+45 capped STR add +2 in outdoor areas Damage: (claw/claw/bite) 2d6+25/2d6+25/2d8+19
Saves (Fort/Ref/Will): 24/21/33, 35/34/33 in Dragon form
------ESSENTIAL SPELLS-------
Long term Buffs (hours): Premonition, Greater Stoneskin, Maximized Bull's Strength, Death Ward, Bark Skin, Owl's Insight
Somewhat Long Term Buffs (around 56 minutes): Extended Freedom, Extended Spell Resistance
Short term Buffs: around five and a half minutes...Extended Aura of Vitality
Casting Spells: Maximized Ice Storm (1 is enough), Dispel Magic (1 is also enough)
This leaves all the seventh level and ninth level spell slots free...a lot of the fourth level free, third level, second level, first level, cantrips, all ready to serve...
------Why is it friggin invincible?------
You are naked. These are the stats you can easily achieve. Most of these stats last for hours. A few last for at least 28 minutes. Only the bonus you get from "Aura of Vitality" last for less than 6 minutes.
AC is 86. Base AC is 32/ +Owl's Insight: 38/+Barkskin: 43/ +Aura of Vitality: 45/+Dragon form: 76/+Improved Expertise (you can always deal dmg with breath):86...Yup that's right, a NAKED AC OF 86! Knock off 2 points because Extended Aura of Vitality is only 5 minutes, that's still an naked AC of 84.
Your breath attack has a DC of 34 against reflex. It's deals 22d10 damage. This is only going to fail against opponents with evasion and high reflex saves; rogues and monks. Just claw them to death with your...
...+45/+42/+39/+36/+33 AB claws (note that your naked AC is 76 in this case), your claws do 2-16 + 25 (Critical: 19-20 / x2) in damage. And if you still keep missing them...
...You have 40/+6 damage reduction from your dragon form alone. The damage reduction from Premonition and Greater Stoneskin is not worthy of mention. Unless someone has a +6 weapon and above, attacks won't hurt you.
You have death ward against those pesky death spells. Your dragon form gives you immunities against mind spells, sneak attack, paralysis, and Fire/Electric/Acid damage depending on which dragon you turn into. You can also get freedom of movement from your druid spells, and true seeing from the dragon shape. You have blindfight against concealment. This doesn't cover everything...however...
...as a dragon you do have the saves Fortitude: 35/Reflex: 34/Will: 33 and that's without counting the bonus against spells you get from around 45 spellcraft or buffs.
You also can get 40 spell resistance from the "spell resistance" buff...
You also get a heck lot of hitpoints...they're always over 650...
You have all those druid spells at your disposal...
You're a dragon with knockdown...'nuff said
...and if you really need to be small, you can always fall back on the Rakshasa shape and toss maximized Ice Storms that do 66 AoE damage from a long range. Your AC is around 70 fully buffed with improved expertise on...
Again, the main selling point is that ridiculously high naked AC.
-------Now, here's the catch...-------
You're screwed if someone catches you in human form. Don't screw up.
I wish uncanny dodge could be here...cause like 44 points of that AC bonus is composed of Tumble + Dodge + Dexterity. Please be careful, and don't get caught flatfooted...
It's annoying how only armor fuses with dragon form...so your attack bonus is pretty muched capped at around 50ish unless you have a cleric or bard helping you out...
You have to rely on potions to heal or restore yourself in dragon form. No spells while morphed.
You're only going to benefit from armor in dragon form (although the Rakshasa form benefits from pretty much everything)
That dragon form gives +20 dodge AC, stuff that give dodge AC are redundant...
You can be KOed via devastating critical. Hopefully, that fortitude save and ridiculously high AC counter this risk.
You have no lockpicking and search, but heck you can bash stuff open and run right over traps!
You can't hide. But you don't really need to do you?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think this build does enough damage...
------Carry this stuff, then you are truly and utterly invincible...--------
Armor with armor bonus and elemental damage resistance and HASTE!!! HASTE is most important here, you can do two dragon breaths every 6 seconds with haste! Regeneration is good if you're obsessed with keeping a full health bar at all times like me...you'd also do well with armor that has a "on hit cast spell" property.
Potions. Yeah, you could probably mow through armies naked, but if you meet up with 10 of your average lvl 40 epic characters, you're going to need potions to deal with them. But seriously, they're wasting their time if they're trying to kill you. With around 5 Heal potions and haste and some heavy armor with +5 armor bonus, I could take on EVERY EPIC CHARACTER AT ONCE from the Pretty Good Character Creator module...that's 22 lvl 40 characters...on D&D hard core mode...I don't consider it an achievement because they're only NPCs, and NPCs are stupid. They don't run away and rarely heal each other for a start.
So yeah, build this girl, go on a rampage, and please tell me what build is going to kill it.
PS: I have no access to multiplayer content, please note that this build has not been tried in PVP. It would be very kind if someone could tell me how this build fares in multiplayer.
PPS: This is my first post...
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/04/09 18:03
Oops
I have apparently stated that the crit range for dragon claws is 19-20. According to the build, there's no improved Critical: unarmed strike. You should choose this over Combat Casting.
LMAO! I love the energy! We will need a mod to go in and add character lvls to the build cuz it is alittle hard to follow as it is in this form (i DONT mean edit out the banter! That is COOL! Just add character lvl!)
btw, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to make a dragon invincible. And at the same time, NOTHING is. Being a marketer though, i gotta say i LOVE the energy you brought to a run of the mill build (28/10/2 is standard with druid shifters).
So yeah, build this girl, go on a rampage, and please tell me what build is going to kill it.
Haven't checked every inch of the build (but I can already see some improvements), but any mage will slaughter you. You're also not going to hit much, though you'll be hard to hit.
Am I missing something here? What advantage does 10 shifter levels give to Dragonshape that you can't get with 18+ druid alone?
The only thing ten shifter gives is a negation of the -4 penalty in the number of damage dice rolled and the DC of the breath weapon. All the extra levels of druid and shifter do to dragon shape (besides buffs cast previously) is to improve the breath weapon. The breath weapon deals either 22d10 fire, 22d8 electric, or 22d6 acid (The 23d10 the OP posted is a mistatement). The save has a 34 DC, and the poison of the green dragon is a constant property DC 26, 2d6 constitution damage.
So yeah, build this girl, go on a rampage, and please tell me what build is going to kill it.
PS: I have no access to multiplayer content, please note that this build has not been tried in PVP. It would be very kind if someone could tell me how this build fares in multiplayer.
PPS: This is my first post...
ahh, so this is invincible to the OC through HOU! I wouldnt brag about bein invincible then. I once built a halfling that went through the whole thing nekkid and never died. Bioware wasnt really good at making challenging stuff. For the GOODS pw's are really where the tests are at.
For your next build, put character lvls in. That way we dont have to HOPE that you know what you are doing, cuz there are few who actually do
Well, it looked like his level 20 was shifter 9, if I counted correctly...
Generic Rakshasa (Dru 27 / Shf 10 / Mnk 3) -- FinneousPJ Generic Rakshasa w/ Dragon Shape (Dru 27 / Shf 10 / Mnk 3) -- FinneousPJ Rakshasa Druid (Dru 28 / Mnk 2 / Shf 10) -- pulse cap Dragon Tank (Dru 25 / Shf 13 / Mnk 2) -- Talamier Rakshasa Shifter (Dru 28 / Shf 11 / Mnk 1) -- traversc
Similar builds should be researched and linked, as per the posting rules. _________________ Epic Character Builds Posting Rules
What builds would fare well against it? Actually, most other Dragons would. They'd IKD you in a heartbeat, but you can't do it back. And then you'd have no DR against them. And not enough AC while on your heiny.
Also, of my builds I'm pretty sure the Knight of Yore (with over 70 AB) would be very good against it, unless you can breathe him to death before he can connect a blow. Being hit with a Holy Avenger would eat your buffs faster and faster, and you'd be easily KDable. 40/+6 Dr will let you sit and enjoy the punishment a bit longer though. Why no discipline? You got Monk in there. And, you asked. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Oh man, your first post, you sure need to lower your ego, this is the epic character builder's guild, that means we're pros, and your dragon is nothing special.
Basics number one: there is no invincible build.
Quote: Yes it's a fact, this build is nigh invincible. Yes it's the infamous dragon build, yet no one seems to be doing it right...I'm seeing other people try so hard to get AC values of 60 and 79, whilst i'm easily getting a naked AC of 86.
First of all, use the build search engine and look for Druid dragon builds. Once you've seen real builds come back and comment. If you're too blind I recommend you to see the Order of Jormundgandr, which, though it's an illegal build with version 1.69 that forces you to take more Druid levels for Dragon Shape than in earlier versions, it can be rearranged simply lowering a bit of Cleric for Druid and it loses close to nothing and it's still a dragon with over 80 AC and over 70 AB, so your build is like a kitten in front of that one.
Next, time for some education, since I'm pissed at you saying we don't make our dragons right. I guess you've never tried a dragon with Champion of Torm, let me tell you a hint: CoT gets Greater Wisdom as bonus feat. What does that mean? you can easily raise your base WIS to max and just with that I already made a dragon with higher AC than yours, tough luck kiddo. CoT also raise saves, and take a good look there, since any heavy arcane caster can destroy you there.
Now, the only curious thing about your build is that you take Improved Expertise whereas I always find my AC high enough without it. And take note that with Improved Expertise activated your AB collapses to a buffed +41 on your claw strike, which is not something you can brag about, the average meleer gets higher AB than that.
Now, you seem to love the shift but you're missing out like half the power you can really get out from a dragon build. Druids are spellcasters, and given you raise your WIS for Dragon Shape your spell DCs are also high, so not using your offensive spells only proves you've never fought in real time. Try and take a look at how enemies get devastated with a single Storm of Vengeance or Stonehold. The thing with Druids is that you can have high DC spells and a strong melee prescence via shifting. If you don't exploit both you will die much more often.
I bet you didn't notice dragons are immensely huge, if you rely solely on that any archer will snipe you to death easily because you can't enter narrow areas, or heck not even regular size corridors.
Quote: Your breath attack has a DC of 34 against reflex. It's deals 22d10 damage. This is only going to fail against opponents with evasion and high reflex saves; rogues and monks.
A DC of 34 is very crappy, this is going to fail easily half of the times you use it if not more. And somebody with evasion will laugh a whole turn of you sitting there and missing. With something as low as a save of 25 your chances of hitting through are already bad. And make numbers, 22d10 is only the fire breath, (the others have lower dices) which is also the most common element to have resistance against. A spell or your claws usually make higher damage per round.
Nothing personal against you. Overall the build is pretty nice, it's well done, but don't go around saying we don't make our builds right. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 10/04/09 17:28
Meh, like i said, i have zero access to multiplayer, so i've only really tested this out against NPCs from custom modules...
Thaxll'ssyllia: (love your response) Dragon build with cleric levels.....considered that, but figured a pure cleric has the main role of buffing a party, so it wouldn't be necessary. Then again, never played multiplayer. 70 AB won't hit my dragon btw(if i equip +5 medium to heavy armor, 95+ AC). A battle between that dragon and mine would be like a battle between two maxed out f2p players on runescape (^.^)
I have tried a max spell penetration and spell DC druid, with maximized stonehold and storm of vengeance...maybe it's just the NPCs with 1000+ health, but it never seems to do enough damage...maybe I'm too used to wail of the banshee...
(0.0) 22d10 damage with dragon breath...even if most opponents make the save, isn't that still gonna deal on average 100 to 120 dmg per round (with haste of course)? Well, that calculation was the main reason i took improved expertise.
Hmm...never looked at Champion of Torm...but I really needed those shifter levels for Rakshasa shape; otherwise archers would snipe it to death in the corridors (^_^;)
Yeah I guess it was wrong to say "no one seems to be doing it right", was high on my ego that day.
Thanks for the build search engine!
Magical Master: Darn, i thought spell resistance of 40 was good. Then i looked at nwn.wikia...apparently any mostly pure spell caster can beat the spell resistance...
Grimnir77: Darn, thought i listed discipline as an essential skill. As for IKD...does +4 KD check really mean that much difference?
Not sure what a knight of yore is, but 70 AB isn't going to hit this dragon :p, i mean, the AC goes to 95+ when I actually wear something, higher if a friendly cleric is around. Holy Avenger isn't going to work, unless you're a pure paladin or something (spell resistance 40, and you gotta hit me first :p)
Me: I tried to maintain at least 24 druid levels to get full benefit from Owl's insight. The other build I was initially prepared to post was 37 druid, 1 monk and 2 shadowdancer. Hipsing, more defense, I'd LOVE to see someone dispel this guy, but dragon is nerfed and no more infinite ice storms :(, and you get stuck in corridors, and all that jazz. I mainly want to get a build that simply won't die. I don't care if it can't kill, just want a build that has less than .1% chance of dying in any fair to slightly imba situation (cause of course, 22 player controlled epic characters is going to kill anything). If there's such a build which isn't a dragon build, i'd love to hear it, cause at this point in time, i am satisfied with nothing but dragon builds.
Please continue bashing!
darn, just found out that armor class doesn't count into merging, but 93 AC is good enough to counter 70 AB no?
Me: I tried to maintain at least 24 druid levels to get full benefit from Owl's insight.
Good.
Quote: The other build I was initially prepared to post was 37 druid, 1 monk and 2 shadowdancer. Hipsing, more defense, I'd LOVE to see someone dispel this guy
Mord's from a level 40 caster? Hell, Mord's from a 35+ caster?
Quote: but dragon is nerfed and no more infinite ice storms , and you get stuck in corridors, and all that jazz.
No infinite Ice Storms, no, but more ice storms that are stronger from Druid, dragon only loses breath weapon effectiveness, which ain't that great regardless.
Quote: I mainly want to get a build that simply won't die. I don't care if it can't kill, just want a build that has less than .1% chance of dying in any fair to slightly imba situation (cause of course, 22 player controlled epic characters is going to kill anything).
Whether that will happen is completely dependent on environment. In standard NWN, a mage will time stop + IGMS x 2 + time stop + IGMS x 2 = 960 damage that you can't do anything about. Nighty night.
Dragon Shape may also be nerfed elsewhere and/or druid + monk banned and other things.
darn, just found out that armor class doesn't count into merging, but 93 AC is good enough to counter 70 AB no?
You still seemingly need to find out that dragons are huge creatures which suffer from a -2 AC (and AB too) penalty due to their size. Your Imp Exp AC is 86 and hence a magic armor +5 will bring you to 91 AC.
Wizard dragons can benefit from EMA which, as a buff, will contribute also armor AC enhancement and from a possibly capped DEX in addition to the other factors counted in here, for a total of 100 AC. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Dragon build with cleric levels.....considered that, but figured a pure cleric has the main role of buffing a party, so it wouldn't be necessary. Then again, never played multiplayer.
You have to consider that some of the best buffs affect the caster only.
Quote: 70 AB won't hit my dragon btw(if i equip +5 medium to heavy armor, 95+ AC). A battle between that dragon and mine would be like a battle between two maxed out f2p players on runescape (^.^)
Neither you will hit that dragon but on 20s (unless flatfooted), but the other dragon will have a higher damage output thanks to buffs (limiting ourselves to melee). But then again, the PvP arguments are not an all encompassing measure of a build's worth (if they were, there's one build which rules them all) so we'd better abandon them.
Anyhow, the Druid 28-ish/Shifter 10/Monk 2-ish split going for Rakshasa and Dragon forms is a good and known build as the linked similar builds show. Nothing really new under the sun.
Quote: Not sure what a knight of yore is, but 70 AB isn't going to hit this dragon , i mean, the AC goes to 95+ when I actually wear something, higher if a friendly cleric is around.
Not really, the friendly cleric can do little for you AC wise apart, possibly, pumping your Dex assuming he has the right domain.
Quote: Holy Avenger isn't going to work, unless you're a pure paladin or something (spell resistance 40, and you gotta hit me first )
It's not going to work because it has been uber nerfed in 1.69, before it would have dispelled the heck outta you on a hit.. and pure paladin was not needed , it was based on character level. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
You still seemingly need to find out that dragons are huge creatures which suffer from a -2 AC (and AB too) penalty due to their size. Your Imp Exp AC is 86 and hence a magic armor +5 will bring you to 91 AC.
Wizard dragons can benefit from EMA which, as a buff, will contribute also armor AC enhancement and from a possibly capped DEX in addition to the other factors counted in here, for a total of 100 AC.
Woah, are we talking about the extended version of the spell 'mage armor'? Because armor bonuses don't usually stack, and mage armor looks like it'll only give an increase of 2 AC: Barkskin overrides one point, the 20+ dodge bonus cap removes another.
Yeah I did note that the size counts as a negative modifier, but I only recently found out the changes don't appear on the character sheet. Took some time to realize this since the strongest NPC spawns in that character builder module are also huge....
I did see the dragon kin build which had wizard levels in it (think it was druid 18, 1 monk and 21 wizard), and I honestly don't see how wizard buffs would achieve a higher AC than this current build. It would be helpful if i could see a list of essential wizard buffs; aside from improved invisibility, i don't see much use in the other spells counted as essential here: Click Here
I am trying to get improved invisibility for the dragon. So far:
26 druid levels to get infinite elemental shape, and monopolize on that owl's insight bonus... 9 assassin levels to get 9 real minutes of improved invisibility along with death attack... 5 monk levels to get that +1 AC and 10% increase in speed...
Yeah, I know thrax did something similar, I'll remember to cite next time (^_^)
However, I lose the effectiveness of my breath attack, the Rakshasa shape benefits...and there's some opportunity cost (lol economics) in not being able to get HIPS...
I am also interested in this cleric/monk build here: Click Here
However I could not see how cleric buffs achieve an unbuffed AC of 84 naked.
Woah, are we talking about the extended version of the spell 'mage armor'? Because armor bonuses don't usually stack, and mage armor looks like it'll only give an increase of 2 AC: Barkskin overrides one point, the 20+ dodge bonus cap removes another.
Epic Mage Armor.
Quote: Yeah I did note that the size counts as a negative modifier, but I only recently found out the changes don't appear on the character sheet. Took some time to realize this since the strongest NPC spawns in that character builder module are also huge....
Never trust the sheet
Ahh epic mage armor!
Did a quick check in the difference between AC values with and without epic mage armor. Apparently, if druid could select epic mage armor, I would only get +5 AC bonus (-_-;)
However...40 minutes of extended improve invisibility...owl's wisdom should stack with owl's insight...endurance...cat's grace....any other long term benefits for epic wizard dragon?
Woah, are we talking about the extended version of the spell 'mage armor'? Because armor bonuses don't usually stack, and mage armor looks like it'll only give an increase of 2 AC: Barkskin overrides one point, the 20+ dodge bonus cap removes another.
Epic Mage Armor.
It is a feat that you can take. It gives +5 natural AC, +5 armor AC, +5 dodge AC (won't add further than the +20 from the form), and +5 deflection AC. Requires 26 ranks in spellcraft and epic levels in wizard, sorcerer, or palemaster (15 PM to be precise).
Meh, like i said, i have zero access to multiplayer, so i've only really tested this out against NPCs from custom modules...
Dragon build with cleric levels.....considered that, but figured a pure cleric has the main role of buffing a party, so it wouldn't be necessary. Then again, never played multiplayer.
Where shall i begin... I was your friend til you made such an ameteurish comment like that! I wonder what you'd think AFTER i take my pure cleric and take out your dragon without even breaking a sweat? Oh.. right. Yours is invincible. roflmao
Clerics are THE class in the game. There is no other class that comes close to them, and trust me, i HAVE played multi player worlds where you need party's of 10 or more PEOPLE to get thru, and ive taken my "buffer" to save fighters, wms, wizards, sorcs, and just about anything else (cept SD's as they can HIPS and slink back to safety!).
for the record, i have NEVER been a party buffer, other than a few cursory spells to people i liked. NEVER has a party been upset with my play style as a cleric cuz it was always ME that cleared the areas faster than anyone else (cept the death wizards or sorcs!).
One post and 2 pissed off ECBers.. nicely done!
For the record, i am not mad. I know that 99.9% of players think of clerics the way that is posted above. I actually played with a dude one time who couldnt understand the POWER of a cleric with dev crit. That pooor soul. I find it almost laughable that people are still ignorant of this issue since i have been spouting the powers for 3 YEARS or more. Oh well. Me thinks clerics are the best kept secret in a game that is nearing a decade old! _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Quote: by kevinxiaowis Yeah, I know thrax did something similar, I'll remember to cite next time (^_^)
It's Thax, not thrax.
A note, here in the guild we never read stats from the Character Sheet, it turns out to be very flawed. For example, the character sheet does not count for capped bonuses. Say, you're a dragon, which gets +20 Dodge AC, and every type of AC gets capped at +20, so when you Haste yourself the Character Sheet sums it up but if you check the feedback rolls, you're not really working with that AC. It's easier to notice buffing AB with a Cleric, since they get enough buffs to go over +20, the character sheet says your AB is higher than what it is in reality. Shapeshifting screws a lot the character sheet as well.
The thing about PvP is that there is this cool build called Exhalted Sorcerer which is basically a Sorcerer / Paladin / Monk which gets really good saves thanks to paladin and Evasion thanks to Monk, along with the best offensive caster around, so that build kills a lot in PvP. Once you fight an Exhalted Sorcerer that buffs himself with Epic Warding (man I hate that buff) and Epic Mage Armor you will know real pain. As Kail said, it's useless to compare every build in PvP, we would all end playing Exhalted Sorcerers if winning is the only goal, but knowing there's no invincible build is a start.
You can't just stand by AC. If you use Improved Expertise to get 90+ AC you won't hit an enemy with 60, so that's missing rolls on both parties, a battle of attrition, and face it, those are not fun. Your high HP is good in a battle of attrition but I believe you can still be easily defeated by a Dwarven Defender, his base DR will outmatch yours unless you're on a low-enough environment so that his weapon becomes useless. Many builds can get the "uber-high AC you can't hit" drill, in fact, I believe a Rogue / Wizard / Pale Master actually does it better thanks to Improved Invisibility and Epic Dodge which makes him conceal 50% and evade the first hit that lands every round, it's absolutely horrible to fight those guys in melee.
All around, dragons rock in low magical environments (typically +5 enhancement available or less), because enemies can't get weapons that breach the dragon's DR nor buff AB enough to hit you, so you own in melee fights. In high magical environments, (let's say +15 or higher) your advantage starts to drop because weapons get ridiculous damage bonuses and your claws haven't improved a bit. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Did a quick check in the difference between AC values with and without epic mage armor. Apparently, if druid could select epic mage armor, I would only get +5 AC bonus (-_-;)
However...40 minutes of extended improve invisibility...owl's wisdom should stack with owl's insight...endurance...cat's grace....any other long term benefits for epic wizard dragon?
If I may tempt you, a bard 6/PM 16/druid 18 dragon. Palemaster gives AC bonuses of its own and immunity to crits, stun plus allows you to take epic mage armor and epic warding. Bard gives improved invisibility and many of the basic ability buffs, tumble class skill and UMD. Note that you must take a bard level after PM levels to access spells from slots the PM levels make available.
Edited By WhiZard on 10/06/09 03:14
Quote: Posted 10/06/09 02:52 (GMT) -- avado
Where shall i begin... I was your friend til you made such an ameteurish comment like that! I wonder what you'd think AFTER i take my pure cleric and take out your dragon without even breaking a sweat? Oh.. right. Yours is invincible. roflmao
Clerics are THE class in the game. There is no other class that comes close to them, and trust me, i HAVE played multi player worlds where you need party's of 10 or more PEOPLE to get thru, and ive taken my "buffer" to save fighters, wms, wizards, sorcs, and just about anything else (cept SD's as they can HIPS and slink back to safety!).
for the record, i have NEVER been a party buffer, other than a few cursory spells to people i liked. NEVER has a party been upset with my play style as a cleric cuz it was always ME that cleared the areas faster than anyone else (cept the death wizards or sorcs!).
One post and 2 pissed off ECBers.. nicely done!
For the record, i am not mad. I know that 99.9% of players think of clerics the way that is posted above. I actually played with a dude one time who couldnt understand the POWER of a cleric with dev crit. That pooor soul. I find it almost laughable that people are still ignorant of this issue since i have been spouting the powers for 3 YEARS or more. Oh well. Me thinks clerics are the best kept secret in a game that is nearing a decade old!
Ah...so clerics don't usually party buff...
Yup I do have interest in cleric/monk build right now, I take it you know which buff spells achieve 80+ AC?
Cleric with dev crit is beastly (^_^), haven't actually tried it, but i know 35 war domain cleric adds 8 to attack rolls, 'nuff said.
Yup I'm an amateur, until I graduate and get out of China, no multiplayer for me (-.-;). But i'm prepared to jump in strong (^_^)
Quote: posted by Thax The thing about PvP is that there is this cool build called Exhalted Sorcerer which is basically a Sorcerer / Paladin / Monk which gets really good saves thanks to paladin and Evasion thanks to Monk, along with the best offensive caster around, so that build kills a lot in PvP. Once you fight an Exhalted Sorcerer that buffs himself with Epic Warding (man I hate that buff) and Epic Mage Armor you will know real pain. As Kail said, it's useless to compare every build in PvP, we would all end playing Exhalted Sorcerers if winning is the only goal, but knowing there's no invincible build is a start.
You can't just stand by AC. If you use Improved Expertise to get 90+ AC you won't hit an enemy with 60, so that's missing rolls on both parties, a battle of attrition, and face it, those are not fun. Your high HP is good in a battle of attrition but I believe you can still be easily defeated by a Dwarven Defender, his base DR will outmatch yours unless you're on a low-enough environment so that his weapon becomes useless. Many builds can get the "uber-high AC you can't hit" drill, in fact, I believe a Rogue / Wizard / Pale Master actually does it better thanks to Improved Invisibility and Epic Dodge which makes him conceal 50% and evade the first hit that lands every round, it's absolutely horrible to fight those guys in melee.
All around, dragons rock in low magical environments (typically +5 enhancement available or less), because enemies can't get weapons that breach the dragon's DR nor buff AB enough to hit you, so you own in melee fights. In high magical environments, (let's say +15 or higher) your advantage starts to drop because weapons get ridiculous damage bonuses and your claws haven't improved a bit.
Thanks for the tip about character sheet! Anything substitutes for the character sheet I can trust, or do I just have to keep looking at the script?
Played exalted sorcerer, was pissed off it didn't work against undead and monks, and was limited by spells per day, so I left it. On retrospect, those were cruddy reasons to ditch the exalted sorcerer.
(0.0) didn't realize there were other ways to get uber high AC. Also didn't realize that damage reduction and other stuff could be as good a defense as high AC...
Well, my fantasy of a perfect build has been crushed :'(, I still want to post a variation of shadow dragon on, after that, moving onto clerics (^_^)
Quote: Posted 10/06/09 02:52 (GMT) -- avado
Clerics are THE class in the game. There is no other class that comes close to them, and trust me, i HAVE played multi player worlds where you need party's of 10 or more PEOPLE to get thru, and ive taken my "buffer" to save fighters, wms, wizards, sorcs, and just about anything else (cept SD's as they can HIPS and slink back to safety!).
I take it you're referring to PvE? And it all depends on the design of the world, Avado.
Quote: Played exalted sorcerer, was pissed off it didn't work against undead and monks, and was limited by spells per day, so I left it. On retrospect, those were cruddy reasons to ditch the exalted sorcerer.
Why doesn't it work against undead? And just damage shield the monks.
And yes, those were cruddy reasons
Quote: (0.0) didn't realize there were other ways to get uber high AC. Also didn't realize that damage reduction and other stuff could be as good a defense as high AC...
In a +5 world with haste, a bard/shadowdancer/PM can hit about 100 AC if dex based in improved expertise with epic dodge. Con based bard/fighter/PM can hit about 93 or so and have near 1k hp along with 9 damage reduction and crit immunity.
And yes, DDs can walk around with 30 damage reduction if they want to. Dex based epic dodging characters can be nightmares as well.
Quote: Well, my fantasy of a perfect build has been crushed :'(, I still want to post a variation of shadow dragon on, after that, moving onto clerics (^_^)
Repeat after us: no such thing as a perfect build
Not to mention most of the builds here aren't modified to whatever mod or PW you're playing on, which often changes some things around.
, and you get stuck in corridors, and all that jazz.
Well, it looked like his level 20 was shifter 9, if I counted correctly...
Generic Rakshasa (Dru 27 / Shf 10 / Mnk 3)
Ahh epic mage armor!