Pros: Undispellable except by Mordekainen, (thus casting greater dispelling on self will not remove buffs). Most buffs cannot be breached. This build is immensely help by item property bonuses to skills and ability scores. With just a +6 to perform and bard song, the level 25 curse song can be used to reduce the enemy AC by 6.
Cons: Feat Starved, no cleave, no heavy armor, only simple weapons, moderate at detecting stealth.
Adjustments: The spells selected assume no access to these spells/effects from UMD. An item that gives trueseeing (for example) may negate the need for knowing see invisibility ultravision, and amplify, allowing one to take eagle’s splendor, cat’s grace, and charm person (for merchants) as well as spend the listen skill points in another skill like appraise(for example). Adjust the spell selection according to the environment.
Also you may wish to remove skill focus: perform in order to take weapon proficiency: martial and make use of the halberd instead of the spear. The focus on perform was an attempt (which supplemented by gear) is likely to reach at least the level 25 curse song (and possibly the level 25 bard song) in which another point in AC (or loss for enemies) is given.
Warning: This build is designed for a module that supports horses. The assumptions made suppose that the default Bioware scripts for this are used. Different PWs may handle horses differently.
-- Aside to Pulse Cap: This build uses a class that is not currently in your engine. Will you be able to add this class to the selection?
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 11/18/09 22:52
whiz i know you know.. i dont! What does pdk give this build?
Quote: Posted 11/07/09 04:33 (GMT) -- avado
whiz i know you know.. i dont! What does pdk give this build?
Mostly the fear spell (strength based) and the ride skill. It is one of the highest (non-dragon shape) strength builds to up the DC. However, I will admit, a DC range of 29-35 is still fairly low.
I so want to like PDK. I give every class a chance, try not to discriminate, and yet this class just has so few redeeming features. I have kicked around with a Druid/cot/pdk and even a Druid/Barb/PDK which were fun enough, but the short durations and waaay too limited uses per day of the PDK feats means it is just really hard to justify other than for minor utility, quirky fun or RP use. However this is not really the place for a pdk dissection so onto the build at hand..
I agree with chasing the ride and fear synergy with a 2 hander str build. Spear is fine, i wouldn't bother chasing halberd.
Now, call me crazy but hear me out and consider this alternative..
I would leave bard at 20, and up RDD to 15.
- This nets you +1 permanent AC - a bonus feat (maybe epic prowess for +1 ab ) - a few extra HP that a frontline meele needs - eases the pressure of getting 75 perform, 50 is much easier to achieve .. .. you no longer need the extra 25 perform to affect a temporary -1 ac via curse if you took epic prowess - drop SF:Perform and pickup Knockdown (or if rests are far apart, extra music)
I would consider dropping Str to 15, Up Dex to 12.
Then I would chase taunt. Replace ESF:Perform with ESF:Taunt
I think with this configuration you have a reasonably solid meele build full of bardy goodness, able to clean out the masses with relative ease, and when he goes warp-speed along with taunt you can penetrate respectable ac to take out bosses.
Edit: Ends up with something like this :
Bard(20), Red Dragon Disciple(15), Purple Dragon Knight(5), Human
I so want to like PDK. I give every class a chance, try not to discriminate, and yet this class just has so few redeeming features. I have kicked around with a Druid/cot/pdk and even a Druid/Barb/PDK which were fun enough, but the short durations and waaay too limited uses per day of the PDK feats means it is just really hard to justify other than for minor utility, quirky fun or RP use. However this is not really the place for a pdk dissection so onto the build at hand..
I agree with chasing the ride and fear synergy with a 2 hander str build. Spear is fine, i wouldn't bother chasing halberd.
Now, call me crazy but hear me out and consider this alternative..
I would leave bard at 20, and up RDD to 15.
- This nets you +1 permanent AC - a bonus feat (maybe epic prowess for +1 ab ) - a few extra HP that a frontline meele needs - eases the pressure of getting 75 perform, 50 is much easier to achieve .. .. you no longer need the extra 25 perform to affect a temporary -1 ac via curse if you took epic prowess - drop SF:Perform and pickup Knockdown (or if rests are far apart, extra music)
I appreciate your comments. Reducing strength and getting prowess nets +0 AB -(1 to 2) damage and -1 to fear DC (possibly gaining +1 AC if equipment/spells are not sufficient to meet the max dex AC of the armor). Going 5 more RDD and 5 less bard nets about -4 to skills (about a -1 to ride AC) +1 to AC, and 30HP, with less duration less bard song, and the ability to be dispelled (25% chance per buff) by anyone with greater dispelling.
I was debating between 15 RDD 20 Bard and 10 RDD 25 Bard quite a bit when making this build, and decided the latter was more promising.
One thing I was tempted to do if I lowered strength by two (one initial one less great strength) for one epic feat and +2 dex was to take Epic Skill Focus: Tumble. This would provide riding tumble checks of 43 (ranks) + 10 (epic skill focus) - 50 (ride penalty) - 2 (armor check penalty) + dex modifier + skill bonus(from bard song) which doesn't take too much item property wise to reach the magic 14 (no attacks of opportunity from movement). +1 perform (achievable with eagle's splendor) gives +11 from bard song, cat's grace gives +2 to dex (which is the magic 14).
The one major drawback of reducing strength is that for each point the fear DC is lowered, the less the PDK investment is worth it when compared to barbarian.
Edited By WhiZard on 11/11/09 02:47
Quote: Posted 11/11/09 00:53 (GMT) -- jumjones
I have kicked around with a Druid/cot/pdk and even a Druid/Barb/PDK which were fun enough, ...
I am surprised you didn't mention the druid/monk/PDK (a 60 strength (fully buffed) dragon shape with a high AC and the highest DC PDK fear spell (in addition to being a heavy wisdom caster)).
I was under the impression that mounted combat was capped at +6ac (= 40 ride - 10 x 5). Not sure where i got that from, so i actually assigned more skills than i theoretically should have.. they dont call me mr 80% for nuthin...
Dispelling .. yeah i agree, it can be a pain, but the bard is pretty much non-reliant on the buffs it doesnt really matter that much, i see them as gravy. Pretty simple to recast the important one imho (displacement) if required. I should have mentioned that some ppl may prefer still over extend for this reason.. this i think is very much environment and player dependent, but i dont think it breaks the build.
I guess i like my toons to lean more towards being as well-rounded as possible, hence going for KD, taunt, and easing back on the bard lvls. KD especially cos spear = large, which i like vs casters and ppl holding small weapons .. so i guess kd introduces slightly better synergy with the build concept, which would be harder to do with retaining sf:perform.
so for me, KD+Taunt > chance of greater dispel
Dunno why, but the 20/15/5 split appeals more to me .. more 'dragonny', more options.
re druid/monk/pdk .. i have built a *meh* disposition to monk draggys.. been there, done that, bought the crappy t-shirt. I like to explore the quirkier side nowdays to keep the interest alive.
Im still very much learning though, and for me its more about trial and error than builds thought out to the nth degree.
Keep the builds comin, would like to see more ideas around pdk, gimped as they are.
Quote: Posted 11/11/09 22:57 (GMT) -- jumjones
I guess i like my toons to lean more towards being as well-rounded as possible, hence going for KD, taunt, and easing back on the bard lvls. KD especially cos spear = large, which i like vs casters and ppl holding small weapons .. so i guess kd introduces slightly better synergy with the build concept, which would be harder to do with retaining sf:perform.
so for me, KD+Taunt > chance of greater dispel
Looking back at your allocation, it looks like you substituted taunt for tumble (-8AC there) (as tumble AC comes from ranks it is not reduced with the -50 penalty). Knockdown gets no benefit from weapon size (though disarm does). As far as undispellable buffs, any party will really like a good meleer that can spin off an undispellable 25 round mass haste.
Argh, how did i miss that .. oh thats right .. im an amateur. I thank you for taking me back to the learning tree.
I orginally started with 16 Int, and had tumble in there. I find it funny that Tumble would stack with Mounted Combat - i"m picturing those trick riders at rodeos that jump all over their horses.
This version is fading in front of my eyes, so sad, too bad.
However, just want to run this past you guys.. Given that we have the taunt situational AB boost vs bosses, is it fair to drop str even further? Is the build just getting too far away from the original concept? I think the once-per-rest fear ability is relatively gimmiky at best, so by lowering the DC by 2 from your original concept, is it a deal breaker?
By dropping str to 14(34) and upping Int to 16(18) and insert ESF:Tumble as per your idea to aim for a modified tumble of 14, we get ..
Roger: "Hey Bill, check out this dude" Bill: "Thats a _big_ spear he"s carrying there Roger" Roger: "Think he knows how to use it?" Bill: "He"s not applying to join US is he?" Roger: "Did you see that?" Bill: "What?" Roger: "Hes got wings" Bill: "No" Roger: "I swear ... check it out" Bill: "Damn he does too" Roger: "Shhh .. damn .. did you see the look he just gave you" Bill: "Man hes creepy" .. .. Roger: "Hes walking to the registrar" .. .. Roger: "This should be funny, ole Mabel aint gonna like the look of him" .. .. Bill: "Dammit he just looked at me again!" Roger: "Well stop starin at 'im you doofus" Bill: "I cant help it" Roger: "I wish he would stop doin that thing with his shoulder" Bill: "Thats a nasty twitch hes got there" Bill: "He just doesnt look .. quite .. all there.." Bill: "Rog.." Roger: "Yeah?" Bill: "Lets get outta here" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "Not that we couldnt take him" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "I just dont wanna cause a scene" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "I mean i just dont wanna embarrass this guy" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "lets go" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "Yeah"
The Slightly-less-valiant, Dragon tainted Knight who says "Nöö"
- In a pinch, he can go with a (mace?) and tower shield for an even more impressive defense in order to beat a hasty retreat. - If youre not worried about aoo then drop the ESF:Tumble and you have a free epic feat (ESF:Conc, Epic Reflex etc) - you could also easily drop Toughness to fit in Martial Weapons, IKD, Expertise etc
Maybe we just let him pass into the annals of history as that funky dude who applied, the CV looked ok, but didnt quite make the cut..
PS.. didnt really mean to hijack your build .. just wanted to explore the possibilities, looked like the variant might have had some legs, then it fizzed a bit.
Edited By jumjones on 11/13/09 00:03
Quote: Posted 11/12/09 23:54 (GMT) -- jumjones
This version is fading in front of my eyes, so sad, too bad.
I think the once-per-rest fear ability is relatively gimmiky at best, so by lowering the DC by 2 from your original concept, is it a deal breaker?
As mentioned before the pdk fear is really the only shining factor of PDK over the barbarian.
Quote: - In a pinch, he can go with a (mace?) and tower shield for an even more impressive defense in order to beat a hasty retreat.
Harder to make the tumble check with a tower shield
Quote: PS.. didnt really mean to hijack your build .. just wanted to explore the possibilities, looked like the variant might have had some legs, then it fizzed a bit.
I'm still somewhat set on the current form. The only possible change that I really see for improvement is upping the tumble. However, most of the factors for this build are heavily influenced by what gear is available. (Boots of tumbling, for example, could make the epic skill focus in tumble a pure waste).
Edited By WhiZard on 11/13/09 00:23
Quote: Posted 11/13/09 00:22 (GMT) -- WhiZard
As mentioned before the pdk fear is really the only shining factor of PDK over the barbarian.
.. talk about a nerfed class when its one redeeming feature is a once-per-day novelty
Quote: Harder to make the tumble check with a tower shield
Agreed
Quote: I'm still somewhat set on the current form. The only possible change that I really see for improvement is upping the tumble. However, most of the factors for this build are heavily influenced by what gear is available. (Boots of tumbling, for example, could make the epic skill focus in tumble a pure waste).
.. and Agreed.
Original is where it's at.
Anyone else had a look under the hood and see anything else that can be tweaked?
I have built a similar character myself, Bard 26/RDD 10/PDK 4 with 42 STR and 45 AB. It's a pity fear is a 1/day ability, PDK lvls/day would be a good starting point. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
guys, whats PDK??
just kidding.. really wonder though, how after all that bioware COULD have done for us, that this miserable class was the highlight of their last patch.. pity.
OH, and this COULD be stickied as one of the BEST discussions on PDK i have ever seen. Intelligent! Pointed! And NO ONE got mad at anyone! Perfect for stickyyining!
Quote: Posted 11/12/09 23:54 (GMT) -- jumjones Roger: "Hey Bill, check out this dude" Bill: "Thats a _big_ spear he"s carrying there Roger" Roger: "Think he knows how to use it?" Bill: "He"s not applying to join US is he?" Roger: "Did you see that?" Bill: "What?" Roger: "Hes got wings" Bill: "No" Roger: "I swear ... check it out" Bill: "Damn he does too" Roger: "Shhh .. damn .. did you see the look he just gave you" Bill: "Man hes creepy" .. .. Roger: "Hes walking to the registrar" .. .. Roger: "This should be funny, ole Mabel aint gonna like the look of him" .. .. Bill: "Dammit he just looked at me again!" Roger: "Well stop starin at 'im you doofus" Bill: "I cant help it" Roger: "I wish he would stop doin that thing with his shoulder" Bill: "Thats a nasty twitch hes got there" Bill: "He just doesnt look .. quite .. all there.." Bill: "Rog.." Roger: "Yeah?" Bill: "Lets get outta here" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "Not that we couldnt take him" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "I just dont wanna cause a scene" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "I mean i just dont wanna embarrass this guy" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "lets go" Roger: "Yeah" Bill: "Yeah"
ROTFL _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
I have built a similar character myself, Bard 26/RDD 10/PDK 4 with 42 STR and 45 AB. It's a pity fear is a 1/day ability, PDK lvls/day would be a good starting point.
Haaaaaang on ...
By skimping on PDK 5 you are missing out on -> +1 fear DC -> FINAL STAND !! -> Ability to max ride
I mean cmon .. whatever are you gonna do with an extra bonus epic bard feat in place of once a day fear DC +1 and once a day FINAL STAND temporary + 2d10 hp ?????
Are you outta your mind?
I guess you can max ride if you delay the last pdk lvl to the end, but you give up APR 4 and 1 BAB.
Is there no end to the torture that some twisted bioware genious has inflicted on us ???
i hesitate to use emotes .. but ..
The good news is the vast majority of the PDK stuff can be rescripted.
I have built a similar character myself, Bard 26/RDD 10/PDK 4 with 42 STR and 45 AB. It's a pity fear is a 1/day ability, PDK lvls/day would be a good starting point.
Haaaaaang on ...
By skimping on PDK 5 you are missing out on -> +1 fear DC -> FINAL STAND !! -> Ability to max ride
I mean cmon .. whatever are you gonna do with an extra bonus epic bard feat in place of once a day fear DC +1 and once a day FINAL STAND temporary + 2d10 hp ?????
Are you outta your mind?
I guess you can max ride if you delay the last pdk lvl to the end, but you give up APR 4 and 1 BAB.
Is there no end to the torture that some twisted bioware genious has inflicted on us ???
i hesitate to use emotes .. but ..
Oh well, I built it in 5 minutes and never optimized it. A 1/day ability with a lowish DC is not something that can hold my interest longer than that _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
By skimping on PDK 5 you are missing out on -> +1 fear DC -> FINAL STAND !! -> Ability to max ride
I mean cmon .. whatever are you gonna do with an extra bonus epic bard feat in place of once a day fear DC +1 and once a day FINAL STAND temporary + 2d10 hp ?????
Are you outta your mind?
I guess you can max ride if you delay the last pdk lvl to the end, but you give up APR 4 and 1 BAB.
Is there no end to the torture that some twisted bioware genious has inflicted on us ???
i hesitate to use emotes .. but ..
Oh well, I built it in 5 minutes and never optimized it. A 1/day ability with a lowish DC is not something that can hold my interest longer than that
Yah .. i feel bad for taking up peoples valuable time with this ..
This class was made for a specific module that has a low level cap. less than 20. in those low level worlds it may shine. Somebody should consider making a level 20 build instead.
This class was made for a specific module that has a low level cap. less than 20. in those low level worlds it may shine. Somebody should consider making a level 20 build instead.
I would add more emphasis to make the statement it will shine. A level 20 build can definitely benefit from a fear spell that can go through spell mantles. Try the human bard/RDD/PDK, for example. With a level 20 strength of 30 + buffs, the DC (25 + 1/2 buff) is pretty difficult to make a save against. Or take wizard 17/PDK 3, polymorph into an adult red dragon and cast an even higher DC (26 + 1/2 buff) PDK fear spell in that form.
Or druid/monk/PDK 18/5/2 with a (maximum) DC of 40 by level 25.
There is a lv 20/30 Guild that was created long ago for builds. If memory serves, Grim started it. Alas, a class specifically designed for low magic worlds excites me almost as much as root canals without any meds, and it really isnt very epic.
All this class really needs is scaling durations.
