As impossible as it sounds, I haven't seen this combination of classes at all so far, so here is a first attempt.
The general idea of this character is a charming spy/thief/assassin who can still be mighty in a one-on-one confrontation against all but the most determined foes.
Description Maliciously endearing. Wickedness pouring from behind a dry smile wrought with painfully curled lips.
Biography Not with comfort do I recall my early days. My sleep more bereft of restfulness than the black wastelands of my first home are lacking of warmth. Tormented by a hated consience that I attack each day, only to have it gnaw at me again, compounded further by the failed attempts at moral suicide.
Among what parallels for gentry in the upper circles of dark society I was born, and taught my first lessons. Coarse blood, cold bones, and calm skin. And then nothing.
In grand Neverwinter are my second first memories. As if born again I found myself in the service of the Kingdom, instilled with the virtues and principles of a noble God; a blinding righteousness to pierce the dead emptiness of a heart afore-unused. All memories of the previous darkness were nothing more than a shadowy dream unheeded.
There I served faithfully, if faithfulness is a borrowed skin that may be shed, until the dread vision came to me. Of this I will not speak, but to say that the mark of Bane is a binding tie, and in one lifetime unquenched. My past was not unpainfully restored to me, my present now more the dream, and my purpose in part revealed.
The shadows are mine to pave, the walls bear my ears, the vaults hide my prints, what is missed has found my fingers, and those who are missed have found my wrath. The God that holds a purchase, however small on my heart is heedless of the one that blackens my blood. Twice blessed and cursed is the agent that serves two sides but cannot choose one, and more than death lies in the middle.
Double Agent Paladin(16), Rogue(22), Blackguard(2) Human, PvM Playable 1-40 but more useful from ~Level 9 Lawful Evil Deities: Bane & Torm (Enemies yes, but it works for this particular RP backstory )
Put skills on wherever you can, but favour Persuade and Tumble over the sneaky skills whilst you are still pre-epic.
*Note Please - This is my first time trying out the CBC so if anything is not quite right, please let me know.*
Built mostly for RP goodness and apparent uniqueness, this character can still hold his/her own in a dungeon of your choosing.
The Good Decent sneak attack. High saves. Very decent buffed damage (Bulls Strength, Eagles Splendour, Aura of Glory, Divine Might & Shield) Buffed AC is pretty good. The complete sneaky skill set.
The Bad Low hitpoints Mediocre unbuffed AC Mediocre unbuffed AB
The Ugly There are two alignment changes. The second one being for the Discipline skill dump. If it's not that important to you then you can take that Paladin level pre-epic and do full Rogue past 20, leaving only the one alignment change. _________________ -"I told you not to put butter into the clockworks with a breadknife!" -"Well I couldn't put it in with a fork now could I?"
Edited By Angelis Dania on 12/13/09 10:58
WHAT! Why do you need 2 alignment changes for a DIs dump, when BG gets dis? It makes me VERY nervous about your abilities when you make suggestions like this...
Also, 2 BF? WHAT! There are a few PRC that give nice bonus for 2 lvls, but BG ISNT one of them! This makes no sense to me, but what do I know. After all, i was told that the game has changed so much. Whats next? WM taken for 2 lvls?
Please, next time, show some commitment to the idea you made. This looks like you did it to ONLY get the 2 charisma bonus to saves (which you did), which is cheap, from an RP sense.
The name of this build should be Cybil...
Edited By avado on 12/13/09 15:25
Quote: Posted 12/13/09 15:20 (GMT) -- avado
WHAT! Why do you need 2 alignment changes for a DIs dump, when BG gets dis? It makes me VERY nervous about your abilities when you make suggestions like this...
Also, 2 BF? WHAT! There are a few PRC that give nice bonus for 2 lvls, but BG ISNT one of them! This makes no sense to me, but what do I know. After all, i was told that the game has changed so much. Whats next? WM taken for 2 lvls?
Please, next time, show some commitment to the idea you made. This looks like you did it to ONLY get the 2 charisma bonus to saves (which you did), which is cheap, from an RP sense.
The name of this build should be Cybil...
Yes you are right. I should have thought of that.
I assume that by "BF" you meant "BG", of which 2 levels gives you dark blessing. If you'd taken the time to read the bio (which can also be taken as a measure of commitment), you'd see that the blessings of two deities is central to the RP side of the character.
Also, just because the build is thematic, that does not necessitate that no thought should be given to playability and effectiveness.
Lastly, is there anyway to change the title and details now? _________________ -"Have some more tea." -"I've had none so I can't have any more." -"You mean you can't have any less. It's very easy to have more than nothing, especially if you're poor."
Edited By Angelis Dania on 12/13/09 15:57
You invest in 2 alignment changes, which is ALOT, seeing that some pws dont allow them for balance reasons. ANyway, the ONLY reason for taking BG is for the exploit of 2 times the charisma bonus to saves. THat isnt new. And by commitment, i refered to the fact that you invested all the energy to switch to evil, for 2 lvls. That is not a commitment. Esp since you just went back again.
ANd no, i dont read stories. They bore me to no end.
Quote: Posted 12/13/09 15:20 (GMT) -- avado
Please, next time, show some commitment to the idea you made. This looks like you did it to ONLY get the 2 charisma bonus to saves (which you did), which is cheap, from an RP sense.
You get the full charisma bonus, not just 2. Which is a minimum of 10 in this case.
Quote: Posted 12/13/09 19:50 (GMT) -- avado
You invest in 2 alignment changes, which is ALOT, seeing that some pws dont allow them for balance reasons. ANyway, the ONLY reason for taking BG is for the exploit of 2 times the charisma bonus to saves. THat isnt new. And by commitment, i refered to the fact that you invested all the energy to switch to evil, for 2 lvls. That is not a commitment. Esp since you just went back again.
ANd no, i dont read stories. They bore me to no end.
I must have caught you on a really bad day avado. Else I've done something to offend your sensibilities.
At any rate, if I had of thought of your suggestion (which seems obvious now), I'd not have gone for the two alignment changes. But just because I didn't happen to think of something, doesn't mean I didn't put any thought into this.
Regarding the "new" factor, the idea there is a high sneaker, high saves, high melee damager, not just another Paladin/BG. Although with the gajillion builds so far, it's a bit hard to call anything new. _________________ -"Kindly leave the stage by the red door. There's a fifty foot drop on the other side!" -"But we're still good friends."
Please, next time, show some commitment to the idea you made. This looks like you did it to ONLY get the 2 charisma bonus to saves (which you did), which is cheap, from an RP sense.
You get the full charisma bonus, not just 2. Which is a minimum of 10 in this case.
By 2 i was refering to the FULL charisma bonus from Paladin AND the Charisma bonus from Blackguard. So, if what you are saying is true, its +20 MINIMUM. I thought it was too obvious to state. I guess not.
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 03:43 (GMT) -- avado
By 2 i was refering to the FULL charisma bonus from Paladin AND the Charisma bonus from Blackguard. So, if what you are saying is true, its +20 MINIMUM. I thought it was too obvious to state. I guess not.
Aye, +20 minimum.
And no, considering some servers modify blackguards/paladins to cap their save bonus at 1 save per level or something similar, it wasn't too obvious
A lawful Paladin pickpocket - I don't think I've seen that before!
The saves are very good and so is the AC with DS up. The character has several ways of dealing massive damage, especially DM and SA, but also GMW and DF.
The AB on the other hand is really too low to make this anything but a mob killer. You can increase the AB with +10 from GMW and DF giving +44, which is par with a normal fighter in mundane gear. But you will need a +6 weapon and DF to match the fighter if he gets a +1 weapon, and DF only lasts one turn. And the buffs count towards the +20 cap. Ok, you can self buff with Bull's too, but it doesn't solve the problem, and adds nothing to AB if potions of Bull's are ready available in the mod. Taking the Taunt skill will help some, but the AB will still be low.
I also miss Knockdown in the build. You invest a lot in SA and it would be great to be able to score repeated SAs against a prone enemy. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 10:53 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger
Taking the Taunt skill will help some, but the AB will still be low.
I also miss Knockdown in the build. You invest a lot in SA and it would be great to be able to score repeated SAs against a prone enemy.
Yes, Taunt would have been a better choice over perhaps Persuade for melee purposes, but the Persuade skill is part of the "Double Agent" theme.
As for knockdown, it would probably come to sacrificing Epic prowess (most likely), which might be a good trade-off except for 2 things. One, with the normally low AB, it wouldn't be too effective against boss-types, which is what it is mostly used for (I surmise). Secondly, I can't take IKD due to my INT score, so I can't even make up for it
I'm just mostly regretting now not doing what avado pointed out. Wishing I could delete this and repost it _________________ -"Have some wine." -"I don't see any wine." -"There isn't any, and you're too young." -"Then it wasn't very nice of you to offer it." -"It wasn't very nice of you to sit down uninvited."
By 2 i was refering to the FULL charisma bonus from Paladin AND the Charisma bonus from Blackguard. So, if what you are saying is true, its +20 MINIMUM. I thought it was too obvious to state. I guess not.
Aye, +20 minimum.
And no, considering some servers modify blackguards/paladins to cap their save bonus at 1 save per level or something similar, it wasn't too obvious
I dont think we design builds unique to any one server! Take it to generalities please, cuz that's all that matters.
Why not rogue 21/ paladin 17/black guard 2?
You get longer lasting spells (that are more difficult to dispel), an additional smite damage, and another 3rd level spell slot at the cost of 6 skill points.
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 15:47 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Why not rogue 21/ paladin 17/black guard 2?
You get longer lasting spells (that are more difficult to dispel), an additional smite damage, and another 3rd level spell slot at the cost of 6 skill points.
Even better. That's why I like this place. Amateurs get free lessons. _________________ -"In this world it's not what you know but who you know." -"I don't know either one of them."
How about this?
For saves sake (which are already very high) 17Paladin/3Rogue pre-epic could be improved.
Either by 16Paladin/4 Rogue (+1 Reflex) or 16Paladin/3Rogue/1 Blackguard (+2 Fortitude)
Edited By WhiZard on 12/14/09 19:29
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 19:28 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Either by 16Paladin/4 Rogue (+1 Reflex)
This means you have to take another paladin level in the epic levels and *then* start the alignment shift. If that's no concern, yeah, it would be slightly better.
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 19:28 (GMT) -- WhiZard
or 16Paladin/3Rogue/1 Blackguard (+2 Fortitude)
Which means you have to shift to evil and then shift back to good (and perhaps shift back to evil, though that wouldn't be needed).
My version means once you hit level 19 you have 4 levels to shift to evil, though you don't technically need to take the blackguard levels until level 38-39, come to think of it. YMMV.
This means you have to take another paladin level in the epic levels and *then* start the alignment shift. If that's no concern, yeah, it would be slightly better.
Well you can take both blackguard levels late and use the paladin level as the intermediate discipline dump. That leaves a good ten levels gap, much more than you left for the alignment change.
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 21:20 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Well you can take both blackguard levels late and use the paladin level as the intermediate discipline dump. That leaves a good ten levels gap, much more than you left for the alignment change.
Aye. I was assuming there was some RP reason for taking BG so soon, because mechanically speaking you might as well take it at levels 38-39.
For this build, I think dropping Improved Critical in exchange for Extend Spell would be worth it.
So the advantage of this version is greater hp, mundane ab+1, mundane dmg+1, mundane AC+1 (plus having only 1 alignment change, and what Whizard noted about the level split). Though I'm having a sneaking suspicion that I've missed an obvious advantage somewhere.
In exchange, You lose rogue at 12, leaving a larger level gap in skill dumps. The AC gained from DEX is lost with DS and less duration. The dmg gained from STR is lost with DM and less duration (AB is retained). Saves are lower. Sneak attack is lower. Persuade or possible Taunt skill goes with the lower INT score. TU is less effective. (not essential) Smite Evil is less effective. (not essential)
Also, regarding extend spell, I think that there are far too few spell slots/levels to reduce the range of spells for the purpose of extending.
More hp would be great, but the character is primarily a sneaker. Aside from that, I think you can still do what Whizard and avado suggested without sacrificing so much.
This could be done by taking Paladin at 19 & 20, BG at 21 & 39, and the rest to Rogue. There are two downsides to this however:
1. You now have to wait till 39 to double your save bonus. 2. The character does not "officially" have a contract with the darkside till very late in his career (RP). _________________ I'm a poor man your honour. I come before you full of remorse and malnutrition.
More hp would be great, but the character is primarily a sneaker.
Sure. On the flipside, 40% more base hit points is nice. And you could drop Con back to 8, raise int to 12, and raise Cha to 16 to start if you wanted.
2. The character does not "officially" have a contract with the darkside till very late in his career (RP).
Level 21 versus level 19 is that big of a deal?(/quote)
I meant if you went BG at 21 & 39. _________________ -"I don't understand. It was the best butter." -"Danish."
Right, so wouldn't he officially have a contract at level 21?
Quote: Posted 12/14/09 19:23 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger
You need Cleave to qualify for BG.
Thanks Mick. I realized my error after walking away from the computer earlier and have just now been able to get back on in hopes of correcting it.
Right, so wouldn't he officially have a contract at level 21?
Not the way I see it. A blessing to me is like a tick of approval. So when a God gives their blessing, they are basically saying "You are doing My work now.". Meaning Paladin Lvl 1 gets a blessing from a Good deity, and Blackguard Lvl 2 gets a blessing froma Bad deity.
This all comes down to how you want to RP it, so it's very subjective anyway. _________________ -"Well then I rest my case." -"Where?" -"Over there." *points to suitcases on the ground* -"...I know when I'm beaten."
You know, I used to come into this forum to look at people's creativity and admire builds and attempts to be unique. While it is difficult these days to be unique with all the builds that have been done over the years there are still little differences that make every build viable for sharing.
It used to be that appreciation was given for offerings, constructive criticism and helpful suggestions from the gurus.
Lately it seems that any builds or posts for that matter, are out there for the amusement of Avado's wrath and his distaste of everything that's not perfect in his eyes. Come on, critique is one thing but hey we don't have to get nasty.
Seriously, thank you for posting and I for one appreciate your submissions. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Using firefox and greasmonkey it's easy enough to filter out things you don't want to read. I've been doing it for years.
You know, I used to come into this forum to look at people's creativity and admire builds and attempts to be unique. While it is difficult these days to be unique with all the builds that have been done over the years there are still little differences that make every build viable for sharing.
It used to be that appreciation was given for offerings, constructive criticism and helpful suggestions from the gurus.
Lately it seems that any builds or posts for that matter, are out there for the amusement of Avado's wrath and his distaste of everything that's not perfect in his eyes. Come on, critique is one thing but hey we don't have to get nasty.
Seriously, thank you for posting and I for one appreciate your submissions.
Thanks! I was starting to get really nervous about posting anymore builds here, but I think I'll get around to it again soon.
As for avado, I think he has become quite detached from the game, seeing as he uninstalled it about 5 years ago and hasn't played it since.
I find that using the CBC, while brilliant and convenient, does not give you the same connection and inspiration as when you actually "make" your characters, outfit them, and test them out. Without the game, you're really just number crunching. _________________ -"That's very important! Write that down - 14, 15 and 16. Now subtract, multiply, and convert to grams and kilos." -"They're very slow." -"They should be able to do it in their heads!"
As for avado, I think he has become quite detached from the game, seeing as he uninstalled it about 5 years ago and hasn't played it since.
5 years? Is it 2013 already? I stopped about 3 months after 1.69 came out. This isnt a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. I came to ECB to find KILLER builds, not pansies. I cant wait to see your wizard20/rog18/wm2 build. It should be pretty sweet.
All builds are welcome, this is not a place reserved for uber or killer builds; here all kinds of builds can be found and should be found. Constructive criticism to optimize builds is part of the deal (even for so called RP builds) but it has to be that: constructive criticism. Thank you. _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
As for avado, I think he has become quite detached from the game, seeing as he uninstalled it about 5 years ago and hasn't played it since.
5 years? Is it 2013 already? I stopped about 3 months after 1.69 came out. This isnt a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. I came to ECB to find KILLER builds, not pansies. I cant wait to see your wizard20/rog18/wm2 build. It should be pretty sweet.
hehehe... well yes I was exaggerating about the 5 years. But that comment about you only looking for killer builds is arguable. The reason being is that I've seen you comment quite favourably towards builds that have little to no real power in melee or magic and were not designed to. Unless by KILLER you just meant "really good for what it is", and by pansies you meant the opposite.
My point is that lately you seem to be on a very short fuse avado, and I don't think it was always like that. I appreciate your critisicm, as even if it does come with insults and chides it still helps.
Anyway, at the least you've given me something to do. I'm off to make a wizard20/rog18/wm2 build. _________________ Aunty's wooden leg, aunty's wooden leg. We'll paint it red and call it Fred or Ned or Ted. Oh aunty's wooden leg, aunty's wooden leg. Everybody said it was well and truly dead!
I totally agree with Kail, thanks... The idea is to not as much as call someone a moron for something like using only two levels of Weapon Master, but to point out the advantages of taking it to the seventh level for all the juicy bonuses it offers.
This is the point of constructive criticism and why people who submit builds here ask for advice. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
