Level Guide 01: Paladin(1): Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul 02: Paladin(2): {Smite Evil} 03: Paladin(3): Power Attack 04: Paladin(4): CHA+1, (CHA=19) 05: Paladin(5) 06: Paladin(6): Cleave 07: Paladin(7) 08: Paladin(8): CHA+1, (CHA=20) 09: Blackguard(1): Weapon Focus: Scimitar, *Alignment Change* 10: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good} 11: Champion of Torm(1): *Alignment Change* 12: Champion of Torm(2): CHA+1, Great Fortitude, Blind Fight, (CHA=21) 13: Champion of Torm(3) 14: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Critical: Scimitar 15: Champion of Torm(5): Lightning Reflexes 16: Champion of Torm(6): CHA+1, Great Cleave, (CHA=22) 17: Champion of Torm(7) 18: Champion of Torm(8): Iron Will, Knockdown 19: Champion of Torm(9) 20: Champion of Torm(10): CHA+1, Point Blank Shot, (CHA=23) 21: Champion of Torm(11): Epic Fortitude 22: Champion of Torm(12) 23: Champion of Torm(13) 24: Champion of Torm(14): CHA+1, Epic Will, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=12), (CHA=24) 25: Champion of Torm(15) 26: Champion of Torm(16) 27: Champion of Torm(17): Epic Reflexes 28: Champion of Torm(18): CHA+1, Great Wisdom II, (WIS=13), (CHA=25) 29: Champion of Torm(19) 30: Champion of Torm(20): Great Charisma I, (CHA=26) 31: Champion of Torm(21) 32: Champion of Torm(22): CHA+1, Great Wisdom III, (WIS=14), (CHA=27) 33: Champion of Torm(23): Great Charisma II, (CHA=28) 34: Champion of Torm(24) 35: Champion of Torm(25) 36: Champion of Torm(26): CHA+1, Great Charisma III, Great Wisdom IV, (WIS=15), (CHA=30) 37: Champion of Torm(27) 38: Champion of Torm(28) 39: Champion of Torm(29): Great Charisma IV, (CHA=31) 40: Champion of Torm(30): CHA+1, Great Wisdom V, (WIS=16), (CHA=32)
The Buffs With Aura of Glory (+4), Resistance (+1) and Divine Wrath (+13), the saves jump to 90/81/81.
Protection from Alignment gains you a further +2 against good or evil.
That is more than double of what is normally considered high saves. What that also means is that you will be doubly annoyed when your character fails on a roll of 1.
The Gear With +12 DEX, CON, WIS, and CHA gear, Resistance and Divine Wrath, the saves jump to 104/95/95.
Add in +7 Fortitude, Will, and Reflex saves gear to max out the saves cap with Divine Wrath and you have 111/102/102.
As a measure of uselessness, does anyone know what the highest possible achievable DC of any spell/ability is?
This would also be good to know to find out what minimum saves you need to cover all challenges with the exception of fail rolls.
To Note If you set CON to 8 and DEX to 14, you swap 2 Fortitude points for Reflex points giving you 70/63/65 which is the same overall but more evened out. You could also drop DEX to 8 and set CON to 14 which adds 1 to Fortitude at the cost of 1 Reflex giving you 73/63/62. I chose the middlish road with higher Fortitude and even on the others.
Other than that, I honestly don't think anything can be done to make the saves any higher, but if anyone can come up with something I'd be happily surprised. _________________ -"Well then I rest my case." -"Where?" -"Over there." *points to suitcases on the ground* -"...I know when I'm beaten."
Edited By Angelis Dania on 01/11/10 10:30
Quote: Posted 01/11/10 10:29 (GMT) -- Angelis Dania The Buffs With Aura of Glory (+4), Resistance (+1) and Divine Wrath (+13), the saves jump to 90/81/81.
You don't get the full +13 from divine wrath. It applies to the same +20 cap as sacred defense. That is at COT 22 you can divine wrath for the full +20 to saves. Other save bonuses that apply to this cap are saves from item properties and effects, and the spellcraft bonus.
As for making saves higher take replace 8 COT with 8 paladin and take empower spell to cast empowered eagle's splendor.
Edited By WhiZard on 01/11/10 14:33
Quote: Posted 01/11/10 14:31 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Quote: Posted 01/11/10 10:29 (GMT) -- Angelis Dania The Buffs With Aura of Glory (+4), Resistance (+1) and Divine Wrath (+13), the saves jump to 90/81/81.
You don't get the full +13 from divine wrath. It applies to the same +20 cap as sacred defense. That is at COT 22 you can divine wrath for the full +20 to saves. Other save bonuses that apply to this cap are saves from item properties and effects, and the spellcraft bonus.
As for making saves higher take replace 8 COT with 8 paladin and take empower spell to cast empowered eagle's splendor.
That's strange. I tested it in-game and the saves came up as 90/81/81. I checked the wiki and it says what you said. I'm gonna go try it again.
*EDIT - Yep. I've got all expansions and patches right. I emptied my override and ran a pretty standard module, and some others and Divine Wrath is still being added - 90/81/81.
Can someone confirm this?
**EDIT - Wait, Divine Wrath doesn't count towards the cap, only Sacred Defense does (according to the wiki anyway). _________________ -"I don't understand. It was the best butter." -"Danish."
Don't trust the character sheet. Cause yourself to be subject to a save and you will see that the character sheet is misreporting.
As divine wrath gives the save bonus as an effect it applies to the +20 cap.
Thanks for pointing that out Whiz.
So now the +7 gear should be changed to +5 as Sacred Defense already gives +15, and 111/102/102 should be changed to 109/100/100.
Slightly lower but still ridiculously high. _________________ -"That's very important! Write that down - 14, 15 and 16. Now subtract, multiply, and convert to grams and kilos." -"They're very slow." -"They should be able to do it in their heads!"
Damnit! Stupid character sheet!
I tested my fortitude save vs Dev Crit and it was 81.
This thread should now be deleted. _________________ You want a spoiler? I've got a spoiler for you - You will die alone!
I tested my fortitude save vs Dev Crit and it was 81.
This thread should now be deleted.
Sounds right 8 (from feats not pertaining to +20 cap) + 20(cap reached) + 26(base fortitude save) + 26(charisma bonus + aura of glory) + 1 (constitution modifier) = 81.
Ok, the above build is still the highest possible unbuffed saves (I think. That stupid character sheet thing threw me for a loop). Just ignore the calculations above for buffed saves.
Here is one that reaches higher "true" saves, buffed and with gear.
Credit goes to WhiZard for pointing out the CoT limit at L22.
Highest Possible Buffed Saves Paladin(16), Blackguard(2), Champion of Torm(22) Human, PvM Playable - Not recommended. Final Alignment - Any non-evil.
Level Guide 01: Paladin(1): Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul 02: Paladin(2): {Smite Evil} 03: Paladin(3): Power Attack 04: Paladin(4): CHA+1, (CHA=19) 05: Paladin(5) 06: Paladin(6): Weapon Focus: Scimitar 07: Paladin(7) 08: Paladin(8): CHA+1, (CHA=20) 09: Paladin(9): Empower Spell 10: Paladin(10) 11: Paladin(11) 12: Paladin(12): CHA+1, Great Fortitude, (CHA=21) 13: Paladin(13) 14: Paladin(14) 15: Paladin(15): Lightning Reflexes 16: Paladin(16): CHA+1, (CHA=22) 17: Champion of Torm(1) 18: Champion of Torm(2): Iron Will, Cleave 19: Blackguard(1): *Alignment Change* 20: Blackguard(2): CHA+1, {Smite Good}, (CHA=23) 21: Champion of Torm(3): Epic Fortitude, *Alignment Change* 22: Champion of Torm(4): Blind Fight 23: Champion of Torm(5) 24: Champion of Torm(6): CHA+1, Epic Will, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=13), (CHA=24) 25: Champion of Torm(7) 26: Champion of Torm(8): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=14) 27: Champion of Torm(9): Epic Reflexes 28: Champion of Torm(10): CHA+1, Great Wisdom III, (WIS=15), (CHA=25) 29: Champion of Torm(11) 30: Champion of Torm(12): Great Charisma I, (CHA=26) 31: Champion of Torm(13) 32: Champion of Torm(14): CHA+1, Great Wisdom IV, (WIS=16), (CHA=27) 33: Champion of Torm(15): Great Charisma II, (CHA=28) 34: Champion of Torm(16) 35: Champion of Torm(17) 36: Champion of Torm(18): CHA+1, Great Charisma III, Great Wisdom V, (WIS=17), (CHA=30) 37: Champion of Torm(19) 38: Champion of Torm(20) 39: Champion of Torm(21): Great Charisma IV, (CHA=31) 40: Champion of Torm(22): CHA+1, Great Wisdom VI, (WIS=18), (CHA=32)
Divine Wrath +9 Aura of Glory +4 Empowered Eagle's Splendor +6 Total increase of +19.
Gives saves of 86/79/77
(when you get a roll of 3-4 on Eagle's Splendor).
+2 CHA Gear +2 +12 DEX/CON/WIS +6
Total increase of +8.
Gives saves of 94/87/85.
I haven't checked, but I think with +12 CHA/CON/DEX/WIS and no Charisma buffs, the Net saves end result might be the same as the above build.
I had to increase starting WIS to 12 for empower spell at the cost of 1 Fortitude, but Empowered Eagle's Splendor gives +2 in return so I'm still up. _________________ -"I told you not to put butter into the clockworks with a breadknife!" -"Well I couldn't put it in with a fork now could I?"
Edited By Angelis Dania on 01/11/10 16:37
I was slightly wrong I think. With the first build you get 1 more save point in total. However, the buffed saves with no gear of the second build are better. _________________ I'm a poor man your honour. I come before you full of remorse and malnutrition.
Im gonna call you Cybil from now on. What's next, a monk, pal, bg?
Quote: Posted 01/12/10 02:24 (GMT) -- avado
Im gonna call you Cybil from now on. What's next, a monk, pal, bg?
What is Cybil? _________________ -"Have some wine." -"I don't see any wine." -"There isn't any, and you're too young." -"Then it wasn't very nice of you to offer it." -"It wasn't very nice of you to sit down uninvited."
"I lovvvve you so much. i will protect you! I have sworn my life to do so." 10 secs later.. "well, you know, i think i would prefer to sit in the sun with a margarita. Yes, i know those kobalds are attacking you, but my sun time is much more important than your life. Oh wait, you are blocking the sun. *Sword to stomach* Ahh, that is so much better. Now i can go back to admiring how great i am." 10 secs later.. "I really should have helped that dude. Well, next time I will make it my sworn duty to walk the line and help keep the balance."
Sorry, i was never good at RP, but that is Cybil. She was a famous Multiple personality lady, which is what you would have to do to play this gal correctly RPwise. At least you didnt wait until the end for the 2nd switch! LOL If only the shifts werent so extreme!
Ahh I see. That's pretty funny.
I tend to look at it more like say, a Jedi tempted by the darkside, becomes a Dark Jedi or Sith for a bit and then possibly sees the light again so to speak.
As for this particular build, it was really just a challenge to see if I could get higher saves (just for ECB posterity), so it may as well be considered born at 40 and not for playing.
Other than that, a Monk/Paladin/Blackguard can actually be pretty tough, as with most Paladin/Blackguard/Something combos. It's up to the player to decide if it's worth it to them to do the switching (provided the module/server allows it), and if they want it for RP reasons or they just love the exploit, or (like me) they like both.
Some players might just play these kinds of builds as born at 40 in an SP campaign or module, which will in most cases result in a one-sided masochistic pounding (ahh good fun ).
But then you already know all of this. _________________ -"You did sing at my concert, but your performance just now was even worse!" -"I've been practicing."
The way I see it the RP of this build is that of the fallen paladin attaining redemption. There are a hell of a lot of ways to fall temporarily, i.e. practical jokes, betraying an evil merchant, etc.
Quote: Posted 01/13/10 09:27 (GMT) -- mining monk
.. There are a hell of a lot of ways to fall temporarily, i.e. practical jokes, betraying an evil merchant, etc.
indeed there are, ESPECIALLY when doing so allows a major bioware flaw in the game, whereby, moving from lg DOESNT penalize your character from delicious paladin feats! For crying out loud, Id "fall" too to get twice my charisma bonus to saves! Lord knows that my charisma is a HUGE number! LOL
Quote: Gives saves of 94/87/85.
Now that's just insane.
You could roll a D100 and go a whole games with out failing a roll. Much less a D20, w/ only a fail on a 1 with it this high.
With gear to get your AC up, you might not kill anything, but it's a tank.... literally. Just for laughs, add in resistance gear _________________ I'm both a master of my inner self, and of my outward form. -Xovia Dar'Kain 6Monk/9Druid/25Shifter My base Module
Edited By Xovian on 01/27/10 01:24
Quote: Posted 01/27/10 01:24 (GMT) -- Xovian
Quote: Gives saves of 94/87/85.
Now that's just insane.
You read the rest of the posts right? You also know it isnt true?
Yes due to the stacking issues that are capped in the game, but to even think with out the cap that it would be possible is still insane. _________________ I'm both a master of my inner self, and of my outward form. -Xovia Dar'Kain 6Monk/9Druid/25Shifter My base Module
Edited By Xovian on 01/27/10 18:42
Quote: Posted 01/27/10 18:41 (GMT) -- Xovian
Yes due to the stacking issues that are capped in the game, but to even think with out the cap that it would be possible is still insane.
crap, if there were no rules, this wouldnt be insane! This would be actually quite conservative!
And, the reality is, i never really had troubles with a cleric's saves, which were not near this level, so not realy sure how much use a save based character really is. Maybe useful, but one trick ponies never get me goin ahhh!!! And i did, one time see a screen shot of a character sheet with 110ab. Just as fictional. Remember, we HAVE rules.
Actually when saves get this high it is really not the best. Feats like evasion, improved evasion, and slippery mind (all of which this builds lacks) can make quite lower saves much more effective. Once its down to the only failure being the 1/20 autofail, boosting saves is meaningless. Another factor which this build is lacking (to help against saves) is immunities. Sure its immune to fear and disease, but it didn't take enough paladin levels to cast death ward for death magic (technically this is spell immunity from the spell resistance check and immunity to the default command EffectDeath(), but not saving throw).
Quote: Posted 01/27/10 02:13 (GMT) -- avado
Quote: Posted 01/27/10 01:24 (GMT) -- Xovian
Quote: Gives saves of 94/87/85.
Now that's just insane.
You read the rest of the posts right? You also know it isnt true?
Actually that one is the real buffed saves with gear from the second version which so far is accurate as per the rules of stacking and whatnot. _________________ -"That's very important! Write that down - 14, 15 and 16. Now subtract, multiply, and convert to grams and kilos." -"They're very slow." -"They should be able to do it in their heads!"
k, this is one reason why using buffed stats gets confusing.
the 67/60/58 already has +15 to the +20 cap from the Sacred Defense feats. That means that ONLY +5 can be added from ANY other COT feats. Now 72/65/63 arent bad! LOL
The +12 to 4 stats means you can add +12 to each save, 84/77/75 is it. There is no 90+ saves as far as i can see. I say this cuz you cant pump the +20 cap any more. You cant add anymore from stats. The ONLY way to get more would be to raise the BASE charisma even more, but for every 2 stats, you get only 1 save.
I have no idea what the stuff at the bottom of your second build means... +12 gear then +2charisma..?? Stick to the basics. You loose ALOT by trying to hide things in numbers. Look at Tyr Templars builds if you want an example. Lots of ideas but WAYYYY to many numbers! Using base numbers, it is VERY easy to calculate what I would need in a pw. Thats sort of why we have an unwritten rule about posting with buffed numbers only (you didnt do that here) but it confuses things! LOL Like right now.. what is my name???
k, this is one reason why using buffed stats gets confusing.
the 67/60/58 already has +15 to the +20 cap from the Sacred Defense feats. That means that ONLY +5 can be added from ANY other COT feats. Now 72/65/63 arent bad! LOL
The +12 to 4 stats means you can add +12 to each save, 84/77/75 is it. There is no 90+ saves as far as i can see. I say this cuz you cant pump the +20 cap any more. You cant add anymore from stats. The ONLY way to get more would be to raise the BASE charisma even more, but for every 2 stats, you get only 1 save.
Since the character sheet misreports I am doing this manually. Saves are denoted fortitude, reflex, will
*Note: There is also a +1 vs. death magic (from strong soul) which the character sheet may erroneously be adding to will.
Edited By WhiZard on 02/01/10 18:38
Quote: Posted 02/01/10 18:09 (GMT) -- WhiZard
*Note: There is also a +1 vs. death magic (from strong soul) which the character sheet may erroneously be adding to will.
I guess the character sheet is better than I thought. Strong soul gives +1 to fortitude, +1 vs. death magic, and +1 to will saves (I had forgotten the last part). So both the base and maximum for the second build were entirely accurate as the OP had posted.
*As a side note you can get the second build to make up for that -1 total difference (with the original build) by taking 15paladin/3blackguard/2COT pre-epic (gives a -1 fort, but +1 to reflex and will).
).