Another Wizard-PM spellsword, featuring crit immunity, epic buffs, Wizard 9 spellcasting, autostill III and devastating criticals. This time I have ended up with Caster level 23 and AB 35.
Wizard(23), Fighter(7), Pale Master(10), Dwarf Alignment: Non-Good Playable: not sure, since all the cheese comes after clvl 36 (Autostill III, DevCrit, Epic Spells), but must be still manageable with crit immunity and buffs
01: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Power Attack 02: Fighter(2): Cleave 03: Wizard(1): Still Spell, {Scribe Scroll} {Illusion} 04: Wizard(2): STR+1, (STR=18) 05: Fighter(3) 06: Fighter(4): Extend Spell, Knockdown 07: Fighter(5) 08: Wizard(3): STR+1, (STR=19) 09: Wizard(4): Blind Fight 10: Pale Master(1) 11: Pale Master(2) 12: Pale Master(3): STR+1, Improved Critical: Scimitar, (STR=20) 13: Pale Master(4) 14: Pale Master(5) 15: Pale Master(6): Empower Spell 16: Pale Master(7): STR+1, (STR=21) 17: Pale Master(8) 18: Pale Master(9): Maximize Spell 19: Pale Master(10) 20: Fighter(6): INT+1, Great Cleave, (INT=17) 21: Wizard(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Great Intelligence I, (INT=18) 22: Wizard(6) 23: Wizard(7) 24: Wizard(8): STR+1, Armor Skin, (STR=22) 25: Wizard(9) 26: Wizard(10): Great Intelligence II, (INT=19) 27: Wizard(11): Epic Prowess 28: Wizard(12): STR+1, (STR=23) 29: Wizard(13) 30: Wizard(14): Automatic Still Spell I 31: Wizard(15): Automatic Still Spell II 32: Wizard(16): STR+1, (STR=24) 33: Wizard(17): Overwhelming Critical: Scimitar 34: Wizard(18) 35: Wizard(19) 36: Wizard(20): STR+1, Devastating Critical: Scimitar, Automatic Still Spell III, (STR=25) 37: Wizard(21) 38: Wizard(22) 39: Wizard(23): Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor, Epic Spell: Epic Warding 40: Fighter(7): STR+1, (STR=26)
I truly dont know how to put this. While the lvl breakdown of this one makes more sense, there are some things that I would move around.
First, WHY do you need KD? As a wizard, couldnt you use Big's to do the dirty work for you?
Why CON of 16? I know you're a dwarf, but you gimp the build by leaving your dev crit to late in the build. If you put Con at 12, you would have str at 18 and int at 17 to start. Yes, not as many HP, but you are a Wizard with Max Endurance, no? HP are for those who really dont have faith in their skills. As you progress with your playing, they become less and less important. Infact, i remember playing an RDD build one time that started with 8 CON! You just play less aggressively, though, for those who played with me, they could never imagine me having a slower gear!
Since you are a spellsword, do you need Empower spell? You are relyin on no dc spells... i can see for spellbook management, im just wondering out loud.
Why the wondering? You have forgotten one of the only real reasons to take fighter, imho. In this and the other version, you REALLY need to take ws and epic wpn specialization. IT is +6 damage to EVERY shot! Why else take fighter? (magi dont even suggest feats! )
These are just my thoughts. Your build is solid, if not "by the book". I just focus more on sheer destructive outlay than most consider. *bad avado*
Can you even take Autostill at wizard level 14? I've never tested it with Pale Master levels, but thought I'd ask.
35 AB still seems awfully low...but you have crit immunity and +6 AC, which is a decent tradeoff. Just want to make sure you don't lose the whole "sword" part and just wind up with an offensive caster and no melee presence.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado
First, WHY do you need KD? As a wizard, couldnt you use Big's to do the dirty work for you?
Limited uses per day, things with decent strength can resist it, and spell resistance, among other things.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado
Yes, not as many HP, but you are a Wizard with Max Endurance, no? HP are for those who really dont have faith in their skills. As you progress with your playing, they become less and less important. Infact, i remember playing an RDD build one time that started with 8 CON! You just play less aggressively, though, for those who played with me, they could never imagine me having a slower gear!
In this case, it's 80 hit points. Not the end of the world, but hit points don't become less and less important in most environments.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado First, WHY do you need KD? As a wizard, couldnt you use Big's to do the dirty work for you?
unlimited uses, goes through SR and mantles, personal preferences
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado Why CON of 16? I know you're a dwarf, but you gimp the build by leaving your dev crit to late in the build. If you put Con at 12, you would have str at 18 and int at 17 to start.
Well, as a dwarf, I need to lower Con to 11, to get 18 str and 17 int. that's 120 hp. Of course you can do it if you want. Might even be a smart choice, if your Con bonus from items is odd, like from Boots of Hardiness +3
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado Since you are a spellsword, do you need Empower spell? You are relyin on no dc spells... i can see for spellbook management, im just wondering out loud.
empowered IGMS and Evard's Black Tentacles come to mind.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado Why the wondering? You have forgotten one of the only real reasons to take fighter, imho. In this and the other version, you REALLY need to take ws and epic wpn specialization. IT is +6 damage to EVERY shot! Why else take fighter? (magi dont even suggest feats! )
Actually I took fighter for feats galore. I need feats and BAB. I considered CoT, but then I'd need Heavy Armor proficiency, weapon focus in an irrelevant weapon, and no feat at 1st class lvl. You can take EWS instead of Epic Prowess or one of the epic spells. Go ahead and take WS instead of Empower spell. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't fit in more epic feats without lowering AB or sacrificing an epic spell. If you choose lower AB, you may take 4 fig/6 wiz levels pre-epic and 2 fig epic, giving you 1 fighter epic bonus feat (for EWS) at the cost of 1 BAB and 1 Great Int. take 17 int and 14 con. you also gain caster level 24
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 02:11 (GMT) -- Magical Master Can you even take Autostill at wizard level 14? I've never tested it with Pale Master levels, but thought I'd ask.
You only need to be an epic character and be able to cast 9 lvl spells. with 10 PM levels you are fine with 12+ wizard levels for the latter.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 02:11 (GMT) -- Magical Master 35 AB still seems awfully low...but you have crit immunity and +6 AC, which is a decent tradeoff. Just want to make sure you don't lose the whole "sword" part and just wind up with an offensive caster and no melee presence.
I think 35 AB is the best you can do if you want good caster level as well. You can get 36AB at the expense of constitution. I have ideas of other Wiz-PM-Fighter builds, with up to 39 AB (and up to 16BAB!), but that comes at the cost of only 10 wizard levels and low Con (and 16BAB version has only 1 epic feat).
Edited By magaiti on 02/20/10 12:20
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 11:51 (GMT) -- magaiti I have ideas of other Wiz-PM-Fighter builds, with up to 39 AB (and up to 16BAB!), but that comes at the cost of only 10 wizard levels and low Con (and 16BAB version has only 1 epic feat).
It turns out, that my 16BAB build is just DevCrit version of already posted build Click Here
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 11:51 (GMT) -- magaiti
Well, as a dwarf, I need to lower Con to 11, to get 18 str and 17 int. that's 120 hp. Of course you can do it if you want. Might even be a smart choice, if your Con bonus from items is odd, like from Boots of Hardiness +3
ONLY 120! LOL I would suggest NEVER building a build around an item, ESPECIALLY +3 hardiboots!
Quote:
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 00:11 (GMT) -- avado Why the wondering? You have forgotten one of the only real reasons to take fighter, imho. In this and the other version, you REALLY need to take ws and epic wpn specialization. IT is +6 damage to EVERY shot! Why else take fighter? (magi dont even suggest feats! )
Actually I took fighter for feats galore. I need feats and BAB. I considered CoT, but then I'd need Heavy Armor proficiency, weapon focus in an irrelevant weapon, and no feat at 1st class lvl.
COT is better suited to Divine classes where you can add Gr wisdoms with feats. And, for what you noted as well. Feats galore, really? 3 feats is "galore"? I just figured it would be Magic to answer that! He is VERY good at picking up on the obvious avado misses!
(quote) You can take EWS instead of Epic Prowess or one of the epic spells. Go ahead and take WS instead of Empower spell. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't fit in more epic feats without lowering AB or sacrificing an epic spell. (quote) HEre's another question: is epic mage armor WORTHY of one feat? Yes, in a world where there are no such thing as items, it is "nice" to be able to add 5/5/5/5 AC on your own {+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus). One ring of Protectin +6, Full plate +6 and an Amulet of resistance +6, and your precious epic feat is negated. In other words, if you are playing in a magic environment, you have to ask, IS AN EPIC FEAT worth +5 Dodge ac?
Yeah, empower is a good feat with TONS of uses. I was asking more to get your build on a concept vs being a pure caster with a few fighter lvls thrown in.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 13:28 (GMT) -- avado HEre's another question: is epic mage armor WORTHY of one feat? Yes, in a world where there are no such thing as items, it is "nice" to be able to add 5/5/5/5 AC on your own {+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus). One ring of Protectin +6, Full plate +6 and an Amulet of resistance +6, and your precious epic feat is negated. In other words, if you are playing in a magic environment, you have to ask, IS AN EPIC FEAT worth +5 Dodge ac?
The wizard/sorcerer variant of melee is through tenser's which do not merge anything. Using a tenser this build would have a bonus to attack of +11, a +3 enhancement, but would suffer from a slightly lower strength. However, epic mage armor can be quite handy when in one that form.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 13:28 (GMT) -- avado
HEre's another question: is epic mage armor WORTHY of one feat? Yes, in a world where there are no such thing as items, it is "nice" to be able to add 5/5/5/5 AC on your own {+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus). One ring of Protectin +6, Full plate +6 and an Amulet of resistance +6, and your precious epic feat is negated. In other words, if you are playing in a magic environment, you have to ask, IS AN EPIC FEAT worth +5 Dodge ac?
EMA being undispellable and long lasting frees up item slots that would otherwise be used for AC enhancements. This is a non trivial and often overlooked aspect. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
RIGHT!! Tensers! Forgot that little guy!
RIGHT!! Undispelable! In my last 2 years of playing i did PRC exclusively. THe Epic spells in PRC are actually implemented as Lv 10 spells, which were dispellable! EMA in PRC also added +20 to Armor AC. SO it was annoying with my lv 40 caster to LOOSE ema and 16 ac (i had +4 armor ac on my bracers)!
RIGHT!! Slots freed up! Again, i was spoiled GREATLY in that we could build our own gear to suit (within reason). I ALWAYS had exactly what i wanted and never had to settle. I guess i forget what its like to have the mighty +3 boots of Hardiness...
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 11:51 (GMT) -- magaiti
You only need to be an epic character and be able to cast 9 lvl spells. with 10 PM levels you are fine with 12+ wizard levels for the latter.
I assume you actually tested this, right?
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 11:51 (GMT) -- magaiti
I think 35 AB is the best you can do if you want good caster level as well. You can get 36AB at the expense of constitution. I have ideas of other Wiz-PM-Fighter builds, with up to 39 AB (and up to 16BAB!), but that comes at the cost of only 10 wizard levels and low Con (and 16BAB version has only 1 epic feat).
Or you'd have to drop the PM and go something like 14 fighter/26 wizard, and it becomes a wholly different build.
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 13:28 (GMT) -- avado
COT is better suited to Divine classes where you can add Gr wisdoms with feats. And, for what you noted as well. Feats galore, really? 3 feats is "galore"? I just figured it would be Magic to answer that! He is VERY good at picking up on the obvious avado misses!
Hey, you requested I didn't mention it, remember?
Quote: Posted 02/20/10 13:28 (GMT) -- avado
HEre's another question: is epic mage armor WORTHY of one feat? Yes, in a world where there are no such thing as items, it is "nice" to be able to add 5/5/5/5 AC on your own {+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus). One ring of Protectin +6, Full plate +6 and an Amulet of resistance +6, and your precious epic feat is negated. In other words, if you are playing in a magic environment, you have to ask, IS AN EPIC FEAT worth +5 Dodge ac?
Armor Skin is +2 AC and well worth it. 2 AC = 20-35% less physical hits in all but the most extreme of cases. Unless the dodge AC is going to waste because of +10 dodge boots, Haste, and Bard Song filling up the cap or something, +5 Dodge AC is very nice.
And, as Kail said, a major benefit is *not* needing that ring of protection and instead getting other stats.
A pm lvl counts as half a wizard lvl for spells. So the 10 is actually +5 to caster lvl. If he has 14wiz + 10 pm is 19 caster lvl. If he has an epic character, there should be no concerns about the epic spells.
Quote: Posted 02/21/10 04:12 (GMT) -- avado
A pm lvl counts as half a wizard lvl for spells. So the 10 is actually +5 to caster lvl. If he has 14wiz + 10 pm is 19 caster lvl. If he has an epic character, there should be no concerns about the epic spells.
Well, You are probably talking about PRC or something. I make builds for PW with mostly untweaked bioware scripts. And by bioware's default, PM only gives spell slots, no caster level. Also, epic spells actually require 21+ lvls of wiz/sorc or 15+ PM levels
You only need to be an epic character and be able to cast 9 lvl spells. with 10 PM levels you are fine with 12+ wizard levels for the latter.
I assume you actually tested this, right?
Right. no PRC, whatever, pure 1.69 Build: 11 wiz / 10 PM / 2 fighter / 1 wiz. Make sure you have 19+ int and Still Spell. At lvl 24, dump 27 to spellcraft. Voila.
Making a good spellsword is rather difficult and involves a lot of give and take. I started a thread in the general forum recently where I invited people to bring their favorite builds. My hope was that we might learn from the best ones.
IMO this build is better than your last build. You still sruggle a bit with AB and penetration, but it has improved. Penetrating a SR of 32 is a benchmark since you find standard "epic" items that grant SR 32. You will need a roll of 9 to beat it, meaning you only hit 60% of the time. The spell penetration feats will help some and make your IGMS far more lethal. ESP would in fact make you hit on 90% of your attempts against SR 32.
Or he could just use a Mord's/Greater Spell Breach.
Quote: Posted 02/21/10 08:06 (GMT) -- magaiti
Quote: Posted 02/21/10 04:12 (GMT) -- avado
A pm lvl counts as half a wizard lvl for spells. So the 10 is actually +5 to caster lvl. If he has 14wiz + 10 pm is 19 caster lvl. If he has an epic character, there should be no concerns about the epic spells.
Well, You are probably talking about PRC or something. I make builds for PW with mostly untweaked bioware scripts. And by bioware's default, PM only gives spell slots, no caster level. Also, epic spells actually require 21+ lvls of wiz/sorc or 15+ PM levels
yeah.. im stinking up the place with PM! I read the nwnwiki and i WAS wrong again! I never used PM in prc cuz there exist spells that mimic the imm to crits.
WIth this realization of my ineptitude with PM's i wonder if you are giving up too much for imm to crits? Sure its a nice thing to have, but now, your caster lvl is 23 and your ab is low. This is why i dont like spellswords.
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