Definetly meant for party play as a support class. Meant to wear plate without hassle (14 str) and basically level up early on as a cleric. As a buffer and healer it stays plenty busy in the group, also debuffing the enemy with curse song and taunt.
I know the build has been done before but I think this one is more survivable, easier to level, and easier to manage than most cleric/bard support builds. By the time you really get into the bard spells, you can cast them freely in plate with Auto-still spell 2. I thought I had posted this before, but I can't find it by searching or in the indexes, so here it is.
All the ridiculous buffing/debuffing benefits of a cleric/bard combo and as survivable as can be done, with taunt taken into consideration as well. Will usually be the best taunter in any group, only a CHA based paladin should have better I would think.
Edit: I see some flaws already. I found my old post, I posted about it but never posted the build. One thing is it should be 17 bard/23 cleric instead, and my old build seemed to have different use of skillpoints. I will post some more tomorrow but in concept I think the idea is there. I simply lost the old build and am trying to remake it to be as good as what I had before I start playing again.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/23/10 13:27
This is more like it:
The 17th bard level lets you cast a level 6 bard spell with 16 cha. A 16th level Bard needs to get CHA up to 22 with items to get a level 6 spell. So this guy can cast a mass haste once per day. Of course I would use the single target hastes situationally on myself and groupmates, but mass haste would be a great spell to throw out in a bind. That of course changes if everyone has haste items at epic levels, but I intend to play somewhere with slightly less magic (items) than that.
UMD is odd because I dumped the remaining points there, with just + 2 to CHA it will be at effective 30.
I could see taking the healing domain instead of trickery, but improved invis is such a good spell and you get it early on this way, as well as it being in line with cleric spells. If most of the high level monsters on the server have built-in true sight, then I would go with healing domain.
Also I take taunt so high because I want to be able to taunt just about anything, and have a chance to taunt even the highest-level bosses. Bard song/curse song will help the odds with that even more.
Edited By Erombil on 05/16/10 15:24
For the purposes of this post, I think trickery is a waste. Perhaps, when actually playing the build, it's more justifiable.
Never thought of using cleric to get auto-still for a bard. I like that.
You build this guy like a caster, but he isnt. You build him defensively, but he will get smoked because you are being to soft with him.
For starters, clerics get, arguably, the best use of the Weapon Focus feats (epic wpn foc) of any class because it counts BEFORE the +20 cap, and a cleric can get +20 ab as easily as anything, esp with a bard mix. Being a 3/4 class, you NEED this (esp with div power).
Initiative are fair, but there are usually better options than blowing 2 pre epic feats on it (typically id go Martial or Exotic with an Axe (battle or dwarf in this case) and Improve crit as well. So that's 4 feats.
In this case, the feats that are NOT needed are combat casting, the initiative feats and i would take out Max spell. With cleric, it is a handy one to have, but you would need empower more. I would look at dropping linger song for Extended cuz you only have 24 lvls (which isnt a long duration imo).
While ESF:DIs i can see a use for, conc and taunt.. not sure what the benefit is there. ICC you can drop as you should have 0 probs with interuptions (and you can even use Def casting free if you are worried about it).
It appears you took Epic Ref almost as a last ditch choice. Again, clerics have spells to lessen the reflex save lack, and there are better options here.
What am i suggesting? Well, the DC on spells will really suck as 20 is truly sad. Trust me, i built a HIGH DC cleric (with DC over 50 which you cant get in vanilla nwn) and it was still iffy, so 20 wont be anything exciting. You need to focus on being a Cleric, not a wizard (or in this case Sorc, which has a much better synergy btw). You need WF and EWF with a Mart/exotic axe for the nice Crit damage and Impr crit. Extend is nice to give you more use of the short duration.
You need epic prowess for AB (see above for reason). And in this case, i would SERIOUSLY look at going str. Yes, that would be a serious 3 stat shift (hey wait, he did that anyway). I would leave Wis at 19 as it wont make any noticable difference and MAYBE consider only to 5th lvl Bard songs as i hear the lv 6's arent the best (that is 2nd hand info as i have never played bards enough to find for myself). I am a Min/Max type of player, which is doable with cleric, so i would drop dex to 8, con to 10 (pos and try to get str as high as i could (26 or so.. which may be wishful in this build). Why? cuz str based clerics rule all (yes, i am so trying to make my cleric20/rdd10/pm10 build )
That is just off the top of my head. You have to remember that a cleric casts spells, but IS NOT a caster! They are meant to pick a weapon and charge into battle. It hurts when people take the strongest of all classes in nwn and mix it with the best mixed class in nwn (bard) then call it a support character! WHAT? NO way! In my hands, this guy would shame ANY fighter! ANY wm in PVM! With the bard song curse song support, watch out!
You have a truly lethal idea. Just take it alittle more and understand the classes alittle better and you'll have it. Dont worry though, it took me 6 years to figure out the cleric to where i loved it. it is a very versatile class and in the right hands in pvm, unstoppable. Mix in bard like this, and i drool! LOL
I think the OP is actually talking about a support build?
He doesnt really state that he wants el-psycho taunty smashy meathead mesmashyougood wade in and to hell-with-my-coiffure super dude.
But then again .. This combo can melee very effectively anyway, given all the insane buffs and debuffs available he kind of does deliver his very own special type of carnage. AB really wont be too bad when this dude puts the foot down. Bosses will just take a little thought to understand weaknesses, and if this build cant exploit weaknesses, then call me jimbob and stick some corn in my ear. Why am I even saying this, we all know it right.. the build, not my name.
My inane ramblings.. take it or leave it
The split i would go for is 24cle/16ba. Undispellable cle, max song/curse ab/ac tunage
Leave str at 14 .. not a problem. When you go div power you get a free +4str. Hell, drop it to 12 and up your CON. Normal mobs aint gonna notice the difference.
I tend to not worry terribly much about 6th lvl bard spells, so CHA = *meh*.
I would go scimmy or rapier, sword and board: with extra crit and keen you will pump out excellent dmg with darkfire, gmw, bless, prayer, div favor, warcry .. heck, you can even go for divine power (& shield) if ya want.
I would; - drop maximise, epic reflexes. - drop cc and icc .. you have greater sanctuary. You can umd timestop in a pinch. - drop esf:conc .. unless you are getting taunted alot? - Drop Auto 1 and 2. Not worth it imho .. the bard spells aint gonna make or break this build by a long shot
I would: - pickup Extend, Blind Fight - add wf, ewf and prowess in scim or rapier. Even a blunt could be good .. warhammer, morningstar, mace if u want more consistent base dmg output vs all. again not a prob with all the buffs - leaves 2 free epic feats
Domains: - Plant and Trickery/Magic - great defense - Plant and Strength - good mix def and off .. in lieu of trickery domain you can use displacement and impr invis from bard list. Displacement is voice only, so no armor check. use it normal and extended
I would personally choose Plant and Str.
Why Plant? Barkskin = great natural AC, frees up a slot. Creeping doooom + grease + SOV (x however many castings u want) = no-one should get near you, enables good battlefield control.
Either way, quickslots are gonna drive you maaaad in a build like this.
Probably hard to screw it up, you have soo many options with this combo.
To cheese it up drop in a lvl of sd, ranger for a late free feat (oh! the cries from the peanut gallery), or even pal/bg for cha save bonuses to take the concept a bit further.
Given that 23 cle is still undispellable you kind of have a choice of single lvl cheese
oh .. and make him a gnome. lol
gotta go get me some more cod snipey headshots. bye. 10-4, over and out. peace.
Edited By jumjones on 05/17/10 12:38
ok, love the suggestions.
Onioneater, I am indeed iffy about taking trickery, but almost all the domains are helpful early on then lose their potency in epic levels, even war, but war is the one I think is a definite yes. Healing is helpful early on but loses it's potency as well. Air is great early on for levelling. I consider plant an option as creeping doom may be a good spell even at high levels, at least for the snare effect on bad guys.
Avado, I see what you mean. I can see the crits being even a bigger deal with all the bonus damage (aid, divine favor, bard song bonus damage perhaps, etc), the bonus damage should multiply as well. I planned to just use a mace or morningstar with no proficiencies and hunt down if necessary when solo. But I think there are often going to be times where he solos quite well even without a single feat into melee and using a simple mace. I certainly never planned to nuke with him. Though I don't plan to take proficiencies, I could easily see the value in with martial weapons, and maybe maybe exotic.
But yes I DO plan to melee as his offense in epic levels. I never intended to try to nuke with him. I could lose maximize too. I just don't want to focus on a weapon, if im going to use different ones situationally (based on their magic bonuses and what im up against). And well, I pretty much always end up doing that.
So I'm willing to drop down a bit in solo ability, to be more survivable in group action. But of course there is tremendous value if I can make him melee well for the group. Every cleric/bard I've seen wore cloth and died fast, so my whole point here is to make it survivable. So when that boss attacks you, you have a chance to go into improved expertise and slow him down. That's why you see things like imp. expertise. Epic reflexes was sort of a whatever thing, but it's defense and that's what I leaned towards.
I appreciate the ideas and I hope you see more what I'm looking for.
Edited By Erombil on 05/17/10 22:32
Jumjones, I think you understood best what I was trying to do but your suggestions were again to drop the defensive stuff and focus in a weapon/epic prowess. I guess that's just the most effective way to go regardless of my focus? Survivability is my main goal.
When I look at the cleric/bard I see the unavoidably average AC and hitpoints. I see defense as it's weakness, and I see saves as low. Even though you can get immunity to alot of things with spells, they can be dispelled, timers run out in the thick of things, and you still want the saves.
You are right the quickbars are hell and I think last time I just used the Interface to select bard spells, while keeping the full assortment of cleric stuff on the 3 bars. The idea is bard spells like clarity, haste, imp. invis, and mass haste are meant to be used situationally and perhaps in emergencies, but it's very nice to be able to cast them on the fly. Just to have a situational haste for the main tank is huge. Of course if you are used to playing on a server with haste items, it's not. If the server has lots of truesight mobs, then that is also less going for the bard spells.
So I guess while it's expected to melee, and believe me I do when there is time. If I'm not healing, buffing, etc. I mean it's a lot to cast at high levels. You are looking at round-based spells. Aura of vitality, prayer, battletide, bard-song, curse-song, situational spells, heals, taunts, etc. Have to wait between taunts. Fighting a few high level monsters in anything other than a duo, the build hardly has time to do anything but cast buffs and heal!
At least that's the angle I'm coming from here. I totally understand that being effective in melee would be a huge boost to the group, especially with the magic dmg, the bonus dmg, but at the same time I'm wanting to do all I can effectively for the builds survivability in high-level encounters.
Edit: BTW, I am waiting for the video card to arrive in the mail, before I can start back at NWN again. Thanks for the ideas and suggestions! It is making me rethink a bit about this characters strengths/weaknesses, I just want my goals and what I'm envisioning to be clear to those trying to help.
Edited By Erombil on 05/17/10 22:57
YOu really got to read the guide i wrote. Clerics are NOT like you say at all, wrt casting. Yes, they are not fighters either, with just point and click, but with the use of Extend spell, you really only need to cast Div Favor (the only lv 1 and lv 2 slots you need). If you have GMW on wpn, thats +5 towards +20 cap. With Div power, that is +5 and div fav, +5, so you are sitting at +15 already. If you have a +10 wpn, well, you prayer, bless, battletide, are all irrelevant FOR AB! Damage is another thing (for those that give damage). You just got to play the cleric and change your views toward it.
Avado I see what you mean and I am now looking at playing him a little more aggresively to be a melee force in the group.
That said, Prayer might be irrelevant after GMW, Divine power, divine favor, bless, aid, etc. Yes you start to get close to that +20 on YOURSELF. But things like prayer will always benefit the rest of the group. There are also a lot of situational level 4 spells that on certain places your group needs. Death ward, GMW everyone on a low magic server anyway, Restoration is wonderful to always have a few of those. So I find it difficult to just ignore all the things that can be brought to the group. If you try to do both, you are going to end up with one or two divine mights each rest.
Buffing up an Arcane Archer to full extent you can, or a WeaponMaster may be more effective than buffing my 18 str cleric/bard AB? In this case every AB spell you have will be relevant, even with Bardsong you cannot get the whole group to +20. Even still, paladins/monks and any tank really will be great to buff this way because that's all they do is fight, while you must also heal and recast buffs.
Like I said it's a support character. Might be getting off topic talking about the role, but it can be very effective. I've seen it work in groups and maybe it can do MORE. But my, just the buffing and healing will keep you plenty busy. If there is any excuse not to worry about making yourself a melee force after doing all you can (everything that can be done) to enhance the group's melee capacity, it's because you've already done enough and really should just focus on keeping yourself and everyone alive at that point.
I would do one or the other. Group buffer, or self buffer, trying to do both will be way too much to manage. Too much quickbar changing from one role to the next. So melee + heal, or buff + heal. And for me, I'm going with buff/heal as my role. There's just too much to do if you try to pull off something that's going to buff groupmates as much as possible, while debuffing enemies as much as possible.
Oh .. to save ppl from having to search for similar builds, and to get a perspective on options:
Your build: Healing, Humming, Support Gnome (Clr 25 / Brd 15) Click Here Life of the Party (Clr 23 / Brd 17) Click Here
And also .. Ancilla (Brd 20 / Clr 17 / Sor 3) Click Here The Happy Helper (Brd 20 / Clr 18 / BG 2) Click Here
and my personal fave .. Harbinger of Sorrow (Clr 19 / SD 1 / Brd 20) Click Here _________________ Workings of a Chaotic-Neutral mind:
Mind to Subconscious: Sir! Host is being asked to read the rules! Subconscious to Mind: But theres pr0n to watch! Mind to Subconscious: Happy to report Host has beaten us to it! Subconscious to Mind: We ROCK!
Edited By jumjones on 05/19/10 04:27
Quote: Posted 05/17/10 12:36 (GMT) -- jumjones
I think the OP is actually talking about a support build?
Yeah, but why? Sure, you could play this as a support build, but it's not. This is a tank in the first degree (or, at least, w/ tweaking). You can be quite a force without giving up much of import in defense and supportability. Yes, you can do it all.
Quote: Posted 05/17/10 22:30 (GMT) -- Erombil Every cleric/bard I've seen wore cloth and died fast, so my whole point here is to make it survivable.
That's ridiculous. They died fast because they wore cloth armor. That's a ridiculous choice of defense. That is choosing to not have a defense. Every cleric/bard you've seen is sadly misplayed.
Quote: Posted 05/17/10 22:52 (GMT) -- Erombil When I look at the cleric/bard I see the unavoidably average AC and hitpoints.
What? Average AC? You can do quite well. Quite well indeed. That's comin' from an AC junky.
I hate to say it, but Avado's (mostly) right. This version mislays it's strengths, casting them aside for little in return. You want to buff your party? That's fine, you can do that. You can also buff yourself into one of the stronger, if not the strongest, straight up basher.
As far as domains, well, that strongly depends on environment. At the least you should be able to pick up some useful spells. Stoneskin, perhaps?
As far as focusing on a weapon, while Avado's right about this too (damn, twice in one post I admit that), you don't lose all that much by fortgoeing it. If you don't want to commit, so be it, but know that this build is better off w/ WF, and such, in it. There's certainly room.
*Shaking head* cloth wearing cleric/bards... when will the absurdities end?
Bring out the cheesy monk level !!! _________________ Workings of a Chaotic-Neutral mind:
Mind to Subconscious: Sir! Host is being asked to read the rules! Subconscious to Mind: But theres pr0n to watch! Mind to Subconscious: Happy to report Host has beaten us to it! Subconscious to Mind: We ROCK!
Argh, ok I'll concede that both CAN be done, melee and buffing the group (fully). But you have to admit that you do one at the expense of the other. There are only so many spell slots, and things do come up. When I played it, honestly I'd only have room for 1 or 2 divine mights and favors (perhaps more favors), everything else was needed for the group. Don't forget the healing which is a lot of spells and a job on it's own. In other words you cannot plan perfectly.
To pretend you can do both without sacrificing on the other end is about opposite in spirit to most discussions on this board. Everything you do in a build and spell selection is a choice, that choice will have it's pros and it's cons. Then magically when we take the class split that has more roles and responsibilities than anything else, it suddenly can do it all! No problem!
Maybe in order to bring this whole thing back down to earth: I guess really, (OP's opinion only an opinion) the truly important things for the build are curse song, imp. expertise (personally), still spell(if only for spell management) and auto-still 2. Discipline, concentration, spellcraft, taunt as skills, the epic skill focuses are NOT crucial to the build. That's THE build I am talking about. Take it in any direection from there, if you have those basic things and play it right, it's going to be great for the group and levellable, doable. The rest is icing and it's a lot of icing. All the other feats are not cruical, they just provide a small bonus here and there, and are perhaps overkill. Of course I want to optimize it, who doesn't want to optimize their ideas?
There are people out there who just want to play as pure support, and they do it quite well. And they are LOVED in the group. Pretend it's not me for a second, if some random guy or girl hops in your group and gives everyone every pertinent cleric and bard buff to their class, taunts everything, curse/bard songs at each fight, also taking full responsiblity for the healing... nobody is going to complain and say, "Boy I wish so and so would melee more."
A compromise. Able to do everything I want it to, without focusing on defense. Going more in the direction of the advice. Blind fight not taken, because he has true sight. Is it still needed? This build WOULD be nice for me, because it will solo better and be able to explore a bit more on it's own. But ultimately soloing with this build is going to be tedious. INT 14 is pretty much needed if he wants to have all the skill, so it's not ONLY for imp. expertise. With the charisma, both domain abilities will last a decent amount of time too. The level 6 bard spell does matter to me! Sorry! Str is low but not after you buff.
Rapier is a style choice, it seems the most bardly. I like that he can use more weapons and would probably not ONLY use rapiers. I lose ESF: conc, and taunt, (which I do like) but if I really need that it is probably situational and there are +skill items for that on almost any server.
Another edit: Also getting Stoneskin is a plus.
Also, I toy with the idea of dropping ESF: discipline, and rely on items if necessary, and get called shot! With called shots and fully buffed AB, debuffed enemy AC he could handle the -4 to hit and FURTHER lower the enemies AC/AB, lol. Less tanks have called shot than I would like to see. I think it's a great group ability, sometimes archers have it, but I think it would be found useful in some situations and this guy may be the guy to take it as well, like taunt.
Edited By Erombil on 05/20/10 00:13
Had to make a constitution version and I gave this version called shot. In a fight against multiple mobs, could taunt and then spam a few called shots waiting for taunt timer, then taunt the next one and spam a few called shots, then move on. Really the point is the buffing/debuffing making it easy on the group as possible, everything adds up.
The hitpoints might be a big help. Running up and taunting and changing from target to target he will get AOO's on him, also the healing, etc. Has to get close in thick of things eventually, always happens. Of course con can be raised with buffs and items to the 10 con/ strength version could still be ok too. Either build I would always have an endurance on himself, always.
Argh, ok I'll concede that both CAN be done, melee and buffing the group (fully). But you have to admit that you do one at the expense of the other.
That's the thing. You don't really have to give up much of anything. I mean, sure, there's the loss of ICC, but that aint much of a loss. You can be buffer party support extroadinaire and still be kick butt cleric. You can even go back as forth as you like.
Quote: There are only so many spell slots, and things do come up.
Spell slots can be swapped out, so I don't see the issue. When you really want to fully buff a group of six, w/ every available spell, then sure, but that's a silly thing to do, and impractical to boot. If the interest is in providing the greatest asset to your party, at least some of those buffs are most likely better spent on you.
Quote: Don't forget the healing which is a lot of spells and a job on it's own.
Scribe? Craft? Spending spell slots on healing is often a mistake.
Quote: To pretend you can do both without sacrificing on the other end is about opposite in spirit to most discussions on this board. Everything you do in a build and spell selection is a choice, that choice will have it's pros and it's cons. Then magically when we take the class split that has more roles and responsibilities than anything else, it suddenly can do it all! No problem!
That's what's so messed up about clerics. They can do it all. This build has very little of import that would be lost by going a more traditional route (with 'traditional' here meaning 'kick butt cleric.')
Bottom line is that clerics are crazy. They have so much going for them. This means that one can easily give up certain things, or go for something non-optimal (or outright silly, as you like), and still have a playable character. This is a playable build. That doesn't make it a good one. As far as I see, there's nothing significant that this build does better than another cleric/bard.
Quote: Posted 05/20/10 02:12 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Don't forget the healing which is a lot of spells and a job on it's own.
Scribe? Craft? Spending spell slots on healing is often a mistake.
Dont forget that you dont necessarily need to spend spell slots on healing .. you have the sponteneous cast ability on the cure line of spells without specifically memorising them first. _________________ Workings of a Chaotic-Neutral mind:
Mind to Subconscious: Sir! Host is being asked to read the rules! Subconscious to Mind: But theres pr0n to watch! Mind to Subconscious: Happy to report Host has beaten us to it! Subconscious to Mind: We ROCK!
Onion said it best. The idea that you have to be the supporter for your party makes me sad. I truly feel very sad for the player that thinks this is a cleric.
My personal preferences were very much in line with Onion's comments: buff party, why? Heal party, why? If they require YOU so much, honestly, find a new party cuz they suck and will get you killed.
Div power is THE most overpowered spell in the game, which you mix with div fav. WHY would you gimp your team by NOT using the strengths? btw, i speak from experience on this. I have played with clerics who DIDNT use div power and they died alot. FUnny thing though, they died with cleric or ANY other character they built. In short, i played with them a few times and NEVER again. Stupid players should be avoided like the plague! LOL
Quote: Posted 05/20/10 03:36 (GMT) -- avado
My personal preferences were very much in line with Onion's comments: buff party, why? Heal party, why? If they require YOU so much, honestly, find a new party cuz they suck and will get you killed.
For the record, I didn't say that. I just think it's silly to willy nilly buff everyone, or to use spell slots (spontaneous or otherwise) for healing. Discussions of strongest and most effective aside, I prefer to use a cleric to buff up a meleer or two, as well as the caster, and let the other contribute to their means.
Out of curiosity, just how big are these parties your in?
More to the point, I think this post is horribly misplaced. This is not an Epic Character Build. It's just an epic character build.
I DO think there is a place for pure support in NWN. It is sort of our own playground. Not having a pure support element in an RPG makes that RPG lose one dimension. Any class split made to be support in NWN WILL have offensive capacity by default. It's impossible to make a playable nwn class without some potential for offense. With that said, it is possible to focus on the support aspect, and survivability over offense.
That said here is the latest version and it's along my original lines. Believe me this conversation has given me a lot to think about, and ideas. Apologies that my discussion of it is long, but it's like I have to qualify every choice as the criticism is available for almost every feat choice. This build is the opposite of feat-starved, it really relies on a small amount of feats. The rest is icing. Thos involved early on in the post may feel we just went backwards again, sorry!
ICC IS taken, at level 39. If anyone playing it, or I decide it's not needed, I have plenty of levels to come to that conclusion. You cannot be in imp. expertise and defensive casting mode at the same time, and that's why it is taken - also it is EASIER than needing Defensive casting mode on a slot, ease is often a focus on this build. His reflex saves ARE low, whatever you can do to help it. In the event of replacing ICC, I'd say epic fort. In place of CC, I'd say lightning reflexes, or weapon prof-martial. ICC IS useless if you cannot cast in expertise mode, but a lot of servers allow it and I think it's fair. Often a server that allows it will be balanced with that in mind and vice versa.
If anything good has come out of this it got me off of trickery domain and reminded me of the proper split. So I'm happy. This build will do fine for me. And I really doubt I am alone in that sentiment. Please do not feel sorry for me, it's not sad! AND I promise to melee plenty.
Server I played on last, boss monsters could hit for 50 without a crit, the Epic focus in conc. is not going to be without it's uses when I run in to heal someone in trouble, also rogue mobs sneak attacking can get into the 50s pre-crit and CAN interrupt you. Though I said you can get by without it and use items situationally, I resold myself on these foci, with my original intention in mind. Epic taunt taken at 21, is a bit of a steroid for that skill and you should be able to taunt even mage and cleric mobs at level reliably for some time. Later on, you may even be able to taunt the highest level bosses.
I almost have to play it this way now just to see. My last one made it to about level 24 I think. I've never levelled one all the way to 40. But that's the build I'm going with as harsh as it's criticism has been. This is the proper build, I posted the first one without looking deeply into it. I think the first one is closer to what my original build WAS. This post is THE build as far as I'm concerned, Playable is the keyword. Playable isn't aiming for the stars, I admit. And at the end of the day the build on it's own is quite unique, maybe not the most powerful, but unique yes - seems every other epic character builder would NEVER make these feat choices, lol. So at least my crime is NOT Plagiarism.
There are no hard and fast rules in NWN, there is room for every style of gameplay, room for anyone to play any toon any way they feel is right.
I have played on an LOTR server (now defunct alas) where you absolutely DID need a healer toon in the party. Their job was to heal, resurrect etc because even large, experienced, well-coordinated parties could get destroyed very easily in some areas. Greater Sanc was pretty much their default mode, and they had to watch out for lag spikes, and mobs using whirlwind on them.. Many a time there were 10 PC corpses lying on the ground, only the healer left standing, trying to figure out how to coordinate the ressurection process as effectively as possible - the mobs were still in the room, and ready to pounce.
Did the healer buff the party? Yes.
Did the healer melee? NO. Absolutely not, and if they did they were severly chastised for it, it really pi**ed ppl off.
Leveling was fairly easy, and the gameplay was all at lvl 40.. no hard slogging in the early levels.
The gameplay on this server was awesome, you really did need highly tuned, specialised toons performing their functions in a coordinated manner. Not for all areas obviously. not everyones cuppa tea, but there ya go.
Note however that you would never really see a character split like you are proposing .. this server needed CHA bards that could hit 100 perform, maxxed their taunt, and again, stayed out of melee as much as possible.
When a serious raid was organised on this server, it was a joy to be part of.
weeeeee _________________ Workings of a Chaotic-Neutral mind:
Mind to Subconscious: Sir! Host is being asked to read the rules! Subconscious to Mind: But theres pr0n to watch! Mind to Subconscious: Happy to report Host has beaten us to it! Subconscious to Mind: We ROCK!
jones you make me miss a server i never played! WOW! Your passion for that server made me want to come out of retirement to play it alas, it is no more
ICC, really? It has been so long (im thinking 2005 or early 2006) since we discussed this formally in this guild, but, if i remember right, it has to do with your concentration and casting. If i remember correctly, having a 40+ (maybe it was 35) concentration, icc becomes redundant... sort of like taking Mobility/spring attack when you have a high Tumble... SInce you are determined (which is good), you MUST have concentration, so i dont know why icc is there. Especially so late in the build.
Also, like was said, while this guy has 2 powerful classes, he wont be as good as a dedicated cleric (notice i didnt say pure) nor a dedicated bard at what they do. While i can see the support angle, in my view, they would be better served by a dedicated role vs a split one like you presented. A dedicated cleric support would have 40+ wisdom AND all the slots for that, not 20. 20 is a good wisdom for a melee cleric, not a supporter imo, for example.
That is the reason some of us hinted at melee or tank build. WIth the strengths of these 2 classes, self buffing becomes the strongest factor and thus, becomes THIS bard/cleric's true role. Alas, you can play it any way you want to, but the ICONIC bard/cleric seems to lean towards the strengths of the 2 builds in my view.
Nicely done though. most people can only see ONE version of a build and you did, what,... 5?! Excellent work.
Why raise CON? Is that just for lack of much else to do w/ the final two points? That's kinda sad, but I don't see all that much more you can do with those points. Still think they're more valuable in WIS, but I guess it aint a huge difference.
AB is awful. Really, truly, sadly awful. Can't you at least get Zen Archery in there? That would be something.
Extra Music is probably not worth it. For most of the build, your song isn't worth much, and by the time it is, you should have enough uses, or, at least, a few more won't be that significant. In any event, you're not much of a bard until at least the thirties. Spending that feat seems unnecessary.
Really my biggest problem now is the lack of a stat. Your WIS is minimal. Your CHA is minimal. Your STR and DEX are awful. I love Epic Skill Foci, but all those, and ICC, really cost you.
There's also the fact that it matures so late, especially if you're not playing it through to forty. I mean, by level 24, you're a mediocre to lousy cleric w/ bard dumps. Not impressed. If this is for your specific environment, and playstyle, I think you can accomplish your goals much better through some other means. Still, I like the concept, even if execution leaves much to be desired, and I think that at level 40, the combo could be quite good. Just don't think it really does what you want it to do (nor do I think you should want it to do what it does, but that's a different issue).
Quote: Posted 05/21/10 00:12 (GMT) -- Erombil
I DO think there is a place for pure support in NWN.
Sure, I just don't think this is it, nor is it likely to be a cleric.
Well, actually, you're going to have to take out the word "pure" above, as it doesn't mean much as is. Either that or you're gonna have to define "pure support," and that sounds too tedious to consider.
Well it's certainly going to be an experiment. I appreciate it everyone. It's actually been a good discussion and I do understand the criticism and further it's weaknesses even as a cleric with low wis AND str, I just have to try it now. Finally got my video card so time to start it. Whether I'll be satisfied with it or not at 30+, I don't know. I do have some higher standards to judge it by after all this discussion, and will have a better sense of what to look for from it I think. When I started my 38 cleric/1 monk/1 paladin, I thought I had found IT, but that wasn't exactly what I wanted. Believe me if it's a flop I will move on to something else. I'll have some sort of tank character as an alt at least.
There are some amazingly offensive cleric/bard builds out there. Like the blade juggernaught, and some of the builds that were attached on this thread, like the bard/cleric SD and bard/cleric BG. If offense is what you are after do not look here! Look to those. This build does not attempt to do that. I will agree on that loud and clear. It is a different perspective and meant for a certain playstyle that I would call support, and others may call something else.
and try to get str as high as i could (26 or so.. which may be wishful in this build). Why? cuz str based clerics rule all (yes, i am so trying to make my cleric20/rdd10/pm10 build 
)