Saving Throws (Fort/Ref/Will): 22/34/22 (+2 Vs Spells, +2 Vs Mind Effects, +2 Vs Traps, Improved Evasion)
Naked AC: 28 (31) (CBC says 32, but I'm not gonna wear Padded Armor, so it's wrong . Cat's Grace alone makes it useless). You can use the shield, but keep it in a separate quickslot, then unequip, buff up, and re-equip before tough fights.
The two above were the only ones I could find that were closer to my build, but arvut's one has too much bard, which makes him miss out on BG Epic Bonus Feats AND Sneak Attack dice while not giving him enough levels to get Bard song 20 and Lasting Inspiration, plus the leveling just wasn't to my liking.
The other one is focused on summons, and in NWN, unfortunately, summons suck. You so much as fart and they're dead. So I thought this build has enough originality to be here.
SPECIAL NOTES:
Advantages:
- Good AB for a sneaky guy (especially buffed)
- UMD juicyness
- HiPS and Epic Dodge at the earliest possible levels (8 and 27 respectively)
- Very Hard to hit (High Buffed AC + Divine Shield not to mention items, since this guy can wear monk boots and armor, 50% concealment from Improved Invisibility, Epic Dodge)
- Decent Saves + Bard Song + UMD items (Including Protection Vs Spells scrolls, which made me drop Spellcraft for better skills).
- +6d6 Sneak Attack Damage
- +10 Divine Damage with Capped CHA (attainable with Buffs + Scrolls and/or gear)
Disadvantages:
- EXTREMELY HARD to level up until you get HiPS (you should never walk alone at those early levels). After that, it's still hard, because your damage output is pathetic, but if things get ugly you can always SCRAM! Starts to grow when Blackguard levels give you sneaks, Bull's STR and Divine Might to address your lack of damage, and also better saves.
- Feat and Skill starved (I wish I could squeeze in Blind Fight, a few Great Charismas, Curse Song (which can replace IKD if you want), Max out Spellcraft and also get some Concentration and Discipline to deal with Meleers / Taunters). See what I mean? Basically, you survive by not getting hit.
- Very Low HP (Not much you can do here, get CON enhancing items, perhaps, use the Endurance spell). Again, not getting hit is the way to go . Spell Mantle scrolls are a MUST HAVE if you have ANY HOPE of surviving encounters with high-level casters.
Nonetheless, this guy should be fun to play with
So, what do you think, guys?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 06/05/10 12:15
Skill selection per level, very tricky to get it right:
01: Hide(4), Move Silently(4), Perform(4), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4), 02: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), 03: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), 04: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), 05: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), 06: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), 07: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), 08: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(5), 09: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(10), 10: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(15), 11: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(20), 12: Taunt(13), Save(11), 13: Save(15), 14: Save(19), 15: Save(23), 16: Save(27), 17: Hide(6), Move Silently(6), Perform(5), Tumble(6), UMD(10), 18: Taunt(4), 19: Taunt(4), 20: Save(4), 21: Hide(4), Move Silently(4), Tumble(4), 22: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(5), 23: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(10), 24: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Taunt(6), Tumble(1), UMD(7), 25: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(5), 26: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(10), 27: Hide(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1), Save(15), 28: Taunt(4), Save(15), 29: Taunt(1), Save(18), 30: Taunt(1), Save(21), 31: Taunt(1), Save(24), 32: Hide(5), Move Silently(5), Taunt(1), Tumble(5), UMD(8), Save(6), 33: Taunt(1), Save(9), 34: Taunt(1), Save(12), 35: Taunt(1), Save(15), 36: Taunt(1), Save(18), 37: Taunt(1), Save(21), 38: Taunt(1), Save(24), 39: Taunt(1), Save(27), 40: Hide(8), Move Silently(8), Perform(3), Taunt(1), Tumble(5), UMD(8),
Nicely DONE! There are those that say "Its all been done". Thanks for showing that that aint true! Who knows, this may even pull a build or 2 out of grizz! We can only hope! LOL
Although I thank you for the positive feedback, technically, it HAS been done before, hence the "similar builds" section. joking. Glad you liked it
As for the build. just an addendum to disadvantages:
- Easily dispellable
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 06/04/10 21:59
Just a few notes.
That's an awful lot of pre-epic feats taken in epic. By my count, four epic feats are spent on pre-epics. Makes it kinda feel like the BG bonus feats are a wasted effort. There's not a whole lot you can do. Imp crit, and the KDs, could be dropped. Epic Prowess also seems unnecessary (though, sure, I can see why you'd like to squeeze every drop out of AB), especially as it's one of those BG bonus feats. I'd easily drop three BG levels for bard levels. Bard 14 instead of EP? Heck yeah. Come to think of it, Bard 16 instead of IKD, or bard 19 instead of KD, or bard 26 instead of...
Were you not tempted by more bard, and less BG? I guess you really wanted the SA, but that's an awful lot invested for 6d6. I know a lower BG, and higher bard, build would be totally different (and probably already done), but offhand, it seems the better bet.
I shudder to imagine those fort and will saves w/out Dark Blessing. While the end result is decent (and eminently buffable), those are shockingly bad numbers all things considered. That said, the ease of buffing makes this pretty much a non-factor. Just sayin'. Wow.
HP too are shockingly awful.
Which brings me to the main point. What can this build do that another build can't do better? Seems like the AC potential is the best thing here, and plenty of other builds can accomplish that and more. So...
Also, for the record, I don't think he deserves the "extremely" in capitals. Sure, a DEX based bard isn't going to be the greatest guy out there, and may present some difficulties, but it aint that bad. I think it's enough to say that he's a bit weak until he gets SD, which is true of plenty of SD builds.
Quote: That's an awful lot of pre-epic feats taken in epic. By my count, four epic feats are spent on pre-epics. Makes it kinda feel like the BG bonus feats are a wasted effort. There's not a whole lot you can do. Imp crit, and the KDs, could be dropped. Epic Prowess also seems unnecessary (though, sure, I can see why you'd like to squeeze every drop out of AB), especially as it's one of those BG bonus feats. I'd easily drop three BG levels for bard levels. Bard 14 instead of EP? Heck yeah. Come to think of it, Bard 16 instead of IKD, or bard 19 instead of KD, or bard 26 instead of...
Were you not tempted by more bard, and less BG? I guess you really wanted the SA, but that's an awful lot invested for 6d6. I know a lower BG, and higher bard, build would be totally different (and probably already done), but offhand, it seems the better bet.
I agree, there are a LOT of pre-epic feats taken in the epics, but there are also A LOT of feats taken pre-epic that are requirements to attain a prestige class. Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge and Mobility are not even on my nice to have list. For this guy, they'd be on the "whatever" list, except they're requirements. The MUST HAVE feats are:
- Ofensively: KD and IKD (You're a Sneaker, gotta be able to generate Sneaks) Divine Might, Improved Critical (You gotta take FULL ADVANTAGE of your Divine Might Damage, which does multiply on Criticals, which is also why I chose the Rapier for the 18-20 threat range), and the AB-enhancing feats (WF, EWF, EP, Great DEXs), to make all of the above work, cuz if you can't hit them, you can't hurt them.
Defensively: 4th level Bard Spells for Improved Invisibility, Epic Dodge, Uncanny Dodge, Divine Shield, Dark Blessing, HiPS, Improved Evasion and Armor Skin to top up an already high AC.
Miscellaneous: Max UMD and Taunt (as it is both offensive and defensive, the defensive consequence of it being spell failure).
As for increasing Bard, you gotta understand the build and what it aims for before suggesting stuff like that, seriously.
This build explores some of the synergies between these 3 classes:
- Dark Blessing, Divine Might, Divine Shield + Bard's CHA Buffs.
- HiPS + BG Sneaks
- Divine Shield + Highly buffable AC and CHA + Improved Invisibility concealment bonus + Epic Dodge + HiPS + UMD Spell Mantle scrolls make him VERY HARD TO KILL, even with the sufferable HP.
Just Summarizing what each class bring into the mix:
BG: Divine Might, Divine Shield, Bull's STR, Dark Blessing, 6d6 SA damage, Fighter-type AB, 3 MUCH NEEDED Epic bonus Feats.
Bard: Tumble AC (also a SD class skill), Taunt, Bard Song, Buffs, UMD.
So each class has it's usefulness, as you can see. Now that we're on the same page, onto the next step.
The only way it'd be worth it to take more Bard would be if you went past the 20 mark for Lasting Inspiration and a better song. Then you'd also HAVE TO take Curse Song.
Now let's think about it: if you drop BG a little, you lose EP at least. Drop even more and then you get BG 10 and lose another 2 epic bonus feats. Why go BG 10 when its only uses now are Dark Blessing and Bull's Strength, which you get at level 2? But now, you're spending 2 feats on a feat-starved build to get 2 levels of a class that nets you the same as the Paladin class. WHY? Drop BG altogether then.
But then if you drop BG, you have no Sneaks. Also you increase Bard, so you get Improved Invisibility much sooner, so why HiPS? If not for HiPS, why get SD AT ALL? Voila! Increasing Bard defeats the purpose of the build. So no, I wasn't AT ALL tempted to go heavier on Bard.
For the record, you could attain "similar" results (no HiPS) with a Bard / Rogue / Paladin combo, but that means XP penalty, ALIGNMENT SHIFT and CERTAINLY 1 of 2 things, since they're mutually exclusive: you'll either lose too much pre-epic BAB or you'll have to get Epic Dodge WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY later. Although you will get higher sneak damage and be less feat-starved, so it's not totally absurd.
Quote: I shudder to imagine those fort and will saves w/out Dark Blessing. While the end result is decent (and eminently buffable), those are shockingly bad numbers all things considered. That said, the ease of buffing makes this pretty much a non-factor. Just sayin'. Wow.
HP too are shockingly awful.
Yes, the saves are all considerably buffable, that IS the whole point. Think about it: +6 from capped CHA, + 7 vs spells from protection from spells, +2 from Bard Song, Cloak of Fortification, Ring of Resistance, Amulet of Protection, so on and so forth. All your saves can get past 30+ at the very least.
As for HP it's PATHETIC, I know. At lvl 1 you got the same HP as a Wizard with +1 CON. Oh well... That IS the main weakness. Believe it or not I actually have a build with fewer HP, but it can buff them better than this one...
Quote: Also, for the record, I don't think he deserves the "extremely" in capitals. Sure, a DEX based bard isn't going to be the greatest guy out there, and may present some difficulties, but it aint that bad. I think it's enough to say that he's a bit weak until he gets SD, which is true of plenty of SD builds.
That depends. If you're alone, you're better off just killing Kobolds till you reach lvl 7 . I might have exaggerated a bit, because Weapon Proficiency (Elf) does give some MUCH NEEDED playability at the beginning. Try to imagine killing anything with only simple weapons... OH, It hurts!
Quote: Which brings me to the main point. What can this build do that another build can't do better? Seems like the AC potential is the best thing here, and plenty of other builds can accomplish that and more. So.
To answer that, I will say that this build aims takes advantage of the synergies between these 3 classes in a way that has never been done before. It's not the uberest build at something, certainly doesn't have the highest saves, the most Sneak Attack dice, or even the highest AC, although it is pretty hard to hit, but those are not the only grounds on which to post a build.
If you wanna try a different class combo, if you like originality or if you'd like to RP something like this (:evil:), then you can certainly use this guy. If not, either post your own better-than-this-one builds or keep playing the Exalted Sorceresses, Magical Marauders, Dragon Savants (now illegal) of old. On another topic, you were criticizing a guy because he posted a build that was a copycat of one of Mith's builds. Now I come here and post a build that is totally original, with enough merit to deserve its own topic, and you criticize it because there are better ones... Ever heard of the saying: "There's ALWAYS a bigger fish"? I think SOMEONE is suffering from NWN overburn! . Although I am messing with ya, the point behind the joke is still valid and should be taken seriously. It's all good
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 06/05/10 17:34 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
Now let's think about it: if you drop BG a little, you lose EP at least. Drop even more and then you get BG 10 and lose another 2 epic bonus feats. Take it EZ!
This reasoning is flawed, and very much so. If it wasn't, why take anything at all. What was suggested was tweaks, ways to improve your build without changing it.
Dropping 3 BG, and thus EP+1d6, for 3 bard? The bardsong alone would more than compensate, add to that extended durations and more spellslots. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Yah, I'm still not seeing a convincing argument for the BG levels. I also don't buy the "if you're only taking two [actually four] levels, why take any?" Why? For Dark Blessing, Divine Might, and Divine Shield. That's what you want from BG (and, in this case, full BAB). Drop BG to four, put 'em all into bard. You gain an awesome bard song, the (obvious) option of LI, and full bardic spell goodness, and, heck, we'll throw in undispellability just as a free gift.. You lose all your (unimpressive) sneak attack, some HP (heh, let's see those numbers now...), a bit of BAB, and an epic bonus feat. Seems easily worth it in my book. _________________ Y'all re all wrong, I'm right, and there's really no arguing with that.
I agree with onion, im a bard freak to the core.
but .. you could split it down the middle 14Bard 16BG 10SD.
This in my mind is the minimum workable arrangement, and not too bad a compromise.. you still have 5d6 sneaks, divine might etc and the bard song isnt tooooo gimped.
Hitpoints: 364 Skillpoints: 203 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/20/33 Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +2 BAB: 26 AB (max, naked): 39 (melee), 36 (ranged) AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 30/33 Spell Casting: Bard(5) _________________ Workings of a Chaotic-Neutral mind:
Mind to Subconscious: Sir! Host is being asked to read the rules! Subconscious to Mind: But theres pr0n to watch! Mind to Subconscious: Happy to report Host has beaten us to it! Subconscious to Mind: We ROCK!
The initial idea was to make a BG with Bard as a supporting class. That would not be accomplished with Bard 26 / BG 4 / SD 10. And tbh that kinda defeats the purpose of having SD at all, since half of the usefulness of HiPS, which is generating Sneak Attacks is lost. Then you could go Bard 23 BG 4 Rog 13 and still get ED while having decent sneak damage, but then no HiPS. Bard in this build is used for support, and for that, 11 lvls is more than enough.
With JumJones' suggestion, I'd gain 1 AB, 1 AC in the bard song and 1 Bard spell level at the expense of 1 Epic Bonus Feat and 1d6 Sneak Attack. An about even trade IMO. Spell durations kinda suck, but that's just something you have to live with. The only thing I see can be done without defeating the initial idea is taking 2 points out of DEX to get 4 CON and increase HP at the expense of 2 AB and AC. However, having 15 CHA as you posted kinda makes it not worth it taking DM and DS for only +8 CAPPED CHA bonuses to AC and damage, which also defeats half of the purpose of BG.
I am not saying that your alternatives aren't viable or even an improvement, but they go against the whole reason I even created this build. What really sucks is that BG is so worthless that only 4 lvls of it give you pretty much everything you need. Also, the 2 feats it needs as requirements heavily restrict the combo possibilities. I swear that I would rather take 4 paladin and shift alignments thrice than have to take PA and Cleave on a build that has absolutely no use for them for only 4 BG levels. Anyway, thanks for the inputs
P.S.: Grim, I will have to disagree with you. A change from Bard 11 / BG 19 / SD 10 to Bard 26 / BG 4 / SD 10 is hardly a tweak, it's more like a "do a different build" type of advice. Still valid, just not a tweak .
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 06/29/10 18:04 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
P.S.: Grim, I will have to disagree with you. A change from Bard 11 / BG 19 / SD 10 to Bard 26 / BG 4 / SD 10 is hardly a tweak, it's more like a "do a different build" type of advice. Still valid, just not a tweak .
Take it EZ!
that's not exactly disagreeing, since I never said that. I was talking about Bard14/BG16. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
. Cat's Grace alone makes it useless). You can use the shield, but keep it in a separate quickslot, then unequip, buff up, and re-equip before tough fights.
joking. Glad you liked it 
Ever heard of the saying: "There's ALWAYS a bigger fish"? I think SOMEONE is suffering from NWN overburn! 
.