Joined: 16 May 2004 From: Montreal, Quebec Profile: Sunday, 08 August 2004 08:28PM What do you guys think of a Epic Dodge, Self Concealment V Archer?
The dex would be naturaly high for those 2 requirements, spells and whatnot would rarely hit. Throw in a few monk levels for more speed as well as a few free feats that may be useful. What you think?
Like maybe; Monk/Wiz/Arcane Archer or something Monk/XX/Rogue .. Whatchoo think? ------------------- syrath1001
Joined: 21 Mar 2004 Profile: Sunday, 08 August 2004 10:39PM Have a look at the shadow archer I built ,
AT level 20 have level 10 rogue/1 wiz/9 arcane archer. then level rogue to 15. Take epic dodge and then great dex feats with archer until you have dex =30. then take rogue levels until 19, taking bonus self concelament at level 16 and 19(sprinkle some arcane archer levels so you can max tumble to 40). The normal feats should get you up to self concealment V after that and fit in epic weapon focus(longbow)
EDIT - BTW this should be posted in the general forum
Syrath Edited By syrath1001 on 08/08/04 22:42:22
-------------------- Cinnabar Din
Joined: 15 Mar 2004 From: Vancouver, B.C. Profile: Sunday, 08 August 2004 10:41PM Quote: Posted 08/08/04 19:28:17 (GMT) -- vaeku
What do you guys think of a Epic Dodge, Self Concealment V Archer?
The dex would be naturaly high for those 2 requirements, spells and whatnot would rarely hit. Throw in a few monk levels for more speed as well as a few free feats that may be useful. What you think?
Like maybe; Monk/Wiz/Arcane Archer or something Monk/XX/Rogue .. Whatchoo think?
I was actually fiddling around with a build with exactly that in mind (ED, SC V) just last night. I don't believe you can do it with Monk, as you need Defensive Roll to get ED.
My attempt was with Bard/SD/AA, but it doesn't look like a very viable build, as all your epic feats are taken by GRT DEX and SC feats, with no room for anything else (I couldn't find a way to get both ED and all 5 SC feats in the build).
Anyway, I tried it withan Elf Bard 9/SD 13/AA 18, starting with 20 DEX. _________________ "Just because some watery tart throws a sword at you, it doesn't make you a king" - Monty Python's 'Search for the Holy Grail' ------------ ------------ Cinnabar Din
Joined: 15 Mar 2004 From: Vancouver, B.C. Profile: Sunday, 08 August 2004 10:45PM Syrath,
I never tought of your build - just had a look. Nicely done. _________________ "Just because some watery tart throws a sword at you, it doesn't make you a king" - Monty Python's 'Search for the Holy Grail'
Edited By griphook on 08/08/04 22:46
Someone mentioned in my original post that a Monk would not be able to fit in this build due to feats.
I haven't attempted to build it it, I'm still searching to see if someone ahs one already. The reason for Monk at a decent level would be for the extra speed and deflect arrows.
A monk archer with massive speed that is.
Pre-requisite for Epic dodge
Improved Evasion (level 9 monk , level 10 Shadowdancer or rogue bonus feat). You can meet the prereq with monk Defensive Roll (level 5 Shadowdancer, or rogue bonus feat). Monk is unable to get this without multiclassing
However if you have a monk/shadowdancer or a monk/rogue multiclass you cannot have an arcane archer since you need an arcane spellcasting class in there. (unless you play on a server where this is disabled).
You can still get Self Concealment. This would be very difficult to get since you would have to follow something like this
So we now have level 25 monk, level 14 AA, Level 1 wiz
Not too bad a build , however you will notice a severe lack of any other feats other than Great DEX and Self concealment.
Believe me when I say Epic dodge does more for avoidance than SC 5 does. In this case however I would level up AA instead and have to stop with Self concealment 4. At least that way you will get a bit more AA bonus feats(level 18 , 22 and 26) and have level 29 AA, Level 1 Wiz, Level 10 monk. Which is a much more offensive combination, but lacks the defense of a ED, SC 5 archer
Syrath
Actualy, I still like the idea of the monk 25 though, with incredible running speed on an archer, chances of being hit will wither down as well. No?
What about no AA or Wiz and supplement with Monk/Rogue/Something worthwhile ?
What could be a good third class?
Fighter for feats maybe?
Dont barbarians get a free dodge?
Quote: Posted 08/09/04 04:08:53 (GMT) -- vaeku
What about no AA or Wiz and supplement with Monk/Rogue/Something worthwhile ?
What could be a good third class?
Fighter for feats maybe?
Dont barbarians get a free dodge?
Fighter for feats - take weapon spec/epic weapon spec Barbarians get uncanny dodge- so do rogues btw
I would still say monk/wiz/aa is probably the most offensive, its been done a few times. The reason is that AA get an ehcnatment bonus on their arrows, this increase their AB and damage as they level up
Quote: • Enchant Arrow: The arcane archer is able to shoot arrows with increased precision and damage. This ability is automatically applied to all arrows fired and increases with experience: +1 at 1st level; +2 at 3rd level; +3 at 5th level; +4 at 7th level; and +5 at 9th level.
This is a very good way of making a dex based character that can do enough damage. eg a 19th level AA gets an additional +10AB and +10 damage. This stacks with the regular enchantments on bows and arrows. (so with a normal bow you can do 1d8+10 damage)
However you could always go monk/rogue/fighter (get +6 dmg from the fighter feats). I would probably use wis as your base stat and take zen archery. You will not have the AB or the damage of the above build (1d8+6) is the best you will do.
Its up to you how you want to balance it up.
Syrath
Thanks for the input, however, the goal of the archer is to support. Now we are left with your ideas of offensiveness on a support core char versus my idea of trying to figure out a near impossible to hit char with good support capabilities.
I like survivability, and I am sure as not a soloer in PVP situations, I am team oriented. If the team survives, I survive.
With massive monk speed and decent damage I couple with the concealments I would guess the char near impossible to strike. On the small chances the archer would get caught by a melee char the Epic Dodge combined with Self Concealment will give it a guaranteed 1 hit free escape and hopefully 2-3 on the Self concealment. With the monk speed and haste the archer could easily dust off the melee attacker and retreat to other forces.
And then continue to picking off the character from afar.
What do you think?
As for mages, the concealment should be it's only defense, and even then is still quite impressive with 50% chance of spells missing.
Your pure offensive versus Hit and Run. I suppose it would all come down to a play style in the end however.
Fighter/rogue/monk
This causes a problem with the xp penalty since if you do x Monk/x rogue/ 6 fighter. You will have to alternate rogue and monk levels. Or you get a 20 percent xp penatly.
You might not think this is a problem but with this build starting at dex 18 and being human you will get DEX =30 at level 32
which means you have level 33,36 and 39 as normal feats. so lets look at it 13 monk/13 rogue/6 fighter at level 32 Also note that you do not get epic dodge here since you got rogue 13 very late.
So you can end Rogue 20/monk10/ Fighter 10 , or rogue 19, fighter 11, monk 10, or rogue 19, monk11, fighter 10.
No xp penalty has all that you need Epic weapon specialisation , monk speed, SC5 and epic dodge. Sneak attack +10d6. Ive put feat in where you should put in a feat that should complement your character. Post epic you dont really get that luxury (you can drop epic prowess for another fighter bonus feat)
Syrath
EDIT starting stats I chose were STR 10,DEX18, CON 10 , WIS 12, INT12 , CHA 8 Pump dex at all points (at least until you get dex to 30. Wis at 36 and 40 would be reasonable to do also, but you will lose +1AB and gain +1 to spell saves, no loss to AC due to monk bonus)
Syrath
Edited By syrath1001 on 08/09/04 09:18
Did you choose to get such high int and wis for the Saves on wis due to monk and int for skill points?
How did you distribute the skill pts? Tumble, and UMD and Hide and Move Silent I suppose?
The build is starting to give me a smile. I'll just go check the Monk speed for monk level 10.
So 4 Optional Feats. Depending if Discipline was maxed or not, this char could be awesome as having Maxed Discipline and taking 2 Discipline feats to make him Unknockable as well as toughness and then 1 spare feat. Aye?
The int is for skill points yes, the wis is for saves you could distribute them another way.
You need to at least get your hide to 30 by the time you get Self concealment. Tumble keep maxed (except on fighter levels).
I would also max out spellcraft for saves vs spells. Discipline would be good (take the last level as monk or fighter then to get it to max)
UMD is good also , max that.
Syrath
What are your thoughts:
I find 10 con scary. True, Epic Dodge and Self Concealment 50% does add easily 40-80 HP per round Since every first attack damage is neglected and usualy the first hits always hit on strong fighters and what not. Spells aswell if not saved we could assume that damage.
Now, either lower the Wis and Higher the con. Playtesting would be the only way to figure this out I suppose, but on a outside anaylisis only what would you prefer:
More Con, is more HP, is more HP for both Physical and Spells.
More saves, is less HP for physical and chances of neglecting some spells.
With 50% Conceal, spells are already hard to land. Anything reflex related most likely will not touch this character. Which spells are to be most feared outside of the Reflex ones? Is the Wis worth it you think?
Quote: Posted 08/09/04 22:07:24 (GMT) -- vaeku
What are your thoughts:
I find 10 con scary. True, Epic Dodge and Self Concealment 50% does add easily 40-80 HP per round Since every first attack damage is neglected and usualy the first hits always hit on strong fighters and what not. Spells aswell if not saved we could assume that damage.
Get an arena mod somewhere and try it out. Jack your AC as high as you can get it within your world. Boots of the sun soul etc. If you can force a situation where you are one on one with someone and they need to roll a 20. You will only be hit (a statistical average) of only once every 40 rounds(20 with blind fight) or so. And it wont be a crit either since crits will be impossible to land on you. Believe me when I say you dont need the hp.(every little helps I suppose)
Quote: Now, either lower the Wis and Higher the con. Playtesting would be the only way to figure this out I suppose, but on a outside anaylisis only what would you prefer:
More Con, is more HP, is more HP for both Physical and Spells.
More saves, is less HP for physical and chances of neglecting some spells.
With 50% Conceal, spells are already hard to land. Anything reflex related most likely will not touch this character. Which spells are to be most feared outside of the Reflex ones? Is the Wis worth it you think?
I think the wis is worth it. You wont lose anything by taking 14 con,10 wis, 10 int. You should still have enough skill points for key skills. In fact you might want to put it in strength for use with mighty bows. All you need is to make sure your DEX =18 at the start.
Syrath
So basicaly this archer is a near impossible to catch by melee, near impossible to hit whenever they do since the 1 in 20 or 1 in 40 rounds hit ratio. Can be considered immune to critical hits as you say (how come?). Immune to anything reflex saves (i would guess) and then only Wisdom save or Fort save spells can harm him, aye?
What would you guess the saves on this type of char?
Oh yeah, and this char wouldn't be Knockable since 2 discipline skill feats and maxed disc would prevent him from being knocked down.
Quote: Posted 08/09/04 23:46:56 (GMT) -- vaeku
So basicaly this archer is a near impossible to catch by melee, near impossible to hit whenever they do since the 1 in 20 or 1 in 40 rounds hit ratio. Can be considered immune to critical hits as you say (how come?). Immune to anything reflex saves (i would guess) and then only Wisdom save or Fort save spells can harm him, aye?
What would you guess the saves on this type of char?
Oh yeah, and this char wouldn't be Knockable since 2 discipline skill feats and maxed disc would prevent him from being knocked down.
Because of the way the crit confirmation roll works. If your AC is 21+ more than your Attacker's AB, then you can't be critted. Here's why:
A roll of 20 always hits, and will always be a critical threat. No problem, you get hit. Then the critical confirmation roll comes next. Highest you can roll is a 20, but a 20 on the confirmation roll is not an automatic crit. Thus, if your AC is 21 or more above your attacker's AB, you can't be critted because the confirmation roll can't get high enough.
Example: Your AC is 65 and your attacker's AB is 44. He rolls a 20 for 64. 20 is an automatic hit, so he hits you. Then the confirmation roll comes up 20 as well for another total of 64. However, this is not high enough to hit 65 AC because a 20 on the confirmation roll is not an automatic crit. Ergo, you're crit-immune. Nice, huh? _________________ "Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
How would we go about calculating the naked AC and then the +5 AC of this char.
With 12 wis, 30 dex 40 Skill pts into Tumble Monk ac bonus with the 12 wis. Does dex count in monk ac? +nat ac.
What is the base AC??
...Someone tried the Rogue/Wiz/AA and that didn't work out to well. Even with corrections, it wasn't all that good. Monk and Rogue don't need to be in the same build unless you are getting one level so you can use other monk like skills. Both Rogue and Monk get access to Evasion/Imp Evasion, but Rogue is the only one who can get access to Defensive Roll.
...Use the Puck build as a referrence, but instead of knockdown, weapon focus/epic weapon focus: shortsword, weapon specialization/epic weapon specialization: Shortsword, improve critical: short sword and improve knockdown, you pick point blank shot, rapid shot, weapon focus/epic weapon focus: shortbow, improve critical shortbow, weapon specialization/epic weapon specialization: Shortbow.
...With HIPs, you can cast most of your enemies by surprise. _________________ Which Stick are you? Click Here
Edited By TyrPaladin on 08/10/04 03:52
Quote: Posted 08/10/04 02:28:47 (GMT) -- vaeku
How would we go about calculating the naked AC and then the +5 AC of this char.
With 12 wis, 30 dex 40 Skill pts into Tumble Monk ac bonus with the 12 wis. Does dex count in monk ac? +nat ac.
What is the base AC??
Base AC of every character is 10, so the AC of this character would be:
10 base 1 (WIS bonus) 10 (DEX bonus - yes it counts) 8 (Tumble bonus) 5 (Monk bonus)
Total: 34 naked AC
If you have +5 items of all AC types and Haste that would net you 24 more (I'll assume you won't have a shield)
Total: 58 AC.
I'm not sure my calculations are completely accurate, but that should be in the ballpark. _________________ "Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
Base 34 AC,
Ring of Protection +5 Amulet of natural Armour +5 Robe of the Dark Moon +4 due to haste Bracers of Armour +5 Boots of the sun Soul+5
Since he is a bowman cant use a shield anyway (and would lose monk bonus if he did)
So yes 58 AC is accurate. So for every +1 magic more than +5 you can get you get +4 AC. So a +10 world would get you another +20 AC.
This also doesnt include any bonuses to dex through items like belt of agility etc.
BTW if your world has +5 items in it , I wouldnt consider you to be immune to criticals since a decent fighter will be able to hit you with less than a 20. Epic dodge, and SC5 will still have a huge impact on your survivability though.
Syrath
Edited By syrath1001 on 08/10/04 07:31
I got to 60 AC with max of +5 items on armor and dex and wis.
60 ac. It's high, but I don;t think that is immune to crits since some fighter builds get to 60+ bab easily.
Yes, usually when I build like this I usually would prefer to have access to a shield and improved expertise which can boost your AC by 18 pts. (+5 items)
However, it should still serve you well pvm and against more average AB. Even against a fighter with 5 attacks per round if 5 attacks hit then first one misses, other 2 miss due to SC. so only 2/5 of the attacks hit in this case.
Syrath
So if the ratio is 40% hit. If each hit is 50 damage, at 10 con on this build I was around 220 HP at level 40.
Thats 100 dmg per round to kill this char. 3 rounds and this char is dead. Take away SC and EDodge and imagine 4 of 5 hit then that would be 200 per round. so again, 3 rounds to kill a 500-600 HP fighter.
The hit ratio PLEASE must be lower then 2 of 5 hit. It just gotta!
Now, to be Crit immune vs a fighter. Usualy they have from 55 to 75 Bab, that means armor of 76 to 86 is needed to be immune to that?
My ac was merely 60. 70 if Imp Expertise is on, but that isn't usefull since the archer is incredibly fast and will probably not be caught by any fighter if you ask me.
I cannot tell you what the hit ratio is but i will try to give some examples based on 4 attacks per round
require 20 to hit roughly 1 hit every 40 rounds (effect of epic dodge alone btw)
Require 19 to hit = 1/10 chance to hit once , 3/10 chance to hit with rest of attacks so 3/100 chance to get hit or 3 hits in 25 rounds (roughly 1 hit every 8 rounds)
Require 18 to hit = 3/20 chance to hit once, 9/20 chance to hit with rest of attacks. so 27 hits every 400 attacks. Roughly 1 hit every 4 rounds
Require 17 to hit = 1/5 chance to hit once 12/20 chance to land second hit. 12 hits every 100 attacks. Rougly 1 hit every 2 rounds
... Require 2 to hit = 19/20 chance to hit once and 57/20 chance to hit a second time. = 2.5 hits per round
These are approximations the exact calculations are much more complex than this and would take pages.
Now compare this without Epic dodge 20 to hit = 1 hit every 5 rounds = 8 * more damage 19 to hit = 1 hit every 2.5 rounds = 4 * more damage 18 to hit = 1 hit every 2 rounds = 2 * more damage 2 to hit = 4 hits per round = 1.6 * more damage.
This is before the effects of self concealment
Which halfs the damage taken (except with blind fight fighters which is 25 percent reduction in damage)
So 20 to hit = 1/16 of the damage you would take normally 19 to hit = 1/8 of the damage you would take normally 18 to hit = 1/4 of the damage you would take normally ... 2 to hit = 1/3 of the damage you would take normally.
These are examples of a fight one on one with a fighter with 4 attacks.
This reduction in damage gives you that time to run out of range.
As you can see though the greatest effect is where there is the possibility to get your AC that high.
I find it strange though that you are quoting an AB of 75 for melee with items restricted as you say.
Take 50 AB ( very good for a naked melee fighter IMO). Add in +5 for enchantment gives +55. Add in some strength and there isnt much more (this is for a strength of around 30 and at level 40 with +5 items)
How they get an AB 20 higher than this I dont know considering that +20 is the highest enchantment/buff you can get on attack.SO I would say 70 AB with really good buffs and some +5 weapons.
Syrath
Quote: Posted 08/10/04 15:44:06 (GMT) -- vaeku
The hit ratio PLEASE must be lower then 2 of 5 hit. It just gotta!
Ok here is an example of a fighter with +60 AB and you have an ac of 62.
Rolls required to hit are 2/7/12/17
Chance of getting rolling a hit on the first hit = 95 % = 47.5 % with SC 5
Chance of rolling a hit on the second hit = 70 % = 35 % with SC 5
Chance of rolling a hit on the third hit = 40 % = 20 % with SC 5
Chance of rolling a hit on the fourth hit 15 % = 7.5 % with SC5
Im going to assume the person will do 50 damage per hit
Now lets see what the chances are to get 2 hits in on the same round when you have SC 5 (47.5% *35%) + (47.5%*20%) + (47.5%*7.5%) + (35%*20%) +(35%*7.5%) + (20%*7.5%) or 0.16625 + 0.095 + 0.035625 +0.07 +0.02625 + 0.015 = 40.8125% chance of getting hit in one round or 30 damage per round
Compare this with the original 95+70+40+15 = 220 % chance to get hit or 2.2 hits per round at 50 damage =110 damage per round
The approximations in the above post are very general but I find them ok for quick approximations. The ones in this post are 100 percent accurate(I think ).
This does not figure in blind fight.
Syrath
Thanks. I suppose all taht is left is to make the build and try it out.
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