My dear friends, I have challenge for you, I need a new build
I am playing on a server where the critters crit hard. So I need those 10 lvls of pm to crit immune. This means the following: - I need some bard levels to go pm - I need 10 lvls of pm
Now I need to decide on the other class foor good AB. Just to clarify: I dont need many attacks, I need to hit.
It will have to be a DEX char, so I need some epic / uncanny dodge. Evasion or improved evasion is also very welcome.
Any ideas?? Thanks
An AC of 60 is very high without items. If you are looking for a build with items let us know what type you have available (+5, +10 etc.) This would give us a better idea of how to build your build. If its +5 items then its quite easy to get an AC of 60. Without buffs there are perhaps 1 or 2 types of builds that can get the AC that high.
Syrath
Thanks for your swift response. There are many +5 items where i play, even many +7. But I think using those items I am aiming at 70+ Maybe 80 perhaps?
If you are taking Palemaster for immunity to critical then you are wasting your time from what I can see.
If you can get your AC to 20 more than your attackes AB then you will be immune to critical.
A simple Fighter/Rogue build could do this quite easy. As can a Fighter/SD build with the items you have available.
Have a look at the epic builds and look for the not so dashing swashbuckler. With HotU items only AC was in the 80s.
Syrath
It's a fine build indeed, but the crits on the server I play at are truly insane. So trust me, I need the pm levels.
Maybe a bard/pm/aa?
I have an alternate idea for you. Try a monk 9/druid 31. What you can do when fighting those heavy crit hitting enemies is change to elemental form. Not only are you immune to crits, but you are also immune to sneak attacks in this form. Also you have some minor damage reduction. The monk levels will help your AC and enhance your unarmed fighting in elemental shapes.
Quote: Posted 08/23/04 11:17:00 (GMT) -- tanassi
It's a fine build indeed, but the crits on the server I play at are truly insane. So trust me, I need the pm levels.
Maybe a bard/pm/aa?
Ok lets say you have +7 items and you take a class with umd.
BASE AC 10 DEX bonus (for 32 dex +12 from items) =18 Tumble = 8 SO 36 AC
Bracer of armor +7 makes it 43 Robe of dark moon (or haste item) makes it 47 Tower Shield +7 makes 57 Ring of protection +7 makes 64 Amulet of natural armor +7 makes 71 Boots of the sun soul +5 makes 76
Using improved expertise pushes this to 86 with +7 items.
If you have access to +10 items then you can add at least another 12 to this giving 98 AC.
This means that your opponent needs an AB of 78 to beat your AC. This is about the maximum AB you can get.
Syrath
I am not a big number cruncher, but the ab of the tough ones is 82 (or 86, cant remember). Andre there are quite a lot of them.
The server is Aventia, you might know it.
I dont want to be stubborn but I really need the crit immune to survive.
Can it be wizard, or must it be bard
Syrath
Id like it to be bard for the better ab. I still want to hit things
Oh and Emrill, that is a good idea, but somehow I dont like the shifters. So id like to focus on a dexy kinda pm melee char.
STR 10 DEX 18 CON 10 WIS 10 INT 10 CHA 14
Able to cast level 4 bard spells, 10 levels of PM for 6 AC bonus and immunity to criticals, +10d6 sneak attack, and epic dodge and self concealment.
+15 bab at level 20 for 3 attacks per round(if you want more attacks then you could choose Ambidexterity/2 weapon fighting, and imp 2 weapon fighting at levels 6/9 and 15 take knockdown at 18)
Hows that .
Syrath
PS if you want wizard you lose 1 AB and you need to drop cha and take more int. I would drop CHA and WIS by 2 and increase your INT to 16. That way you can carry on increasing your spells(using scrolls) as you go up. but level 4 bard spells are probably good enough. Wizard wont give you a max discipline rank however.
I like that, i really like that.
Question though, why would we pick knockdown, isnt that strength based?
Also, what will be the attack sequence, and what will be the ac at the end?
BASE AC 10 DEX +10 Tumble +8 Palemaster +6
So base = 34 AC , plus your items.
AB should be +38/35/33 . Dual wield would be main +36/+31/+26 offhand would be +36/+31 before items or buffs.
As for knockdown , if you are fighting something or someone without discipline you will knock them down and make them open for sneak attack.
The check for knockdown is based on your attack roll.
So if you have +45 AB and roll 15 , they must use discipline to roll against a roll of 60. Once they are on their back you can get stuck in with sneak attacks and when you have 3 or 4 free attacks with +10d6 this can hurt quite a bit.
Syrath
Aww you didn't like my elemental druid idea .
Quote: Posted 08/23/04 13:20:39 (GMT) -- tanassi
I am not a big number cruncher, but the ab of the tough ones is 82 (or 86, cant remember). Andre there are quite a lot of them.
The server is Aventia, you might know it.
I dont want to be stubborn but I really need the crit immune to survive.
I've played on Aventia some and I found a bard/pm/AA works really well. The problem with Archers on Aventia is the really nice arrows are very hard to come by and don't last very long, so a lot of the time your dmg output is sub par. It's fun to tank as an archer though, and when things get tough epic warding saves the day every time.
This is my bard/pm/aa with calcuations for ab/ac I did specifically for Aventia.
Bard 5/ PM 16/AA 19
Elf str 10 dex 20 con 12 int 10 wis 8 chr 12
4 bard 6 PM 10 AA
6 AA 10 PM 3 AA 1 Bard
1 Point blank shot 3 Weapon focus longbow 6 Rapid shot 9 Toughness 12 imp crit longbow 15 dodge 18 Called Shot 21 Ep WF Long 24 Armor Skin, Gr Dex 1 27 Gr Dex 2 30 Gr Dex 3 33 Gr Dex 4, Ep Energy Res Fire 36 EP MA, Ep Warding 38 Gr Dex 5 39 Gr Dex 6
Some other good tanking aventia builds I've seen are a Wiz 24/PM 10/Dwd 6 with immune to crits, lvl 9 spells(IGMS), high con, epic dmg reduction, epic spells(EP warding, Ep MA, Ep Hellball), uncanny dodge/defensive awareness(helps alot and makes you immune to sneak unless prone). This makes an excellent character that is nigh invulnerable pretty much no matter what that uses IGMS to dish out dmg. Though this build may not be the best on some servers, it really shines in the insane mob world of aventia. Also Shifter/Druid builds with Risen Lord/Dragon Form/Rakasha do awesome as well. Aventia is a lot about the equipment though.
tanassi,
There are few things that you might want to look out for in the server...
This is how I find right build for servers that I join.
-Which character is the dominant of the server, melee or caster? -High or Low Magic server? -Level limitation? (ie; 20 is the max, or 35 is the max, etc etc) -Starting Level?
There are more though, but those four are what I keep in mind.
I am assuming in your case, the melee is the dominant since you mentioned that many of them have high criticals. And it would be best to have some critical immunity (but the problem is, any type of rogue can bypass that with death attack).
If your server is low in magic, then the caster class will likely to be powerful; ie any arcane caster.
I have no idea about the last two.
Anyway, since the server is pretty average in magical stuff, +5 and I am assuming that the 7+ is the cap for the server. Many of those would not be effective against druid/shifter build, why? There are many advantages... especially with dragon shape. You get critcal immunity, just the same as some other shapes that you can transform into. But the main advantage of the dragon shape is their breath attack, they can utterly hurt the melee characters with it, the highest I have tested with this type of character is that you can score approx. 200+ damage against 15 AC creature. As for those with 60 AC, you can damage them and never miss with the breath weapon, except that the damage reduces to 12-20 to 15-40.
But, there is one shape that can withstand +5, that would be either risen lord or demonflesh golem. But, the Demonflesh golem is the first in the damage reduction amount, they can take three different type of weapon damage.
And if you plan it right, you can get infinite humanoid and epic humanoid shape, which gives you lizardfolk whipmaster. You can use that shape to disarm those with melee weapon, once they are disarmed, you can switch to outsider shape, raskahsa and cast couple icestorm, then switch to dragon shape and use the breath weapon... woot!
Anuis
Remember that breath weapons however are weak against rogue types (improved evasion). The high reflex saves and improved evasion can hinder your progress.
However the shifter build can always swap forms and go for something more appropriate.
Remember that breath weapons however are weak against rogue types (improved evasion). The high reflex saves and improved evasion can hinder your progress.
However the shifter build can always swap forms and go for something more appropriate.
Syrath
That is why I mentioned Demonflesh Golem. Well, any construct shapes has immunity to sneak attack.
Anuis
Yup. They could even tailor to rizen lord if the boss is using slash or pierce attacks. That will make them very easily damaged. Or to death slaad lord when you want to fire off a ranged touch attack that bypasses damage resist.
Oh btw dragon form isn't immune to crits. It is only immune to sneak attacks.
Yup. They could even tailor to rizen lord if the boss is using slash or pierce attacks. That will make them very easily damaged. Or to death slaad lord when you want to fire off a ranged touch attack that bypasses damage resist.
Oh btw dragon form isn't immune to crits. It is only immune to sneak attacks.
Quote: Posted 08/23/04 19:57:40 (GMT) -- Anuis
Anyway, since the server is pretty average in magical stuff, +5 and I am assuming that the 7+ is the cap for the server. Many of those would not be effective against druid/shifter build, why? There are many advantages... especially with dragon shape. You get critcal immunity, just the same as some other shapes that you can transform into. But the main advantage of the dragon shape is their breath attack, they can utterly hurt the melee characters with it, the highest I have tested with this type of character is that you can score approx. 200+ damage against 15 AC creature. As for those with 60 AC, you can damage them and never miss with the breath weapon, except that the damage reduces to 12-20 to 15-40.
Woah woah woah... let me clear up a few things here.
Dragon shape does NOT get immunity to criticals, only sneak attacks.
Your opponent's AC has absolutely nothing to do with your dragon breath weapon. They have to make a reflex save, the DC of which depends on your druid/shifter levels. The reflex save is for half (so Evasion and Improved Evasion can really kill it).
Quote: But, there is one shape that can withstand +5, that would be either risen lord or demonflesh golem. But, the Demonflesh golem is the first in the damage reduction amount, they can take three different type of weapon damage.
The demonflesh golem has 30/+3 DR. A +5 weapon will cut right through it, as will even a +3. The risen lord form has 50% slash/pierce immunity flat out, so even if you had a +20 weapon your damage is effectively halved (as long as it's not a blunt weapon).
Also a shifter in a high magic world gets screwed over. Everyone can stock up on +5 AC items, but the shifter can only take the highest AC bonus from any item... so someone getting +20 from items can easily outclass the +5 AC that the shifter's getting. Also, nothing else stacks... ability score bonus, save bonuses, resistances, etc. So the higher magic you get, the weaker the shifter gets... and the lower magic you get, the stronger the shifter gets. _________________ "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
Quote: Posted 08/23/04 23:49:15 (GMT) -- MA Sword
Woah woah woah... let me clear up a few things here.
Dragon shape does NOT get immunity to criticals, only sneak attacks.
Hm.. I thought they did.. will have to look into the immunities in the toolset and see what they actually have.
Quote: Your opponent's AC has absolutely nothing to do with your dragon breath weapon. They have to make a reflex save, the DC of which depends on your druid/shifter levels. The reflex save is for half (so Evasion and Improved Evasion can really kill it).
Then why were the creature with 60 be able to reduce the damage? The testing creature that I did it against was only AC purpose, no ability modifers, etc.
Quote: The demonflesh golem has 30/+3 DR. A +5 weapon will cut right through it, as will even a +3. The risen lord form has 50% slash/pierce immunity flat out, so even if you had a +20 weapon your damage is effectively halved (as long as it's not a blunt weapon).
I did not say that they would be immune.. I said that they would be able to withstand some damage.
Quote: Also a shifter in a high magic world gets screwed over. Everyone can stock up on +5 AC items, but the shifter can only take the highest AC bonus from any item... so someone getting +20 from items can easily outclass the +5 AC that the shifter's getting. Also, nothing else stacks... ability score bonus, save bonuses, resistances, etc. So the higher magic you get, the weaker the shifter gets... and the lower magic you get, the stronger the shifter gets.
That is why I said this in first place
Quote: If your server is low in magic, then the caster class will likely to be powerful; ie any arcane caster.
Which meant that druid/shifter can be powerful in that circumstance.
Anuis
Quote: Posted 08/24/04 00:56:52 (GMT) -- Anuis
Hm.. I thought they did.. will have to look into the immunities in the toolset and see what they actually have.
Immunity to mind spells, sneak attacks, and I believe paralysis. Also 5/+1 DR and immunity to the appropriate element. I'm about 98% sure on that, so might want to double check.
Quote:
Quote: Your opponent's AC has absolutely nothing to do with your dragon breath weapon. They have to make a reflex save, the DC of which depends on your druid/shifter levels. The reflex save is for half (so Evasion and Improved Evasion can really kill it).
Then why were the creature with 60 be able to reduce the damage? The testing creature that I did it against was only AC purpose, no ability modifers, etc.
Honestly don't have a clue if all you changed was the AC and not their reflex saves. Might want to test that one again and watch the combat log carefully.
Also, there appears to be a bug with dragon shape, at least in my experiences (it might be due to a custom script on the server that I'm not aware of)... if you're on your last dragon shape of the day, your breath weapon will do pitiful amounts of damage. Perhaps that's what you ran into, or something else funky was going on, but in my experiences I can confirm that AC has nothing to do with damage taken (I do as much to a 60 AC cleric I was fighting as I did to a big group of goblins).
Quote:
Quote: The demonflesh golem has 30/+3 DR. A +5 weapon will cut right through it, as will even a +3. The risen lord form has 50% slash/pierce immunity flat out, so even if you had a +20 weapon your damage is effectively halved (as long as it's not a blunt weapon).
I did not say that they would be immune.. I said that they would be able to withstand some damage.
Here's where I get mixed up:
Quote: But, there is one shape that can withstand +5, that would be either risen lord or demonflesh golem. But, the Demonflesh golem is the first in the damage reduction amount, they can take three different type of weapon damage.
Just wanted to point out that the demonflesh is no better at standing up to a +5 weapon than any other construct (immunity to crits will still help)... but the risen lord will do a good job of standing up to it with its 50% slash/pierce immunity.
Quote:
Quote: Also a shifter in a high magic world gets screwed over. Everyone can stock up on +5 AC items, but the shifter can only take the highest AC bonus from any item... so someone getting +20 from items can easily outclass the +5 AC that the shifter's getting. Also, nothing else stacks... ability score bonus, save bonuses, resistances, etc. So the higher magic you get, the weaker the shifter gets... and the lower magic you get, the stronger the shifter gets.
That is why I said this in first place
Quote: If your server is low in magic, then the caster class will likely to be powerful; ie any arcane caster.
Which meant that druid/shifter can be powerful in that circumstance.
Anuis
When you said...
Quote: Anyway, since the server is pretty average in magical stuff, +5 and I am assuming that the 7+ is the cap for the server.
I thought that was a high magic server in my mind, didn't register the "since the server is pretty average in magical stuff" at first, sorry.
Also, I guess I don't tend to think of shifters as "casters"... or anything, really. They're a breed of their own. _________________ "Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
Quote: Posted 08/24/04 01:57:11 (GMT) -- MA Sword
Immunity to mind spells, sneak attacks, and I believe paralysis. Also 5/+1 DR and immunity to the appropriate element. I'm about 98% sure on that, so might want to double check.
I will take your word for it.
Quote: Honestly don't have a clue if all you changed was the AC and not their reflex saves. Might want to test that one again and watch the combat log carefully.
Will test it again when I get chance to.
Quote: Also, there appears to be a bug with dragon shape, at least in my experiences (it might be due to a custom script on the server that I'm not aware of)... if you're on your last dragon shape of the day, your breath weapon will do pitiful amounts of damage. Perhaps that's what you ran into, or something else funky was going on, but in my experiences I can confirm that AC has nothing to do with damage taken (I do as much to a 60 AC cleric I was fighting as I did to a big group of goblins).
I have read in several forums about that.... even in one of the topic in here or Epic Build thread... really can't remember now... LOL.
If that is the case... I am hoping that Bioware will be fixing that in next patch... But I believe it might make the build illegal, but if it is scripting problem, never mind that then.
Quote: Just wanted to point out that the demonflesh is no better at standing up to a +5 weapon than any other construct (immunity to crits will still help)... but the risen lord will do a good job of standing up to it with its 50% slash/pierce immunity.
No problem... at least I am learning something
Quote: I thought that was a high magic server in my mind, didn't register the "since the server is pretty average in magical stuff" at first, sorry.
Also, I guess I don't tend to think of shifters as "casters"... or anything, really. They're a breed of their own.
No problem about that... many have differenty perspective on the server scale. For me, it is average... because if you made your own custom module, you can easily make items that would give you 20+ for certain traits, such as AB, etc. And 12+ for abilities. But since that server would be capped at 7, it is close to average, but yet close to high magic. But if you think about it... I go by average of both 20+ and 12+, but since both would be capped at 7+, that would be 14(7+7)/2 = 7 while 20+12/2 = 16.
That is how I rate the server... others may have different styles of rating them. Basically 16 is the highest, while 0 is the lowest.
16-High in magic stuff 8-Average, half stuff you might find would be enchanted. 0-Low in magic stuff, mostly none of them exist.
Since it has rating of 7, it is average, next to 8. I am not sure if that make any sense....
Anyway... as for the shifter... They are not really caster class per se, but druid is. They use magic to boost their abilities, trap the enemy, charm monsters, etc. So I consider that caster character.
As I said, we have different views or perspectives on what that and this is.
Anuis
I should mention that Aventia has custom scripting for shifted forms, as well as the ability to get past lvl 40 and increase spell damage at later levels. So unless you understand the changes the server made(I'm not even sure on how shifters were changed) there is no way you can give him a good build. There are +7/30 items, 10/- magic reduction items, very powerful high lvl items etc etc.
Basicly you make a build to take advantage of equipment and for post lvl 40 play. Not really something in the realm of this guild. Good melee chars and archers will still work good in aventia but don't even try and touch casters/shifters.
Emrill, Syrath and Evo, Thank you very much for your replies. This topic has exactly turned out as I wished it would: Which char works well on Aventia.
First of all I found out the chars with 10 lvls of pm will still get post lvl 40 bonusses in the near future. So by the time I am up to lvl 40 I should be ok.
Actually good arrows can be found quite easily on Aventia, so that wont be a prob. And its true, Ive seen high level AA's shine in melee, as long as they have good items.
I dont see many shifters in Aventia and there is probably a reason for it. And Aventia is indeed about items, and with shifters you loose a lot of those benefits.
This all leaves open these 2 builds: Bard 5/ PM 16/AA 19 Wiz 24/PM 10/Dwd 6
I think they are both execellent and exactly what I need. I am more tempted to go for the AA build because it is good in melee.
On the other hand, magic really rules aventia, so for the longer term I might opt for the wiz build.
Can any of you work out that wiz build a little further, so I will know which feats to pick etc? Thanks!
Great topic!
I think yrtsns Juggernaut build would work here really well
Race: Dwarf Alignment: LN Starting Stats (Ending Stats) [Shifted Stats] STR 14 [21] DEX 14 (20) CON 17 (21) [19] WIS 14 INT 12 CHA 6 [8]
Final stats (Shifted means Risen Lord): Shifted HP: 668 [7*8 (druid) + 11*8 (shifter) + 22*12 (dwd) + 40 (toughness) + 160 (con)+ [1]60? (risen lord shape)] Now, this HP is actually lower than what I got. I’m guessing that Risen Lord gives more than 60 hp when you shift, but the information I have says 60. When I shifted my un-rerolled test character, his hp jumped from 547 to 707, or 160.) 21 AC Naked. 34 AC Naked, Shifted. 38 AC Naked, Shifted, Defensive Stance. (It’s important to note that dex bonuses travel over to the shape’s AC, even when wearing a full plate. Whether this will be true in the next patch or not is hard to say. The plate’s base AC doesn’t carry over, so I would assume that the dex bonus will always be there.) With a mundane scythe, Shifted AB: +41/+36/+31/+26, dmg: 2-8 + 7 (19-20 x4) With Defensive Stance, Shifted AB: +42/+37/+32/+27, dmg: 2-8 + 9 (19-20 x4)
Saves: Regular (Shifted) Fortitude: 31 (30) [+8 against spells] Reflex: 28 (28) [+8 against spells, with improved evasion] Will: 29 (29) [+8 against spells] Spell Resistance Shifted: 20 Damage Resistance: 24/- Damage Resistance Shifted: 24/- and 15/+5 (not sure if they stack or not), plus 50% immunity to pierce/slash. Immunities: Critical, Death Magic, Disease, Negative Level, Ability Decrease, Mind Spells, Paralysis, Poison, Sneak Attack.
Pros: Solid HP, can soak 3 Max IGMS without any Con bonus. Moderate AC. AB comparable to most melee characters, though a few points low. Nice saves. Ridiculous physical resistance, with 24/- and 50% immunity to both pierce and slash. Pesky archers = pesky mosquitos. And with immunity to both critical and sneak attack... you’ll be tanking all freaking day against the vast majority of melee fighters. Tons of immunities. Items meld with Risen Lord form, at least in theory... (Can you say prismatic immunities?) Vampiric scythe +2. Get feats Cleave, Whirlwind Attack with Risen Lord shape.
Cons: AB is low enough to cause problems against some. Str boosting items can help alleviate this problem somewhat. Damage output is pretty low, although the x4 criticals help. Undead weaknesses. Can be somewhat tough to level until about 27 at which point you get your shape.
As a final note, you may want to consider dropping either Epic Reflexes or Epic Will, or both, in favor of Epic Energy Resistance feats, in order to fend better against enchanted melee attacks. Only do this if you don’t have access to decent elemental resist items. Fire is probably the most common, with spells like darkfire and flame weapon.
I was never into shifters, but if I make one, Id make it like that. Sounds really cool.
I am glad its not a dragon, I dont like those builds. They are to big on the screen and to bulky to go down small corridors. Just dont like em!
One thing to keep in mind is patch 1.64 changes some shifter form stats.
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