I've tried a couple in the Novice to Epic mod and they would seem to be a fun character to run.
I'd plan on essentially taking Rogue until I can get the necessary feats to become a BG. Then I'd max out BG to help me get the BAB for 4 attacks/round. Perhaps take a level of SD to get the HIPS feat, then the rest Rogue.
Thought I'd take advantage of the BG's sneak attacks, as well as being able to create a critter to use as a meat shield for my sneak attack-type ability.
Anyways .. was wondering which way you would go with such a build. Should I go STR based, or DEX based?
If I go STR based, I can get Overwhelming Crit, as well as take larger weapons for more damage (maybe swing a couple of Katana's for some decent crit/sneak attack damage). The build's STR can also help when not dealing with sneak attackable critters too.
If I go DEX based, I can get Epic Dodge as well as Weapon Finesse (maybe swing a couple of Short Swords or Kukri's). Of course it also helps on the ol' AC too.
What do you all think?
Thanks!
Joe C.
Here's what I came up with in an epic trainer mod. I went with the shadowy and lithe dual blade-wielding striker rather than the hulking strength-based build. I'll put it up here so the others can improve it. If you like it, great. If you think you may try it, be sure to build it yourself in a trainer mod. I've taken some cold meds today so my notes might be off a bit I call her....
Shadow Striker Rogue 13/BG 25/SD 2 Race: Human Alignment: Any Evil
Stats Str 14 Dex 14 (finish: 24) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14
Rogue Sneak Attack: +7d6, BG Sneak Attack +8d6 Naked AC 27 HP 394 BA 27 AB with two mundane short swords: 36/31/26/21 | 36/31 Fort Save 24 Reflex Save 29 Will Save 17 Feats Maxed: Disable Trap, Open Locks, Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD
Post-build thoughts: I'd probably move the Dodge and Mobility feats to earlier in the build to permit getting Shadowdance 1 sooner (for HIPS of course).
Edited By Kaliban99 on 09/28/04 17:58
With 13 rogue 2 SD and only 24 dex, I only have one thing to say... 1 more dex and you can have epic dodge. And Blackguard of course can "cast" Imp. Invis. if I'm not mistaken. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Quote: Posted 09/28/04 21:52:10 (GMT) -- yrtsns
With 13 rogue 2 SD and only 24 dex, I only have one thing to say... 1 more dex and you can have epic dodge. And Blackguard of course can "cast" Imp. Invis. if I'm not mistaken.
Onlh 1 more dex, eh? Perhaps a Great Dex feat, or some tweaking of the initial stats. With so many 14's there is definitely some place to pull the extra point of dex from.
Does this character get Great Dex feats? I can't recall if I saw them.
Thanks for the input. That's just what we need.
Kaliban.
Quote: Posted 09/28/04 12:31:14 (GMT) -- JettaJoe
I've tried a couple in the Novice to Epic mod and they would seem to be a fun character to run.
I'd plan on essentially taking Rogue until I can get the necessary feats to become a BG. Then I'd max out BG to help me get the BAB for 4 attacks/round. Perhaps take a level of SD to get the HIPS feat, then the rest Rogue.
Thought I'd take advantage of the BG's sneak attacks, as well as being able to create a critter to use as a meat shield for my sneak attack-type ability.
Anyways .. was wondering which way you would go with such a build. Should I go STR based, or DEX based?
If I go STR based, I can get Overwhelming Crit, as well as take larger weapons for more damage (maybe swing a couple of Katana's for some decent crit/sneak attack damage). The build's STR can also help when not dealing with sneak attackable critters too.
If I go DEX based, I can get Epic Dodge as well as Weapon Finesse (maybe swing a couple of Short Swords or Kukri's). Of course it also helps on the ol' AC too.
What do you all think?
Thanks!
Joe C.
If Devastating Critical isn't banned on your server, I would DEFINITELY go Str-based. Wield a Rapier or dual-Kukris and when you come out of the shadows...BAM!!! you're dead.
If you can only get Overwhelming Critical then it may not be worth it. Go Dex-based and get Epic Dodge instead. If you were doing a Scythe-wielding WM build then I'd say it might be worth it, because you could do some crazy damage on those criticals.
Although Blackguard is a decent choice, I'd probably take Fighter levels instead. If you do a Rogue 29/Fighter 10/SD 1, you get 11 bonus feats; 6 from Fighter and 5 from Rogue. This is 6 more bonus feats than the Rogue 13/BG 25/SD 2.
You will still get 15d6 base sneak attacks (i.e. without any Improved Sneak Attack feats), and even if you spend a couple of your feats to get Epic Weapon Spec for +6 damage to every attack you will still end up with 4 more feats. Not only that, but you get a LOT more skill credits by taking more Rogue levels than you would if you took BG.
Of course, you don't get the spell-like abilities, or the summons and what not, but it would still be a pretty strong build.
Quote: Stats Str 14 Dex 14 (finish: 24) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14
I suggest starting with less chr personally. You gain the benefits of slightly improved saves but it's not really a big deal. Drop chr to 10 and start with 16 dex. Then take 13th rogue level at 38 or something and take defensive roll. You'll have 25 dex so grab epic dodge at 39. Also if you can take anything other than epic toughness, do so. Save feats like epic weapon focus, epic prowness, armor skin to take during blackguard bonus feats and devote normal feats to great dex or something. You could end up with about 30 dex easily which will help your ac and ab quite a bit.
Thanks for the great input thus far .. really helps out bouncing ideas off of more seasoned builders such as yourselves.
I am playing in a world that has DC nerfed, so perhaps it might be more worth it to go with a Dex build char. Especially since in one place I've found a really good set of Kukri's.
Tho .. was thinking (very sad and dangerous thing) but thought about perhaps a .. Monk/BG/Assassin build.
I hated to lose the Shadowdance HIPS ability, but .. the Assassin does have Improved Invs. I know the Assassin doesn't get Epic Dodge, but he does get those nifty little Death Attacks. (tho don't know how effective it is since I've never played an Assassin type before).
In a *very* loose build I took 5 levels of Monk, then 4 levels of Assassin, then 10 levels of BG and the rest Assassin.
Perhaps I might've been more cost effective to take the Monk, but was basically wondering how much sneak attack damage I could do if I were to sneak up on someone. And it was appreciable (think I was able to take up to Sneak Attack VI).
In the build was wielding 2 Kamas and being DEX based I used Weapon Finesse. In robes was getting 6 attacks with one hand and 2 in the off hand (more with Haste and Flurry of course).
What do you all think? Is it better than my Rogue/BG/SD idea?
Joe C.
Check out this Halfling Ninja by Darkstar: Click Here
Joined: 06 Dec 2003 From: Elizabeth City, NC Profile: Monday, 06 September 2004 02:47PM OK, I was asked to post this so here it goes. I thought of this character while trying to imagine a ninja type character. I have designed him to carry kukris instead of a katana though. Basically, I wanted to play with a stealthy, come out of nowhere, quickly strike, then melt into shadows character. I know there are better "kukri master" type characters out there, and I know I could get more attacks a round (not to mention save a feat) if I went kamas, but I just like the look of kukris. I have tested this character on the Novice to Epic Character Builder, and have to admit, I can't wait to get him in one of my favorite PW's. I decided to go fighter to raise my pre-20 bab (it gets me to +16 for 4 attacks per round), and for access to the weapon specialization feats (so I can actually do a little bit of damage with a dexer). Please let me know if you see any way in which I can improve this character.
Level up in this way: 8 Monk 5 Fighter 7 Shadow Dancer 1 Fighter 18 Shadow Dancer 1 Monk
Beggining Stats: Str-10 Dex-20->32 (10 on levels + 2 with Feats) Con-10 Wis-10 Int-14 Cha-8 *I went 14 Int instead of adding to Wis for extra skill points
On Monk levels- up Discipline, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble On Fighter levels- up Discipline On Shadow Dancer levels- up Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Lore, and Pick Pocket (what's the use of having a halfling shadow dancer if you aren't able to "find" things every once and awhile? ) *on the last Monk level you can do 1 of 2 things, depending on how you would like to play. You can take Spellcraft to 20 to help with saves, or you can max out Parry (hoping, of course, that parry gets fixed). With a parry of 54 (with +11 dex bonus), epic dodge and self conceal 5, you would be very difficult to hit.
Feats- Level 1- Dodge Level 3- Mobility (Still Mind from Monk) Level 5- (Purity of Body from Monk) Level 6- Weapon Finesse (Knockdown, Imp Knockdown from Monk) Level 7- (Wholeness of Body from Monk) Level 9- Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting Level 10- Exotic Weapon Proficiency Level 12- Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization: Kukri Level 14- (Hide In Plain Sight from SD) Level 15- Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge 1 from SD) Level 16- (Shadow Daze, Summon Shadow from SD) Level 17- (Shadow Evade from SD) Level 18- Improved Crit: Kukri (Defensive Roll, UD 2 from SD) Level 20- (Slippery Mind from SD) Level 21- Epic Weapon Focus and Specialization: Kukri Level 24- Epic Dodge (Improved Evasion, UD 3 from SD) Level 27- Great Dexterity 1, Epic Shadow Lord Level 30- Greta Dexterity 2, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline Level 33- Self Conceal 1, Self Conceal 2 Level 36- Self Conceal 3, Self Conceal 4 Level 39- Self Conceal 5, Epic Prowess
Base AC- 30 AB (with 2 normal kukri's)- 39/36/31/26 HP (without reroll)- 259 HP (max)- 200 from SD + 60 from Fighter + 72 from Monk= 332
I maxed out lore due to my low str. Since I can't carry as much, it is nice to be able to ID out in the field; and only carry what I want.
Pros- -Epic Dodge -Self Conceal 5 -Extra Speed from Monk Levels -Epic Shadow Lord (Level 24) -Hide In Plain Site -Very fun character to play -Immune to disease
Cons- -Anything with True Seeing -Lowish HP -Lowish AB (but not too bad considering the classes)
Quote: Posted 09/29/04 08:45:27 (GMT) -- JettaJoe ...I am playing in a world that has DC nerfed...
...was thinking ... Monk/BG/Assassin build....
... Assassin doesn't get Epic Dodge, but he does get those nifty little Death Attacks. (tho don't know how effective it is since I've never played an Assassin type before)....
In a *very* loose build I took 5 levels of Monk, then 4 levels of Assassin, then 10 levels of BG and the rest Assassin.
... but was basically wondering how much sneak attack damage I could do if I were to sneak up on someone. And it was appreciable (think I was able to take up to Sneak Attack VI)....
In the build was wielding 2 Kamas and being DEX based I used Weapon Finesse. In robes was getting 6 attacks with one hand and 2 in the off hand (more with Haste and Flurry of course)....
Okay first of all, I don't know what you mean by "DC is nerfed," but I would imagine that would nerf death attack in turn (which is a fortitude save, I believe). For that reason I would suggest going rogue instead, getting epic dodge along with those nifty monk attacks. I'd go at least 9 monk too, for 30% extra speed and imp. evasion, KD, and IKD for free (meaning you only _need_ 10 rogue). With KD/IKD you can get in more sneak attacks if they land.
Also your class progression up there... pre-epic 5 monk 5 assassin 10 blackguard. You lose 1 ab for no reason. Go 4/6/10 pre-epic to avoid problems like this. (look at the BAB charts in your manual to see where you get your +1 ab and where you don't. With assn/mnk you don't get it at 1, 5, 9... etc.) You'll have 17 instead of 16 BAB.
Sneak attack VI would be 6d6, so a maximum of 6*6=+36 damage, and an average of 3.5*6=+21 damage. But you don't have that. With 25 assassin levels you have Sneak Attack XIII, so 13d6, or +78 max, +45.5 avg. That's pretty nice, but you can get that with rouge 25 as well, and get a ton more skill points in exchange for a nerfed death attack, a couple spells (imp invis being pretty useful, but epic dodge being more useful..) and goofy poison resistance. Plus you get access to special rogue feats. You should find out if death attack would be nerfed on your server or not for sure, because it's a really nice skill, and I believe you'd get a pretty high DC with 25 assassin... I think it's 10+25(asslevels)+2(intmod)=37? That and IKD could be devastating. (i'd go something like 6 monk 4 assn 10 bg, then 5 monk 15 assn). You'd be threatening a ton of hits a round at about +40 damage sneak attack on average, with a high DC chance to stun, crippling strike, and IKD as a backup plan.
Oh and I just realized you get an extra 3d6 sneak from 10 BG. I don't feel like editing everything, but you get the idea.. even better sneaks. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Edited By yrtsns on 09/29/04 21:44
Another suggestion... It sounds like you want a BG build, but if that's not necessarily the case, I would suggest sort of a "holy avenger" type of build... Go either 21rog9mnk10CoT (progression: 8mnk/4rog/8cot pre-epic) or 21assn9mnk10CoT (similar progression). You'd pick up more saves this way,(unless you could get +12 cha from items without losing other important bonuses). I'd suggest at this point completely de-prioritizing charisma, giving you 6 more attribute points to play around with in creation. You'd also get an extra 4 pre-epic feats and 1 epic feat, which is pretty nice. You'd lose 3d6 sneaks, bull's strength, and a few other pretty useless spells. I think the extra 3 saves, 4 pre-epic feats, 1 epic feat, and 6 attribute points to play around with in creation far outweighs any of that, UNLESS of course you can get +12 charisma easily and painlessly with items, without sacrificing anything in return (which is unlikely). _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Edited By yrtsns on 09/29/04 22:10
Thanks for the info, yrtsns.
In my original post, when I said DC was "nerfed", basically it meant that Devastating Critical was not allowed on the server that I play. Overwhelming Critical is the highest one can go. As far as Death Attack by Assassins, I *assume* it is still there and playable -- but don't know for sure since I've never played an Assassin before.
As for the Blackguard, I don't have any *great* desire to play one (though I still think they are kinda neat), but I thought it would be a semi neat way to not only get the BAB necessary for 4 attacks a round pre-epic, but also pick up a few sneak attacks along the way ..
I also thought about taking Rogue and then when qualified, Weaponmaster and then Rogue to finish up (perhaps a level of SD at some point too). It is possible to get enough WeaponMaster levels to get the 4 attacks around, but it sure does eat a lot of feats to do so. But .. I do get the Weapon o' choice thing and extra crit range and such.
Though I think it might be cheaper to take Fighter. It loses the crits but you gain other feats and I think a higher BAB as well.
Still trying to decide between my original Rogue/BG/SD build, and either a Fighter/Rogue/SD or a Rogue/WM/SD sort of build. Come to think of it, that Monk one was pretty nice too..
Decisions, decisions ..
Joe C.
Ah, I see, by DC you meant Dev. Crit... I was thinking about skill DCs, rather than _the_ skill DC. You might really like a monk/assn type of build in that case. All those death attacks threatened in the first round would be really nice. If you went WM you'd make your character more versatile in regular fighting, but just remember those critical bonuses don't apply to sneak attacks. (I think they'd still apply _during_ a sneak attack though, just to the non-sneak damage) _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
