Hi there,

I have a rather specific request for an Arcane archer build. I play on a PW which has a certain amount of restrictions, but also has a couple of nice features. One is for example that a lvl 10 rogue will get the HIPS feat for free (if the requirements are met). Now I want to make an Arcane Archer that has quite a high amount of rogue levels. Some of the restrictions I am working with are that only one prestige class is allowed per character and when multiclassing at least 5 levels of each class must be taken. So for example, I want to make my AA based on the Elf Race and have the rogue, wizzard and AA classes. Now when I start taking wizzard levels I either have to take 5 levels in a row of wizzard, or go 1 wiz, 1 AA, 1 wiz, 1 AA, etc, there cannot be more than one level difference between them until one of them is lvl 5. Now I tried the version where I have 5 lvls of wizzard before lvl 20, and then I end up with only a base AB of 12, I really would like to have that at 16 so I can have the 4 attacks at lvl 20.

So my question now is what the best way of leveling this guy would be, he's currently level 6 pure rogue, and I was thinking that I probably will have to go all the way up to lvl 18 rogue or so before taking a wiz class, but I'm not quite sure what the best strategy would be... and that's what I hope all you experts out there can help me with

any input is welcome!
Quote: Posted 02/07/05 09:48:00 (GMT) -- Karmeus

Hi there,

I have a rather specific request for an Arcane archer build. I play on a PW which has a certain amount of restrictions, but also has a couple of nice features. One is for example that a lvl 10 rogue will get the HIPS feat for free (if the requirements are met). Now I want to make an Arcane Archer that has quite a high amount of rogue levels. Some of the restrictions I am working with are that only one prestige class is allowed per character and when multiclassing at least 5 levels of each class must be taken. So for example, I want to make my AA based on the Elf Race and have the rogue, wizzard and AA classes. Now when I start taking wizzard levels I either have to take 5 levels in a row of wizzard, or go 1 wiz, 1 AA, 1 wiz, 1 AA, etc, there cannot be more than one level difference between them until one of them is lvl 5. Now I tried the version where I have 5 lvls of wizzard before lvl 20, and then I end up with only a base AB of 12, I really would like to have that at 16 so I can have the 4 attacks at lvl 20.

So my question now is what the best way of leveling this guy would be, he's currently level 6 pure rogue, and I was thinking that I probably will have to go all the way up to lvl 18 rogue or so before taking a wiz class, but I'm not quite sure what the best strategy would be... and that's what I hope all you experts out there can help me with

any input is welcome!
Well; for an AA to work you need good base attack and a few feats; so you would likely be best served taking rogue and wiz first (rogue4/wiz6 is not the best; but you have some limitations so you have to work around them). The other benefit of this split, is you lose no bab; and you should get all your feats and base attack requirements in time.
Based on what you're restricted by:
Pre-epic: Rogue4/wiz6/AA10 (I have built on similar lines; it will work but you will have to be careful of feats; I think I had one or two spare feat besides the Finesse [so you can go into backup mode with good rogue-ish daggers or something]). You will end up with a base attack of 16; some basic wiz buffs; and some other bits and bobs useful too. From epic; go 14 AA/6Rogue; you will end up with good-ish sneaks; very good damage potential from the AA levels, and so forth and so forth...
Sorry; that's about the extend of what I thought of, hope it helps..

EDIT: I just re-read your post, you should not have to take 1-1-1's (if your pw states this, take it up with them - it's unnecessarily limiting, and imo such dictation has no place in even the more hardcore RP server). Wizard is favoured for elf; so no worries with xp penalties either..

Edited By Khandahr on 02/07/05 12:12

With his restrictions I don't think 4 rog/6 wiz/10 AA will work... he doesn't take five rogue.

What it sounds like is you'll have to try something like this:
Start 8 rogue (lose 2 bab)
Go 2 wiz (lose 1 bab)
Go 3 AA
Go 2 wiz (lose 1 bab)
Go 2 AA
Go 1 or 2 wiz (lose 1 bab)
Rest AA until 20.
This way they stay within 1 until they're both lv 5.
This gives you 15 bab, which sounds like the highest you're going to be able to manage with those restrictions. Add on rapid shot to make up for lost attacks per round.
If you go 18 rogue 2 wiz, you'll end up with 14 BAB, and perhaps more rogue levels than you wanted.

Now, you said that they have to stay within 1 of eachother until _one_ of them is lv 5, so if that's actually the case, you could do this progression:
8 rog -2 bab
2 wiz -1 bab
3 AA
2 wiz -1 bab
rest AA until 20.
This would give you 16 BAB, meaning you get four attacks per round instead of three.
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Have I mentioned I hate IGMS? Uhm, don't know how the rules on the server work; but he would get those levels in the epics:
Quote: 
From epic; go 14 AA/6Rogue; you will end up with good-ish sneaks; very good damage potential from the AA levels, and so forth and so forth...
Sorry; that's about the extend of what I thought of, hope it helps..
Thus the end character would be:
10Rogue/6Wizard/24ArcaneArcher; fulfilling the 5+ levels per class requirement, and not losing a single bab unecessarily

Edited By Khandahr on 02/07/05 16:39

Both setups sound interesting, and I will first try them out in a test mod, but what I don't quite get is how you can end up with 16 bAB if you have 6 levels of wizzard pre-epic? why would a char with 18 lvls of rogue and 2 lvls of wiz have a lower bAB then one which has 6 lvls of wiz? Is there a certain way of taking the levels that somehow optimizes this? If there is a thread that explains all of this, please point me towards it, I'm quite curious about the optimizing of characters. Base attack is the key problem. Before epic levels; each class progresses in a particular way:
Fighting classes (fighter, Pally, Arcane Archer, etc) progress at 1 attack bonus per level

Support classes (Bard, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Rdd, etc) progress 3 base attack per 4 levels

Mage Classes (Palemaster, Wizard, Sorcerer, not sure if others) progress at 1 attack bonus every two levels. So the breakdown BEFORE epic character level (combined level20):

Rogue 4 = 3 base attack
Wizard6 = 3 base attack
Arcane Archer 10 = 10 Base attack
TOTAL attack bonus = 16; which is just scraping 4 attacks per round

After Epic character level (combined level of 20) all classes progress at 1 base attack per 2 levels; so it does not matter too much, just the feat options change a bit.

Hope that helps a bit...
Quote: Posted 02/07/05 16:57:23 (GMT) -- Karmeus

Both setups sound interesting, and I will first try them out in a test mod, but what I don't quite get is how you can end up with 16 bAB if you have 6 levels of wizzard pre-epic? why would a char with 18 lvls of rogue and 2 lvls of wiz have a lower bAB then one which has 6 lvls of wiz? Is there a certain way of taking the levels that somehow optimizes this? If there is a thread that explains all of this, please point me towards it, I'm quite curious about the optimizing of characters.
To extend this; using the above formula:
first 16 levels of Rogue = 12 [16/4 = 4 then *3 for the 3ab-per-4lvls rule]
Every fifth rogue level gives no ab; so you would get one more ab for rogue 17 and 18.
TOTAL for Rogue levels = 13ab
Add in two Wiz levels = 1 ab

Combined AB for pre-epic (and thus deciding your attacks per round, which do not change after epic character level is acchieved) is 14.

To calculate attacks:
Attack 1: 14 deduct 5; if a number above 0 then another attack)
Attack 2: 9 (deduct 5; if a number above 0 then another attack
Attack 3: 4 (will be negative if deduct 5, so no more attacks)

The progression is a bit different for monks; but thats a different issue altogether Thanks for the explanations, after re-reading them several times I think I now understand them. Unfortunately, the server I play on has recently become very strickt against power-gaming and for each class your character takes you need to take the levels either consecutively 5 in a row or together with another class 1/1, 2/2, etc. until 5 levels in have been reached for both classes. Therefore this character setup will never be able to reach the 16 bAB, but will get stuck at 15 max, quite annoying really. I think I will continue with another setup, which will work in the end quite nicely as well, though I will have to juggle a bit in order to avoid too much xp loss due to conflicting classes.

What I have in mind is the following: (elf)
10 rogue, 9 bard and 21 AA. He'll get the HIPS from the rogue class (though he'll also get it from AA at 10 levels on this server), extra damage from the bard song and the buffs that the Bard class brings along, and nicely added damage from the AA class.

If I get the AB rules above correct I can take about 5/5 rogue/bard and then 10 AA pre-epic to get 17 (or is it 18?) bAB and HIPS at lvl 20.

Any other suggestion about this build? Yeah, Bard would definitely be a better way to go about things. Wizard really didn't give you anything useful.
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Have I mentioned I hate IGMS? No. The 5th Rogue and 5th Bard levels do not join to make 1 attack bonus; it is the same as 4 rogue 6 wiz because the fifth level of a support class is 0 base attack. So; you would end up the same - and when you get more rogue levels for the rogue10 bit; you will experience xp penalties due to the bard not being favoured class. so the 5/5/10 rogue/bard/AA would then have an bAB of 16? It doesn't really matter, as long as I reach the 16 for that extra attack . I'm planning to keep rogue and bard within 1 lvl difference to avoid the xp penalty (though currently the char is at 5 rogue, 1 bard because I wasn't aware of the penalty when I started him out a week ago).
Quote: Posted 02/08/05 16:37:17 (GMT) -- Karmeus

so the 5/5/10 rogue/bard/AA would then have an bAB of 16? It doesn't really matter, as long as I reach the 16 for that extra attack . I'm planning to keep rogue and bard within 1 lvl difference to avoid the xp penalty (though currently the char is at 5 rogue, 1 bard because I wasn't aware of the penalty when I started him out a week ago).
That'll work out fine. And might even have the extra benefits too. Just always keep a tight eye on your feats; that was my main mistake with my first attempt.