Was looking at this the other day, can't seem to come up with the maximum useful builds for:
*Max ac (non-lossy; ie normally dexy can lose chunks if flanked/flat-footed/etc). I assume monk is the only way to go for this?
*Max BAB

I've tried a variation of the paledrake (netting a total ac of around 90 with +5 or less items); still I'm sure this can get higher... though I do not know how.

On BAB... I can't seem to find logically how to push this past 50's; anyone any idea's on this - without wm? Pipedream maybe?

Last, using the guide of minimum bab40; minimum naked ac 45, is there any way to improve on this? I doubt you can do much better than what you have already tried.

And when you say naked is that without spells/songs and such?

Uncanny Dodge should negate loss of AC from being flat-footed/flanked. And you could get a high BAB using AA.

However getting everything into one is probably not doable.

I remember a build called the Pale Archer or something, that might be a good compromise.
Quote: Posted 03/18/05 18:19:20 (GMT) -- MartinJHolm

I doubt you can do much better than what you have already tried.

And when you say naked is that without spells/songs and such?
Quote: 
ac 45 was naked unbuffed; mostly dex. Could push to 49, but damage suffered.
Uncanny Dodge should negate loss of AC from being flat-footed/flanked.
Ahh, did not know that. I thought it was just a small portion it retained. Thanks!
arg! Was hoping to get a better ac mobile ; tho this is a fun build it still lacks in the ac department.. back to the drawing board A build I like a lot is bard 22/rdd 10/cot 8. Your ab will be in the low fifties mundane, and with curse song and regular song you get a 7 ab/ac swing in your favor, so with a +4 or +5 weapon you'll hit over 60 ab. Mundane you'll hit in the high 50s.
The ac isn't going to be as high as the pale drake, but you obviously gain a lot in terms of offense. One more hit per round, more damage, higher AB.
And remember your song last for quite a while (lasing impression), so you can be pretty reliant on it.
Naked ac would be something like:
10 base + 8 tumble + 2 armor skin + 4 rdd + 5 bard song + 2 curse song = 31. Not nearly as high as pale drake of course, but for a strengther that's pretty nice naked AC.
Pop on your armor/shield as well as mage armor and it's up to 43, haste takes it to 47, and +5 items would take it on up to 72. Get a little dex from items (or get lucky with cat's grace) and it's 73, and protection from alignment would make it a cool 75. And of course you have imp invis, too. (remember to take still spell so you can recast in armor if needed).
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Have I mentioned I hate IGMS? You lose a number of ac types from flatfootedness. I'm not entirely sure what they are.. Dodge and dex, and I think a third kind as well.
Uncanny dodge lets you keep your dex bonus to ac.
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Have I mentioned I hate IGMS? Oh and the Pale Archer you mentioned is mine. It doesn't get spectacular AC or AB, and it will lose its dex bonus when flatfooted. Of course, when flatfooted, you're going to get hit, it's just the way it goes.
I think it has 60 naked ac (epic mage armor) and 50 mundane AB. It has pretty nice saves (30ish across the board, naked) and immunity to crits, and when pms get immunity to sneaks, it won't have to worry about flatfootedness nearly as much.
It does get 51 extra skillpoints, which would probably be best used in spot, which will help avoid flatfootedness to some degree (which I believe AA can get).
You might also want to drop off the epic will and take epic skill focus: discipline.

Edit on the above post about the rdd/cot/bard: That was low-fifties (51 to be precise) with +12 strength, so actually it would be 45 mundane, with no song or anything. But the bull's strength would take it to 46 and song would take it to 48, and then curse song would make it 53. Toss in a +5 weapon and it's 58. An additional +10 to strength would make it max out at 63. And remember these really aren't short term buffs at all. With lasting impression your song should last 150 rounds, if the manual is correct. At any rate it's a very long time.
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Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?

Edited By yrtsns on 03/19/05 22:37