I've played three characters with specific defensive capabilities and was wondering what you all would have to say about my results.
High AC: Click Here
Epic Self Concealment: Click Here
Epic Damage Reduction: Click Here
I conducted my test in an area with a large number of heavy hitting opponents. For the high AC guy, it seems that too many opponents mean too many rolled 20's. For the self concealment guy, he went down really really quickly. I was surprised how fast he got dusted.
And the epic damage reduction guy never lost a single HP. I went off and made a sandwich while letting the battle run. Came back and he was just fine.
It would seem, to me at least, that damage reduction is the best method of defense.
Thoughts?
It's hard to make any real conclusion except the obvious one that aginst the opponents you chose the DR guy was the betst.
Against a magic user the DR guy wouldn't necessarily fare as well as the other ones.
Quote: Posted 03/23/05 18:11:32 (GMT) -- Banshe
I've played three characters with specific defensive capabilities and was wondering what you all would have to say about my results.
High AC: Click Here
Epic Self Concealment: Click Here
Epic Damage Reduction: Click Here
I conducted my test in an area with a large number of heavy hitting opponents. For the high AC guy, it seems that too many opponents mean too many rolled 20's. For the self concealment guy, he went down really really quickly. I was surprised how fast he got dusted.
And the epic damage reduction guy never lost a single HP. I went off and made a sandwich while letting the battle run. Came back and he was just fine.
It would seem, to me at least, that damage reduction is the best method of defense.
Thoughts?
You havent stated what sort of equipment you were using. Id expect low or no magic. What was the AC of the ED/SC5 build for example. What was the AB of the attacker/s. How many attackers were there at one time (ED/SC5 is better one on one). DR wins hands down in low/ no magic and against multiple attackers. DR is as good as ED/SC5 in one on one with higher magic (unless the opponent has equal magic in which case the damage is increased).
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Equipment was "none" or "naked" for all three. I wanted it to be a level playing field. I.e. who could manage the best based purely on skills/feats etc.
The AC of the ED/SC5 was the same as yours. I followed your build exactly. As for attackers, three at a time with AB +30 to +40.
So DR is better than ED/SC5, yes? It would seem so. I was also pretty disappointed in the AC route. They consistently did damamge to him (every few real life seconds). Many many rolled 20's.
As for magic, I had noticed on the DR guy that he does get damaged by breath attacks and spells. However, there isn't a dramatic and sudden plunge in hp when fighting a caster it seems. I fought a prismatic dragon who took eons to kill but, I only consumed one heal potion to survive the very long battle (the dragon healed itself up to full 5 or 6 times).
About not using items, I think that this was an important part of the test. Having to use item slots to make up for deficiencies in your charater is a bad thing, I think. So the DR guy would require the fewest number of items to make up for his deficiencies.
It's hard to make any real conclusion except the obvious one that aginst the opponents you chose the DR guy was the betst.
Against a magic user the DR guy wouldn't necessarily fare as well as the other ones.
In the novice to epic character maker, the DR guy outperformed them all (vs. casters/ melee'ers). The "defense test" was my own mod.
Although the casters were the only ones who could damage them, the amount of damage was manageable.
Quote: Posted 03/23/05 18:11:32 (GMT) -- Banshe For the high AC guy, it seems that too many opponents mean too many rolled 20's.
I have seen this happen to my own version of the PaleDrake.. and it sucks piles. Just recently I was swarmed by about 15 mob enemies with apparently (accoring to battle stat) under 40bab - yet got taken down in minutes. In any mob that hits 4+ times a round; natural 20 is just too common.
BUT having said that the character is VERY durable in almost any other area... and constantly outlives the others around him.
Quote: Posted 03/24/05 09:14:43 (GMT) -- Khandahr
Quote: Posted 03/23/05 18:11:32 (GMT) -- Banshe For the high AC guy, it seems that too many opponents mean too many rolled 20's.
I have seen this happen to my own version of the PaleDrake.. and it sucks piles. Just recently I was swarmed by about 15 mob enemies with apparently (accoring to battle stat) under 40bab - yet got taken down in minutes. In any mob that hits 4+ times a round; natural 20 is just too common.
BUT having said that the character is VERY durable in almost any other area... and constantly outlives the others around him.
Could you give an example? And perhaps reasons why he outlives the rest.
I actually have one but I don't put a lot of stock in it: vs. Pit Fiends, their fire was laughable. But this is a very specific thing, I think (immunity to fire).
Quote: Posted 03/24/05 08:45:50 (GMT) -- Banshe
Equipment was "none" or "naked" for all three. I wanted it to be a level playing field. I.e. who could manage the best based purely on skills/feats etc.
Ill show you an example of how level this playing field is. Take 2 fighters one is a finesse fighter. The other a strength based fighter
The DEX Based fighter has an AC of 32 wearing clothes and a tower shield with a dex of 32. He fights with a rapier and does 1d6+6 damage 4 times a round. The STR based counterpart has an AC of 25 wearing full plate and tower shield with a STR of 32. He fights with a bastard sword from 1d10+15 damage 4 times a round.
What incentive is there to play the DEX based fighter since the AC advantage is useless since the ABs are much higher and everyone hits on a roll of 2 regardless. Now switch in +7 items.
The DEX based fighter has an AC of 67. Rapier does 1d6+13 damage 4 times per round. The STR based fighter has an AC of 53. Bastardsword doees 1d10+22 damage , 4 times per round.
Now the dex based fighter only gets hit on a roll of 20. The STR Based gets hit on a roll of 8/13/18/20. Thats quite a difference.
Which is the more level playing field. Neither. But the second example is closer to a real world example since this is with items available in the only Epic expansion we have (HotU)
Which build would survive the longest against a boss mob under these conditions (ie one on one combat with a more powerful adversary and not 3 on 1). Id put my money on the ED/SC5 build (not the archer however since he doesnt use a shield, he needs different tactics altogether)
Quote: The AC of the ED/SC5 was the same as yours. I followed your build exactly. As for attackers, three at a time with AB +30 to +40.
The hardest fights in games tend to be one on one
Quote: So DR is better than ED/SC5, yes? It would seem so. I was also pretty disappointed in the AC route. They consistently did damamge to him (every few real life seconds). Many many rolled 20's.
Under the conditions you tested. However under the conditions you tested the STR based fighter with dev crit would beat both the DR and the ED/SC5 in a matter of a few rounds (Dev crit lands regardless of damage done, so it could be damage=0 , fail save)
Quote: As for magic, I had noticed on the DR guy that he does get damaged by breath attacks and spells. However, there isn't a dramatic and sudden plunge in hp when fighting a caster it seems. I fought a prismatic dragon who took eons to kill but, I only consumed one heal potion to survive the very long battle (the dragon healed itself up to full 5 or 6 times).
Curious to know how you managed to take out a prismatic dragon with only basic items.
Quote: About not using items, I think that this was an important part of the test. Having to use item slots to make up for deficiencies in your charater is a bad thing, I think. So the DR guy would require the fewest number of items to make up for his deficiencies.
Having to use slots to increase your AC is actually assumed by the game otherwise why would you have BASE ACs of around 30 or below with BASE ABs reach 40 and over. To say that you dont use items to cover deficiencies is total rubbish.
Syrath
EDIT btw as has been suggested by myself before I will reiterate that I would never recommend a high DEX build in a low magic world. They just dont work (they might if parry worked as it should). _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Edited By syrath1001 on 03/24/05 10:27
Ok, but in your example, AC was a factor and I'm not sure I find AC to be so worthwhile anymore after my "test". Not to say that AC doesn't play a part but DR seems to have had remarkable results.
"The hardest fights in games tend to be one on one"
How so? With three opponents attacking at once, they have 12 attacks/round or so. Plus you miss out on your dex (or dodge) bonus in some cases vs. multiple opponents. They nail you with sheer volume.
"Under the conditions you tested. However under the conditions you tested the STR based fighter with dev crit would beat both the DR and the ED/SC5 in a matter of a few rounds (Dev crit lands regardless of damage done, so it could be damage=0 , fail save)"
In this test, I wanted to keep it simply focused on pure defense not strong offense being a good defense.
"Curious to know how you managed to take out a prismatic dragon with only basic items."
Me too.
Maybe it was a draco-lich. Either way, it had terrible breath and lots of it.
"To say that you dont use items to cover deficiencies is total rubbish."
Right you do have items to cover deficiencies. But the DR guy seems to have the fewest deficiencies to cover. I.e. instead of having to wear an AC boosting ring (just a random example) to make up for lack of AC, he can use that spot to pump up his Dex, for instance. I'm talking about the number of deficiencies. For the DR guy, it seems that melee combat is not at all deficient. Didn't lose HP against single powerful opponents or multiple opponents. That doesn't mean that he could take damage but immunity to crits probably means its not much of a problem.
With spells he has quite a few things taken care of too: SR, High Saves.
The only thing I could find so far is a lack of elemental damage protection.
Edited By Banshe on 03/24/05 12:39
Quote: Posted 03/24/05 12:37:57 (GMT) -- Banshe How so? With three opponents attacking at once, they have 12 attacks/round or so. Plus you miss out on your dex (or dodge) bonus in some cases vs. multiple opponents. They nail you with sheer volume.
In any module with 3 opponents attacking one player then the encounter is usually balanced IE the opponent is much less powerful than the PC due to the fact there are 3 of them. To have 3 epic level opponents attack an epic level player while they have no equipment is an underbalanced encounter.
The toughest mobs in HotU for example are Vixthra , Big M etc. These fights are done one on one.
Any fight I fought in late HotU with a dex build I did easy enough with just epic dodge. The only trouble I had was with Vixthra and M. It is against these mobs and with the very same items I refer to I gauge the success or failure of all of the builds I have tested. I dont try to do these fights with no items at all. This is my "REAL WORLD" test of a build. Not to test it without items against one group of monsters. Then go on and test it with another build then compare the 2. Inevitably one build does better than another in certain playing fields. I just try and vary the fields a little (and yes I test them naked as well, dex builds usually dont fair so well in a straight up fight without parry working)
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
I just did a test there with a 1000 hp goblin that has +40 AB and does 100 damage per hit and it does 1 attack per round.
Out of the 3 builds only the ED/SC5 build took no damage. The rest took quite a bit of damage.
The test was done with basic non magical equipment.
Was the above test done a level playing field. Not really since it unfairly biased the ED/SC5 (one attacker with 1 attack per round, avoided 100 percent of the time).
In much the same way as your test has multiple creatures attacking disadvantages the ED/SC5 build(what max damage did they have for example, could they even damage the DR build).
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Ok. I have been testing the one-on-one encounters with epic characters in the Novice to Epic Maker Arena choosing lvl 36-40 opponents.
With all three of these builds, they more or less fared ok, I would say (with the DR guy doing best).
The defence test that I used specifically here was from a mod I've played a lot on. Its the lizard camp in Nordock. It spawns 40 or so lizard guys. This area was designed for lvl 20 characters. However, unlike the Novice to Epic mod, here I really noticed the difference between the builds.
There are so many options in character creation that it is hard to tell the difference between builds. This is the first area that I have seen a significant difference in builds.
If you want me to send you the area erf, pm me your email address.
I just did a test there with a 1000 hp goblin that has +40 AB and does 100 damage per hit and it does 1 attack per round.
Out of the 3 builds only the ED/SC5 build took no damage. The rest took quite a bit of damage.
The test was done with basic non magical equipment.
Was the above test done a level playing field. Not really since it unfairly biased the ED/SC5 (one attacker with 1 attack per round, avoided 100 percent of the time).
In much the same way as your test has multiple creatures attacking disadvantages the ED/SC5 build(what max damage did they have for example, could they even damage the DR build).
Syrath
Point taken. So what you are saying is that your guy is better against one opponent with lots of damage.
I don't think they could damage the DR build. It has crit immunity too. I think that is where the advantage is.
So what this has boiled down to then is the ED/SC5 is best vs single powerful opponents. DR is best against multiple.
So I guess that leaves out the "unrepresented" AC guy.
Also, from a different perspective, is the ED/SC5 worse against multiple opponents than the DR guy is against a single opponent or vice versa?
Perhaps that is the question overall when it comes to survivability. Who is more likely to survive both encounters (one v. one/ multiple)?
For it seemed to be the DR guy. The only death was the ED/SC5 guy from the lizards.
This is how I see it.
DR Immunities (sneak/critical etc) Unbeatable by armies of opponents with lower damage. Excells in lower magic worlds
ED/SC5 In medium/higher magic world , almost unbeatable in melee in one on one combat. Has a lot more Generic spell immunity (50 percent of targetted spells fail to land) Weak against AoE attacks Good against elemental damage (rarely lands due to improved evasion and high reflex save).
Neither is better than the other, it all depends on where you place them and the items available.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Banshee - can you please tell me where to find this novice to epic character building mod please? Thanks...
Sure. Its on NWVault.
Do a search for "novice" "character builder" or something like that.
here you go...
I had a closer look at the DR guy I was using. It seems he is far more than just a DR guy.
In his recommended form (risen lord) he has:
50% dam immune for slash and pierce 15/+3 Dam reduct
Plus the DwD dam reduct and the epic feat dam reduct.
So I suppose the test was slightly inaccurate as he wasn't just a DR guy...
Well I'm glad my build did so well against a variety of opponents, but in many itemsets it might be a different story. Elemental damage on weapons will be able to hurt him, and quite often since his ac is pretty low, and in PvP: heal spells will kill him unless nerfed, in which case they'll damage him pretty well. You can also use greater restoration (and maybe lesser) to make him unshift, so three castings and he's suddenly quite powerless. (I'm not sure if this is the case on most servers or not. It was on the one I tested him in.) There are a number of clerical spells that also hurt him a great deal, so, basically, clerics can tear him a new one. I'd say that depending on the itemset, syrath's build is probably going to be hit the least. ED/SCV when combined with adequate ac is phenomenal, especially against a single opponent. You need to be wearing equipment though to get adequate ac. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
here you go...