It seems as if everyone agrees that the sorcerer is the best spellcasting class there is - I'd like someone to explain exactly why.
I made a Druid build and posted it Click Here
My question is why shouldn't this be able to beat the "Exalted Sorcerer"?
Assuming both chars enter the battle with basic gear – the druid with a simple outfit and a longbow, the sorcerer with a full plate/tower shield and a longsword. No pre-buffs or magical items. What would happen?
Waits in anticipation
The sorcerer is the best spellcaster and this is why:
1. The sorcerer has more defensive capabilities. Globes of Invulnerability, Shadow Shield, and the most importantly of all Spell Mantles. The only spells a druid has to stop some spells is death ward and spell resistance. 2. Dispelling is easy for Sorcerers. Spell Breach, Greater Spell Breach, and the grand daddy of them all Mordikens Disjunction. All a druid can do is cast dispel or greater dispel and hope that it will do something which it won't. 3. The offensive capabilities of a sorcerer are vast superior to a Druid. IGMS and Horrid wilting is pretty much all they would need to take out a Druid.
Druids spells are best at improving shapes that they shift into. They are good for buffing purposes. The same can be said about a Cleric. They are mostly good for buffing up themselves for physical attacks whether it be melee or ranged.
Now it comes down to Wizard vs. Sorcerer and the Sorcerer wins because of adaptability. Wizards have to memorize spells before hand. So say they have 4 Greater spell mantles and 4 IGMS. The Sorcerer has 8 spells also but they can cast any combination of the two spells as they see fit to the situation. If 5 spell mantles are needed to be cast the wizard is out of luck and starts taking damage. The sorcerer on the other hand can cast 5 mantles.
Also combining sorcerer with 1 class lvl of paladin makes it not so easy to Dev Crit. A wizard would have to take a few fortitude feats to accomplish the same effect.
That's basically it in a nutshell. There are surely more reasons but I think I pointed out the basics.
well.. I'd say the better spell caster (as in one who casts spells) is the wizard but yes sorceror is the best killing machine caster.
-DaMouse
Comes down to how you play, really. A sorcerer is a Spamhaus of damage. My Sorcerer, at lvl26, could throw over 30 differently metamagic'd IGMS's; a LOT of icestorms; and STILL had a few casts left over on all the levels to rebuff. OR; change tack mid-fight to cast a dozen timestops while flaying the crud out of the mob ahead. BUT, anything requiring a save is a problem, since A) CHA is not a bonus feat for sorcerer; B) Sorcerer's get a LOT less feats than wizards. A wizard, on the other hand, tends to play the 'lose dc check' game; and can prepare for any situation on hand. Not only that, INT is a bonus feat for Wiz; and a well-planned build can actually include epic focus in two or more schools (meaning you gain +6 to the dc for BOTH schools).
I'm well aware that a couple maximized IGMS can kill a lot of things, but the sorcerer knows a pretty limited amount of spells.
Quote: 1. The sorcerer has more defensive capabilities. Globes of Invulnerability, Shadow Shield, and the most importantly of all Spell Mantles. The only spells a druid has to stop some spells is death ward and spell resistance. 2. Dispelling is easy for Sorcerers. Spell Breach, Greater Spell Breach, and the grand daddy of them all Mordikens Disjunction. All a druid can do is cast dispel or greater dispel and hope that it will do something which it won't. 3. The offensive capabilities of a sorcerer are vast superior to a Druid. IGMS and Horrid wilting is pretty much all they would need to take out a Druid.
Sure but you have pretty few known spells at higher levels , you cannot get all those AND the offensive spells. While I agree on IGMS I must say that the Druid has at least as powerful spells that the Sorcerer don't have like Slay Living, Drown, Harm are all almost instant death if you fail your fortitude save.
And while the Druid don't have the "offensive" shields it you can do a lot of damage by just standing there and then can cast area of effect spells like Creeping Doom (no SR or save) Stonehold and Storm of Vengeance and then cast an empowered Fire Storm.
In my opinion the spell resistance spell is as good as the mantles, you need a Mord. Disjunction to dispell it.
Finally the Druid can just shift into a dragon and kick the sorcerers ***, LOL (joke).
Edited By MartinJHolm on 03/25/05 11:13
Quote: Posted 03/25/05 08:51:35 (GMT) -- Khandahr
Comes down to how you play, really. A sorcerer is a Spamhaus of damage. My Sorcerer, at lvl26, could throw over 30 differently metamagic'd IGMS's; a LOT of icestorms; and STILL had a few casts left over on all the levels to rebuff. OR; change tack mid-fight to cast a dozen timestops while flaying the crud out of the mob ahead. BUT, anything requiring a save is a problem, since A) CHA is not a bonus feat for sorcerer; B) Sorcerer's get a LOT less feats than wizards. A wizard, on the other hand, tends to play the 'lose dc check' game; and can prepare for any situation on hand. Not only that, INT is a bonus feat for Wiz; and a well-planned build can actually include epic focus in two or more schools (meaning you gain +6 to the dc for BOTH schools).
I just made a test sorceror and at level 23 my bonus feat included the almighty "Great Charisma" so I dunno where you got that idea matey >_<.
And my wizards fire just about the same amount of IGMS as any sorceror out there when it comes to the shape of a battle. Wizards get a grand total of 4 more feats yes, this is highly helpful in DCs and such but not to the extent you can just ram it down a sorcs throat >_<
And my wizards fire just about the same amount of IGMS as any sorceror out there when it comes to the shape of a battle. Wizards get a grand total of 4 more feats yes, this is highly helpful in DCs and such but not to the extent you can just ram it down a sorcs throat >_<
-DaMouse
I highly doubt that. A Wizard with the same amount of INT as a Sorcerer's CHA will have exactly 2 less casts per level [wiz base slots = 4 per level at lvl20; sorcerer base casts = 6 at lvl20]. That is approximately 1/3rd more. Extend that a bit, and make them naked (fair that way, yes?). Say they have 30 INT / 30 CHA [as per their native stat]. Sorcerer bonus _casts_: 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 Wiz bonus slots 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 Assuming metamagic used for extra casts in higher levels. You mean to say the wizard with 6 lvl 6 slots; 5 lvl7+ slots can cast more IGMS than a equivilent-stat sorcerer with 8 lvl6 casts; 7 lvl7+ casts? Hmm... ok; my math must be bad. I count a difference of 8 casts [for an avg dmg of around 1600 hp or so].. if the wizard hampers themself and maxes on one spell for all those levels with metamagic castings. However; a sorcer can change tack *click* like that. A wiz must find somewhere safe to rest, re-organise spells; rest. Then and only then can they change tack. Or, sure mix the slots - as normal wiz does - and have less of each per rest, nothing wrong with that. The equation makes no sense then though.
*CHA bonus feat* Seems this was fixed recently:
Quote: Posted 03/20/05 00:16:27 (GMT) by Mortiooze
It used to not be. Also, this was already answered in your last post on the subject. See the link right above the first post in any thread? Right in the middle? Next time you make a new topic, click on that.
However; it still stands that with less epic&pre-epic feats, a sorcerer is much more a spam-killer than a dc spellcaster.
Edited By Khandahr on 03/25/05 15:00
A sorcerer should beat a wizard any day of the week hands down if you know what you are doing. And as far as druids having just as powerful spells as sorcerer is crap. Every single spell a druid can cast at a sorcerer can be stopped by a mantle. A druid can do nothing to stop say IGMS or Horrid Wilting. Go to any decent server and most pvp players that use casters use sorcerers.
The only thing wizards are good for is PvM or they are really good if you are going to make a sneaker caster. Since they get a whole lot more skill points you can make a pretty effective wizard/rogue/sd with an impressive hide/ms.
Snipped quote:
And as far as druids having just as powerful spells as sorcerer is crap. Every single spell a druid can cast at a sorcerer can be stopped by a mantle. A druid can do nothing to stop say IGMS or Horrid Wilting. Go to any decent server and most pvp players that use casters use sorcerers.
Keeping in mind that I don't PvP at all, is the abundance of uber-sorc PvP'ers due more to the mimicking of the Exalted Sorceress and less to the true effectiveness of the class? ie has anyone created a good druid PvP build and demonstrated it's effectiveness?
That'd be an interesting challenge methinks.... _________________ Check out the Epic Character Builders Guild Click Here Test your new builds in this mod: Click Here
Quote: Posted 03/25/05 16:00:30 (GMT) -- highlife262626 Every single spell a druid can cast at a sorcerer can be stopped by a mantle. A druid can do nothing to stop say IGMS or Horrid Wilting.
Mantles doesn't last forever.
Ever Heard of Spell resistance?
Quote: Posted 03/25/05 16:00:30 (GMT) -- highlife262626 A druid can do nothing to stop say IGMS or Horrid Wilting.
Yes, they can... if they have shifter class and Outsider Shape feat. By shifting into Rakshasa, they will have immunity to level 8 spells and below. Both of those two spells are equal and below level 8. And in that shape, you get unlimited ice storms, dispell, and mestil's acid breath. You can get empowered ice storms if you have taken that feat as well.
In addition, the sorcerors can't beat them fast enough before they get killed.
Anuis _________________ - Epic Character Builders Guild
- Life is but a dream...
- I know more than I am letting on...
-I think, Therefore I am.
Edited By Anuis on 03/26/05 03:18
thanks for the input so far.
If it wasn't for IGMS there would be no doubt in my mind that Divine spellcasters are better.
It would nice to actually have a server to test builds against each other (on some agreed terms).
Quote: Posted 03/25/05 16:00:30 (GMT) -- highlife262626 Every single spell a druid can cast at a sorcerer can be stopped by a mantle. A druid can do nothing to stop say IGMS or Horrid Wilting.
Mantles doesn't last forever.
Ever Heard of Spell resistance?
Ever heard of Mords?
And as far as comparing a Druid to a Sorc I was just speaking simply that. No other classes involved. That's why I said earlier that druids are only good for other classes they take and the shapes that they can shift into.
(Btw I hate sorcs!!!)
Yeah.. there is a BIG argument with IGMS.. are you really a better spell caster or can you just spam IGMS?
Yes, again what level 9 spells do you pick, you can have only three!!
Quote: Posted 03/26/05 04:54:02 (GMT) -- highlife262626 And as far as comparing a Druid to a Sorc I was just speaking simply that. No other classes involved. That's why I said earlier that druids are only good for other classes they take and the shapes that they can shift into.
(Btw I hate sorcs!!!)
Druids can shift into Dragon Shape without taking any other classes. And saying they are not good for anything but shifting into another size is stupid (sorry if that rude, but I don't know how else to put it).
I'm SO in love with this spell.. hehe
- Creeping Doom - Caster Level(s): Druid 7, Cleric 7 (with Plant Domain) Innate Level: 7 School: Conjuration Descriptor(s): None Component(s): Verbal, Somatic Range: Medium Area of Effect/Target: Large Duration: 1 round per level Additional Counter Spells: None Save: None Spell Resistance: No Description: The caster summons a mass of biting and stinging insects which cause 1d6 points of damage. For every subsequent round that a creature remains within the area of effect, the damage is increased by an increment of 1d6 (i.e. 1d6 for the first round, 2d6 for the second round, 4d6 for the third, 7d6 for the fourth, and so on). The spell deal damage until its duration expires or it deals 1,000 points of damage.
Edited By MartinJHolm on 03/26/05 05:21
If a lvl 40 Druid is so good how come you don't see more of them. All I'm saying is that in a spell battle a sorcerer will beat a druid.
Also creeping doom is good in theory. All they have to do is leave the area or put up epic warding. It's better against melees that have to go into the area in order to attack you.
If a lvl 40 Druid is so good how come you don't see more of them. All I'm saying is that in a spell battle a sorcerer will beat a druid.
Quote: Spells only, perhaps. But a druid is not an offensive spellcaster only...
Also creeping doom is good in theory. All they have to do is leave the area or put up epic warding. It's better against melees that have to go into the area in order to attack you.
You've never been hit by this in pvp have you?
if the server has tweaked true seeing, then the wizard is the best spellcaster. It is easy to make a good 38wiz/1ranger/1monk, which has insane hide and max DC on a FoD. 1 spell is enough with such a build. using SD is even....more devastating..!
Just my two cents: everyone acts like sorcerers don't get enough spell options, but really, since 80% of the spells are crap, it shouldn't be an issue. I generally find myself with two options for the last spell slot at any given level: crap spell I'll never use 1 and crap spell I'll never use 2. The good stuff's spread out pretty well. You can get your buffs at lower levels, add in a few direct damage spells in the mid-levels, and top it off with all the good high level spells, and still have some room left for a few fun spells. There really aren't that many good higher level spells, after all. Sure they sound nice, but if you know what's effective and what isn't, you suddenly find yourself with all the spells you'll ever need. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
I agree with that last post. Most spells are crap. If you know what you are doing a Sorcerer can get all the spells it needs.
And yes I have been hit with creeping doom in pvp. All you do is dispel the area. Actually you don't even have to do that. You will kill the Druid long before creeping doom does enough damage to even have an effect. Trying to kill someone with creeping doom is like trying to kill someone with storm of vengence.
And spell resistance is only good against people that don't know what they are doing. My shifter which only has 29 lvls of druid can get through the spell resistance of a lvl 38 druid or lvl 38 cleric because I took all the spell penetration feats. A lvl 38 sorc would have no problem whatsoever beating that sr. I say 38 lvls because most people combine those classes with say 1 monk/1 rouge.
I can vouch for that. I like a 29 sorc/10 pm/1 pali (or if you dont wanna change alignments: 28 sorc/10 pm/2 bg) with epic spell penetration feats and that's enough to penetrate all but the really goofy monks that gimp themselves out with SR feats, and in that case, who cares? _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Trying to kill someone with creeping doom is like trying to kill someone with storm of vengence.
Umm. As someone who has been caught in SoV before, I can tell you that it can be quite deadly if you get dazed. If that happens, then you're not killing the druid anytime soon.
Also, in my PvM experiences, SoV was unquestionably the most lethal spell against large groups of semi-powerful enemies. The "dazing" part makes all the difference...
I never said spell resistance would work against everything, but with a resistance of (in my case) 50, an average of 30% of the spells will be resisted.
And again my point was the sorcerer vs. druid without items and no pre-buffs - I'd still doubt the sorcerer would win.
The spell clarity takes care of any dazing effects that SoV can cause and or that matter most servers have items that give mind immunity.
Also you must be crazy if you think a naked druid can beat a naked sorc. I have never in my life seen a battle casting druid and there are reasons for that. They just simply can't cut it. You need to build a lvl 40 druid and take on a lvl 40 sorc and the sorc will completly destroy the druid. Of course make sure you battle PvP because AI is for crap.
Clarity lasts ONE turn, good luck on knowing when to cast it!
I still only see boasting and a lot of crap here, why don't any or the Sorcerer lovers make some serious comments.
I never said spell resistance would work against everything, but with a resistance of (in my case) 50, an average of 30% of the spells will be resisted.
And again my point was the sorcerer vs. druid without items and no pre-buffs - I'd still doubt the sorcerer would win.
You're prolly up against folks who don't know how to play arcane casters; or AI. Unless circumstances dictate opposite, standard battle tactics for sorcerers leans toward: 1) Get rid of opponents buffs. Includes lowering SR. 2) Immobilise opponent. 3) Kill opponent.
Out of those, only 3 is the time consumer. And only because there may be some stray buffs left over. With autoquicken or even haste, a mage would be able to do 1) and 2) in one round; with standard buffs (lesser mind blank; spellmantle [40 rounds]; epic warding [40 rounds/2k hp], the list goes on), you'd be outta your element fairly quick in a spellfight. A lvl40 well-built (heck even moderately built) sorc can push right through your spell resistance of 50 fairly quick, btw, by simple virtue of epic spell penetration and breach or Mord's.
If you try melee; well you could find yourself dead in under 5 rounds if the sorc gets half a breath, while not even scratching the sorc. Warding, three damage shields - those alone will cost you ~80hp per hit.
Edited By Khandahr on 03/29/05 14:23
I'm not saying anything of that is wrong but still it seems like you would consider the druid just standing there waiting to die, you don't think he would come up with something as well.
I'm not saying anything of that is wrong but still it seems like you would consider the druid just standing there waiting to die, you don't think he would come up with something as well.
Yup; this would be the reason for buffing out with epic warding; and damage shields. As I said; there are several tactics; primary is to stop the opponent moving - which a sorcerer (and to a lesser extent, wizard) is primarily good at, above all other casters (having a knockdown-like bigby that holds you down for 40 rounds _might_ halt you a little, no?). A sorcerer is a little better at this since they can change tack mid-battle - so no prep is necessary at all, so long as the caster knows what they are doing.
All true, however I would still say if the druid could survive for a short while he would eventually win - in most cases however a quick mord.disj. and a couple of IGMS would probably kill him - still I'd like to test it.
Theoretically, you could test it here.
Lots of folks have stated "how" the sorc would win.
Perhaps you could explain how the druid would counter the sorc's attacks and kill the sorc.
Quote: Posted 03/28/05 04:12:39 (GMT) -- yrtsns
I can vouch for that. I like a 29 sorc/10 pm/1 pali (or if you dont wanna change alignments: 28 sorc/10 pm/2 bg) with epic spell penetration feats and that's enough to penetrate all but the really goofy monks that gimp themselves out with SR feats, and in that case, who cares?
When you throw in Palemaster though you change things again in the Wizard's favor. The PM levels do gain you spell slots as a Wizard. I don't believe they do for a Sorcerer. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I like the Wiz29/PM10/Bard1 actually. Go as a dwarf and you can get your hp up to withstand more damage than a typical mage.
I'm not saying the Wiz is better now necessarily, but with PM levels the Wiz benefits much more.
Edited By GoVols on 03/29/05 17:26
Quote: Posted 03/29/05 16:16:52 (GMT) -- Banshe
Theoretically, you could test it here.
Lots of folks have stated "how" the sorc would win.
Perhaps you could explain how the druid would counter the sorc's attacks and kill the sorc.
I couldn't say exactly since it would depend what the sorcerer did.
But my point is just that people say, well my sorc does this and that and don't expect the druid to anything in return.
But people are welcome to describe what happens the first few rounds. I'll think about that myself as well.
This is with my build against the "exalted sorcerer" not any other build.
My druid wins the initiative roll
@GoVols Unfortunatly PM levels does not add to caster levels, you do gain the spells but the DC doesn't increase as it should.
@yrtsns With your 28 sorcerer levels and all the penetration feats you would not be able to harm anyone with a SR > 55 so a monk with all the imp. SR feats would bot be affected.
And as far as druids having just as powerful spells as sorcerer is crap. Every single spell a druid can cast at a sorcerer can be stopped by a mantle. A druid can do nothing to stop say IGMS or Horrid Wilting. Go to any decent server and most pvp players that use casters use sorcerers.
Keeping in mind that I don't PvP at all, is the abundance of uber-sorc PvP'ers due more to the mimicking of the Exalted Sorceress and less to the true effectiveness of the class? ie has anyone created a good druid PvP build and demonstrated it's effectiveness?
That'd be an interesting challenge methinks....
Both druids and wizards have been mentioned here earlier. It surprises me that this Click Here druid/wizard build hasn't been mentioned yet. At least it used to be a strong and popular PvP build.
@GoVols Unfortunatly PM levels does not add to caster levels, you do gain the spells but the DC doesn't increase as it should.
@yrtsns With your 28 sorcerer levels and all the penetration feats you would not be able to harm anyone with a SR > 55 so a monk with all the imp. SR feats would bot be affected.
Yes, I said the Wizard gains spell slots. I did not say caster levels. What I was saying was I don't believe the Sorcerer even gains spell slots from PM levels though.
Well...druid/wizard or any other mixed caster class used to be popular before the 1.65 or 1.64 patch (one of them anyway), in which spell penetration was changed to run off caster level not character level as it had been prior to this.
That essentially meant that a near pure class caster (i.e Sorc 38 paladin 1 monk 1) became the stronges type of pvp build, because the spell penetration was that of a high level caster. Wheras druid 14 wizard 24 monk 2 for example would now only be casting wizard spells with the penetration of a lv 24 wizard and druid spells as a lv 14 druid, before the fix was made that wizard/druid would be casting all the spells as a lv 40 caster.
Hope that makes sense.
I see your point on spell penetration. Dragon Kin is not as strong a caster as a lvl 40 mage. But it has a strong melee attack, good buffs, lots of hitpoints, dragon breath, epic spells and 2 or 3 companions. It can use different tactics against fighters and mages. It will survive some rounds of maxed IGMS.
It's not a pure caster, but a strong PvP opponent.
Indeed and Dragons Breath is pretty strong against most enemies.
Dragons breat is easily countered by 2 words IMO: "improved evasion".
Whatever... I don't think the Sorcerer has that feat
Nah...a sorc dosen't...but a sorc 31 monk 9 would, as would a sorc 30 paladin 1 monk 9.
and how is that's relevant to anything
And with sorc saves just 1 monk for evasion works fairly well too
-DaMouse
Evasion will only help to halve the damage so it could still be pretty high ~ 50 elemental damage.
If they fail they take full if not they take none on standard Evasion I thought?
-DaMouse
you're right
I rule!
-DaMouse
Quote: Posted 03/25/05 11:09:50 (GMT) -- MartinJHolm Finally the Druid can just shift into a dragon and kick the sorcerers ***, LOL (joke).
No, man. That's no joke
But, we all know Shifters are the man.
Edited By De'Sade on 04/03/05 04:10
everyone seams to have fergotten the 2 most important abilities of the druid. summons wich take a LOT off the dmg done by those IGMS couse the missiles split between all 3 of them (including familiar here) and the best of all - druids can heal. you can throw as much dmg spells as you want but he can heal himself and even the summons so it makes you kinda dumblooking while you cast spells. _________________ Yours truly
Nurse Carla Vallaya Gotrek Gurnison Isha Aventia player
Summons die fast, and you can't heal fast enough. _________________ Have I mentioned I hate IGMS?
Banishment..
Quote: The caster is able to cause all summoned creatures, familiars, animal companions, and Outsiders in the area of effect to be destroyed. A number of creatures equal to twice the caster's level in HD can be banished.
Don't forget the cheapest sorc/wizard tactic, black blade of disaster + sanctuary.
Easy solution...
1) Time Stop 2) 2 Maximized IGMS (12x20 dmg) x 2 = 480 3) Laugh
Alternative to the more prepared Druid
1) Empowered Spellmantle 2) Mords or Any Bigby 3) Just about any way you want to torture him after that, repeat Mords when needed (you get like 6-8)
Biggest point I'd like to make, Mords destroys...
Druids have nothing that can really dispel, past lvl 26 Sorcs can't really be touched by Druids cause they use Spellmantle/Emp. Spellmantle at will.
Did I miss anything?
Huh, haven't seen this topic before...
I suppose you're too extreme into considering one overall better than another, an unprepared Sorcerer can die at a single Finger of Death by a Druid or get stunned for life by Storm of Vengeance, has worked several times, but so does a Druid intantly die against Sorcerer with Wail of Banshee and needless to say Time Stop rules for any PvP purposes, that gives a great edge for Sorcerer/Wizard.
Both classes have tricks at any rate, Druid summons are indeed bothersome, the Animal Companion is much stronger than the Familiar, Druid have some good spells tough Greater Spell Mantle is regularly enough as a Sorcerer to defend. Sorcerers have very good damage elements with Isaac's Greater Missile Storm or Horrid Wilting which deals magic damage, Sorcerers are better against melees when they use Elemental Shield + Mestil's Acid Sheath + Epic Warding.
Sorcerer vs Wizard is hard to say which is better, as in a pure build a Sorcerer would be better since it can cast any spell on its spell list, when multiclassing the CHA comes handy with Paladin and Blackguard saves but the Wizard gets handy for skills or when using dwarves (CHA penalty).
Cleric also makes strong casters you know... I often use Harm, Implosion and Storm of Vengeance, kills quite good.
Sometimes it's as simple as the one who casts the first spell wins, they all have at least one devastating spell that can make the whole battle, just check they've all got an instant kill necromancy spell, this may not apply to a pre-buffed battle, of course.
I suppose you're too extreme into considering one overall better than another, an unprepared Sorcerer can die at a single Finger of Death by a Druid or get stunned for life by Storm of Vengeance, has worked several times, but so does a Druid intantly die against Sorcerer with Wail of Banshee and needless to say Time Stop rules for any PvP purposes, that gives a great edge for Sorcerer/Wizard.
I'd say it's a fairly sad Sorc who gets killed or stunned instantly by a quick Druid's first spell. Any Sorc worth his salt has at least one level of Paladin or BG for the save bonus, plus at least 8 from Spellcraft. No druid can ever get their spell DC higher than 45 on a level 9 spell (like Storm of Vengeance). A similarly buffed/geared Exalted Sorceress has a reflex save vs. spells of 42, I believe. Hardly a permastun, even if you get unlucky the first round
As for Finger of Death, even ignoring the saving throw issue, what Sorc goes around without Shadow Shield (which cannot be dispelled by a Druid) up?
I really can't envision any fight in which a caster Druid could beat a caster Sorc of equal level, except maybe a prepared Druid jumping a Sorc while he was resting, and getting off a quick death spell or disabler, and then the Sorc rolling a 1 on the save.
Now, a shifter or spellsword Druid is a different story, but this thread seems to be about casters.
Quote: Posted 04/24/07 04:12 (GMT) -- Nimueh_Leafbow Now, a shifter or spellsword Druid is a different story, but this thread seems to be about casters.
I suppose you're too extreme into considering one overall better than another, an unprepared Sorcerer can die at a single Finger of Death by a Druid or get stunned for life by Storm of Vengeance, has worked several times, but so does a Druid intantly die against Sorcerer with Wail of Banshee and needless to say Time Stop rules for any PvP purposes, that gives a great edge for Sorcerer/Wizard.
I'd say it's a fairly sad Sorc who gets killed or stunned instantly by a quick Druid's first spell. Any Sorc worth his salt has at least one level of Paladin or BG for the save bonus, plus at least 8 from Spellcraft. No druid can ever get their spell DC higher than 45 on a level 9 spell (like Storm of Vengeance). A similarly buffed/geared Exalted Sorceress has a reflex save vs. spells of 42, I believe. Hardly a permastun, even if you get unlucky the first round
As for Finger of Death, even ignoring the saving throw issue, what Sorc goes around without Shadow Shield (which cannot be dispelled by a Druid) up?
I really can't envision any fight in which a caster Druid could beat a caster Sorc of equal level, except maybe a prepared Druid jumping a Sorc while he was resting, and getting off a quick death spell or disabler, and then the Sorc rolling a 1 on the save.
Now, a shifter or spellsword Druid is a different story, but this thread seems to be about casters.
In real time and in the sense of only caster vs caster I'd bet for the sorcerer, true, but I meant it doesn't works every time as a Sorcerer will always beat a Druid and period, Druids are powerful as well, or have you never killed a sorcerer with a Druid? hell it can be done and it has been done. Exhalted Sorcerer saves aren't completely unbreachable, but you could make a Sorcerer/Paladin/Blackguard as my Graced Sorcerer and then they are
Obviously no class is unbeatable.
The point of the conversation was why sorcerer is the best class and its simple.
1.) In battle, spell versitility. 2.) Extremely high amount of spells. 3.) Ability to use metamagics at will.
Wizards lack all three of these, as do druids, as do clerics.
If you count first spellfire then any class can win cause they all have a decent Your Dead, HAHA spell.
When prepared, Sorcerers are almost godlike in epic stages if you do a straightbuild - unless the target has Spell Immunity then your screwed.
I actually prefer Wizards over Sorcerer most of the time, even though Sorcerer has a bit of more spells and is great for multiclassing paladins/Blackguards Wizard get bonus feats on pre-epic levels, which is also very useful when multiclassing, or simply put, to get more spell focuses... the versatility is good but not as useful as it sounds, it was said earlier on this topic that many spells per level end useless, so Sorcerer isn't missing amount of spells but also Wizard isn't missing slots for what is needed, in a real PvP neither the Sorcerer nor the Wizard will end their spells against each other, they will both kill rather fast.
I agree with Thax. And an Illusionist wizard is only slightly behind a sorc in number of castings. Not that it matters, number of castings is rarely decisive. The luckiest or best will win in one on one, but in party play a wizard is more fun to me. That was not the issue in this thread however.
Anyhow, Mithradates arcane trebuchet is a very good wizard-build. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
The sorcerer is the best spellcaster and this is why:
Nah...a sorc dosen't...but a sorc 31 monk 9 would, as would a sorc 30 paladin 1 monk 9.
and how is that's relevant to anything 
And with sorc saves just 1 monk for evasion works fairly well too
Obviously no class is unbeatable.