I have been scouring these pages for days now, having attempted a melee spellcaster myself I am now looking for the best melee spellcaster build that has been made... I think the sneaky wizard of the woods is pretty good (Wizard 21 / Shadowdancer 10 / Ranger 9), but I am not so sure the sneaky part is so neccessary, couldn't the SD levels be better used if the sneaky part is not needed?? Most builds seem to use 3 classes, would a simple ranger or bard or fighter mixed with wiz or sorc be a good melee spellcaster?? What do you guys all think??
Well, not to toot my own horn, but I've been having a lot of fun playing my Arcane Blade of Torm through the OC so far. You might want to check it out.
Steve
Very nice... one question... could the CoT levels be swapped for basic fighter levels? I realise some of the saves would be lost but I don't have the expansion for CoT only the SoU expansion...
Edited By hads78 on 08/20/05 22:08
First thing: GET HOTU!!!
Steve's build looks good, but, imho, the best melee caster (i am assuming arcane, cuz everyone knows clerics rule ) is fighter/weapon master/wizard, with at least 7 wm lvls. Why? YOu get the multi crit range AND the extended crit range (a scrim would have 13-20 crit range without keen, if my math is correct). I have a ftr/wm/wiz with a 11-20 crit range with a bsword at lv 30. Unfortunately, he is gone forever (pw crashed.. we will just say that). There is somethin so sexy and so wrong with a dudette in full plate with a big sword hittin for alot of damage (str build) while protected by buffs and a lowly epic warding... sigh. Oh how i miss Thuro
If you dont have the hotu expansion, i am assuming you are looking only for 20 lvl character. In that case you would want something like 16 min lvls in caster (sorc or wiz) then take a max of 4 lvls in meleeist. Here are some thought stimulators: pal for imm to fear and if you go sorc, for amazin saves: ftr for wpn spec (more damage) and feats!: black guard.. imho you must sacrifice feats (pwr att +cl) to get it, and you would take it late in life. Ranger... a second animal, but with only 4 lvls, it wouldnt be that tough. And thats really all you have.
If I were to play one, pal2/sorc 18 would be the best option (heavy into casting). Take still spell so you can cast in armor. Take pal2 first then rest as sorc.
Just ideas. Hope they help
Edited By avado on 08/20/05 23:48
Quote: Posted 08/20/05 22:07:54 (GMT) -- hads78
Very nice... one question... could the CoT levels be swapped for basic fighter levels? I realise some of the saves would be lost but I don't have the expansion for CoT only the SoU expansion...
Yes. The saves will be considerably lower of coutse, but otherwise, you wouldn't have to chance anything around. You could also take some more fighter level s earlier if you wanted to, since you aren't holding off for CoT.
The fighter/wizard/WM is a nice one as well. The reason I didn't go that route was because of the number of feats needed to pick up weapon master, on top of the number of feats I already needed for the two-bladed sword route I wanted. I love the TBS, since you can have all the benefits of dual-wielding (the extra attacks at higher ABs help a lot with this build) while still only having one weapon. Plus, I wanted the extra feats even beyond that. But if you aren't going for dual wielding exotic weapons, then the WM works great (unless you don't have HoTU, lol).
But if it's a level 20 build...hrm. That's honestly a lot harder. You could just take the first 20 levels of my build, but you'd probably be better off going either heavy caster (like what avado just mentioned) or pure meleeist using casting for buffs only (sort of like my build, only pumping STR more than INT, just leaving INT at the minimum you need). But honestly, most wizard/fighter types really come into their own in epic. Although mine does fine in the OC at least...okies, I'm rambling now. Hope something in that was at least a little helpful.
Steve
Sorry if this is a hijaack but I think it is relevant.
Steve,
Could you comment on a couple of questions: 1) What if you swapped 6 COT for fighter and 2 BG? You'd lose 1 feat and 4 save, but pick up divine ch saves of at least 1 assuming only maxed splender - more with items. But you would also gain taunt as a class skill to help the ab?
2) Similiar idea but 1 level of bard for a (crappy but better than nothing) song and taunt and UMD as skills?
Thanks,
UK
Quote: 1) What if you swapped 6 COT for fighter and 2 BG? You'd lose 1 feat and 4 save, but pick up divine ch saves of at least 1 assuming only maxed splender - more with items. But you would also gain taunt as a class skill to help the ab?
2) Similiar idea but 1 level of bard for a (crappy but better than nothing) song and taunt and UMD as skills?
I hope im not stealin steve's thunder but: 1) 6 cot lvls gives you a feat on 2, 4 and on 6.. black guard gives NO bonus feat, and you get 1 universal save for 2 lvs of cot. The choice of bg is ONLY valid IF you are a sorc (for the charisma) AND if you are evil. Is it the best option? NO. Taking 2 lvls of bg is, imho, giving up alot more than 2 lvs of paladin (immune to fear and the same charisma bonus to saves), and you could take taunt aswell.
2) Taking bard is, well, not really fitting with the concept of a melee caster. Let me explain: 1 bard lvl will give you no significant ab bonus (as you mentiond) and the skills could better be done with rogue (plus you get d6 of sneak damage). If you are to go bard then mix it with a wizard/ftr.. 15/4/1 type build, taking bard at the end. You need the int from a wiz build (which would be lacking in a sorc build) to gain the skills.
But keep in mind, the build was requested for sou only expansion, lv 20 limit. Diluting the 20 lvls you are given, imho, you must get a huge upside for sacrificing 2 caster lvls for another class. In this respect, paladin is really the only class that gives a large return for such a small investment. Hence, my recommendation (bootlegged originally from the sou strat guide ) for sorc18/pal2 for a caster/melee build.
Hope that helps. Peace
As stated above, you really should get HoTU. Once you do you can also have a look at the Buff Disciple. It's more of a powerbuild than the Srcane blade of Torm (Steve himself stated "my fun over powergaming" I believe), getting most of the sorcerer levels after 20 to preserve BAB thus managing six attacks dual-wielding while still getting epic warding and 10 RDD.
Edited By pulse cap on 08/26/05 05:48
Quote: Posted 08/26/05 04:47:20 (GMT) -- avado 1) 6 cot lvls gives you a feat on 2, 4 and on 6.. black guard gives NO bonus feat, and you get 1 universal save for 2 lvs of cot.
Please note that I sugested swaping 6 levels of fighter for COT, so you would still get 3 of the 4 feats
Quote: The choice of bg is ONLY valid IF you are a sorc (for the charisma) AND if you are evil.
I understand evil, but why sorc? Being able to buff you CHR with Eagles splender seems to make it still valid.
Quote: Is it the best option? NO. Taking 2 lvls of bg is, imho, giving up alot more than 2 lvs of paladin (immune to fear and the same charisma bonus to saves), and you could take taunt aswell.
Good point. But Pal would give XP penalties for at least lvl 39 if you took them last. If you took one earlier it would be worse.
Quote: 2) Taking bard is, well, not really fitting with the concept of a melee caster.
Isnt that kind of the definition of a bard?
Quote: Let me explain: 1 bard lvl will give you no significant ab bonus (as you mentiond) and the skills could better be done with rogue (plus you get d6 of sneak damage).
Again XP probs plus no taunt which was the point of my question.
Quote: But keep in mind, the build was requested for sou only expansion, lv 20 limit.
My question was was about Steve's suggested build which was lvl 40 and no mention of SoU only. Also the original post by Grip made no reference to these limitations. I think maybe we are miscommunicating.
Quote: Diluting the 20 lvls you are given, imho, you must get a huge upside for sacrificing 2 caster lvls for another class. In this respect, paladin is really the only class that gives a large return for such a small investment. Hence, my recommendation (bootlegged originally from the sou strat guide ) for sorc18/pal2 for a caster/melee build. Hope that helps. Peace
Not realy because I was suggesting to dump levels of CoT not caster levels.
So, still my main point is about adding taunt to the build to help the AB.
EDIT: For clarification, I am asking about the link Steve posted for his build...
Sorry if this is a hijaack but I think it is relevant.
Steve,
Could you comment on a couple of questions: 1) What if you swapped 6 COT for fighter and 2 BG? You'd lose 1 feat and 4 save, but pick up divine ch saves of at least 1 assuming only maxed splender - more with items. But you would also gain taunt as a class skill to help the ab?
2) Similiar idea but 1 level of bard for a (crappy but better than nothing) song and taunt and UMD as skills?
Thanks,
UK
Well, just to quickly address this (sorry to take the thread off course, but I think between Avado and myself the poster did get his question fairly well answered) you can do these if you want, but personally, I would not. First of all, it's a feat intensive build, and there isn't really a feat I would want to drop. Secondly, you're definitely taking a save hit. CHA enhancing equipment would help if you went the BG route, but you're already going to want any DEX and STR enhancing gear. You really don't have a lot of room for CHA gear. Thirdly, I don't really consider taunt to be that necessary. The build definitely doesn't have that high AB, although some equipment would help with that. But the point of the build is that if you are running into an enemy or enemies that you can't effectively melee, that's what your spells are for. The build was designed to be a powerful caster with the ability to melee, which enables you to save your powerful spells for exactly those types of enemies you'd need taunt for. Finally, UMD would be ok for some monk gear, but you'd probably want Boots of Speed and an actual wizard/sorcerer robe that would have additional caster related bonuses, and level 1 bard song for 10 rounds per day isn't worth the loss in saving throws.
So that's my take on it .
Steve
Steve, Thanks for the comments. Think I'll play it a little and see if I miss the AB.
UK
Quote: Posted 08/20/05 23:44:40 (GMT) -- avado
imho, the best melee caster (i am assuming arcane, cuz everyone knows clerics rule ) is fighter/weapon master/wizard, with at least 7 wm lvls. Why? YOu get the multi crit range AND the extended crit range (a scrim would have 13-20 crit range without keen, if my math is correct). I have a ftr/wm/wiz with a 11-20 crit range with a bsword at lv 30. Unfortunately, he is gone forever (pw crashed.. we will just say that). There is somethin so sexy and so wrong with a dudette in full plate with a big sword hittin for alot of damage (str build) while protected by buffs and a lowly epic warding... sigh.
I agree. F10/WM7/Wiz23 is a great build. You are a F/WM with extra crit range and multiplier with the full Wizard arsenal. In melee fighting you have acid sheath, death armor, elemental shield, bulls strength, endurance, flame weapon, greater spell mantle, EPIC WARDING, etc.....
Your penetration isn't great, but it is sufficent for all except monks, and you can just melee them with your spells on. A cleric can usually be dispelled with MD, and you have immunity to harm as well.
Overall that's one of the best melee spellcasters.
You can argue a F8/WM22/Cleric12 is also a good one, but I think the wizard wins with Epic Warding as long as +20 weapons are not available.
Quote: Unforgettableknight My question was was about Steve's suggested build which was lvl 40 and no mention of SoU only. Also the original post by Grip made no reference to these limitations. I think maybe we are miscommunicating.
Sorry for the "no reference to these limitations" but thats the way the author .hads78. posted it
My question was was about Steve's suggested build which was lvl 40 and no mention of SoU only. Also the original post by Grip made no reference to these limitations. I think maybe we are miscommunicating.
Like grip posted, he didnt post the question, had did. And you are correct, he didnt mention sou in the first post, BUT he did in the second part, where he asked about subbing the COT lvls, which is the CLARIFYIN part. Since it is his post, I think it is relevant, and ANY discussion about anything other than a 20 lv limit (SOU) is sabatoge (from after Had corrected the question). Steve is so smooth that we did end up answering the 40 lvl question too NIce work
Peace
Edited By avado on 08/29/05 16:39
WOW!!! See, I knew we were miscommunicating. 1) I thought grip made the post I see the ".. by..." that I missed before. 2) I thought hads was a de-rail. 3) So thats why I was asking Steven specifically about his build, not hads limitations.
) is fighter/weapon master/wizard, with at least 7 wm lvls. Why? YOu get the multi crit range AND the extended crit range (a scrim would have 13-20 crit range without keen, if my math is correct). I have a ftr/wm/wiz with a 11-20 crit range with a bsword at lv 30. Unfortunately, he is gone forever (pw crashed.. we will just say that). There is somethin so sexy and so wrong with a dudette in full plate with a big sword hittin for alot of damage (str build) while protected by buffs and a lowly epic warding... sigh. Oh how i miss Thuro 
) for sorc18/pal2 for a caster/melee build. Hope that helps. Peace
.