Hi,

I have been toying with a build idea for a little while and did a few versions. I was looking for opinions on the approaches I am thinking about.

The build concept is "The hypocritical Bit*h". She is an assassin that uses being a bard as a cover to get around and have access to anywhere she needs to in order to perform her black deeds. When working with goodies, she plays the role of party support and is not too bad with the sneak attacks. Also, whenever using assassin abilities, these can be seen as bard abilities, helping with her cover.

I have a few ideas for the build. I am thinking of going Bard 8/Assassin 26/X. For X, I am thinking either blackguard or fighter. The build can be dual-wield on daggers on short sword and dex-based. Too bad to have that much dex and no epic dodge (going with Rogue would give you that, there's a few build like that already and that's not the goal).

Another option I was thinking is to go with Rapier Ba 8/Assassin 26/RDD 4 (not RDD 10, I want no wings). This option could be strenght-based and have dev-crit.

Last option would be Dex-based with Ba 9/SD 1/Assassin 30, with the last Bard level very late. (Again, all those nice bonus great dex feet with no epic dodge or self-concealment )

The build could be human or halfling, though halfing would bring an XP penalty.

Which one would be better for the concept? Should I just do all 3? Any other option I did not think about that would be better?

Thanks,

Drallimer

Edited By Drallimer on 09/01/05 12:20

Quote: Posted 09/01/05 12:15:07 (GMT) -- Drallimer

...

I have a few ideas for the build. I am thinking of going Bard 8/Assassin 26/X. For X, I am thinking either blackguard or fighter. The build can be dual-wield on daggers on short sword and dex-based. Too bad to have that much dex and no epic dodge (going with Rogue would give you that, there's a few build like that already and that's not the goal).

...

Last option would be Dex-based with Ba 9/SD 1/Assassin 30, with the last Bard level very late. (Again, all those nice bonus great dex feet with no epic dodge or self-concealment )

The build could be human or halfling, though halfing would bring an XP penalty.


human would probably work best, but of course, since this sounds like a RP char, your choice on that one.

for your first build, if you want to be able to mele well enough, and unless you have a suprplus of feats, i would take fighter as the extra class. should give you 4 extra feats, which will net you all the TWF feats, with an extra left over, like weapon finesse. this allows you to better focus on other feats, like curse song and such. if you go the blackguard route, you get a small bonus to saves and a couple of spells. unless you were going the cha route, which you probably aren't considering this is an assassin buld, then BG probably isn't worth it.

for your final build idea, you can't take a final level as bard and have 30 levels of assassin, since you need at least 10 non-assassin levels pre-epic, which is the 9 bard and 1 shadowdancer you have listed. as a side note, with few more levels of SD, you could easily get epic dodge, and with halfling (dex bonus) probably SC. just an idea.

hope that helps somewhat.

-c
_________________
"Perception is strong and sight weak. In strategy it is important to see distant things as if they were close and to take a distanced view of close things." - Miyamoto Musashi Good suggestion! I'll try to work epic dodge using more SD levels.

Thanks,


Drallimer
Quote: Posted 09/01/05 12:15:07 (GMT) -- Drallimer

The build could be human or halfling, though halfing would bring an XP penalty.


From what you have posted, bard/***/sd, bard/***/rdd, suffer NO xp penalty regardless of the race. Maybe, if you went bard/ftr then yes. But from what you have suggested, nope. For an experienc penalty to exist you must ONLY consider core classes. sd, rdd, assassin are all prestige classes, so they dont count when considering that. The class a race starts with doesnt count as a penalty IF you are pure or use prestige classes. Starting a halfling as a bard is great as long as you dont take a core class that is not rogue.

Hope that helps

Peace If you go the bard(8)/assassin(26)/X route, fighter would be ideal. You could get weapon spec and Epic Weapon Spec, and you would also be able to get 4 main attacks per round. You could go bard(8)/fighter(4)/assassin(8) pre-epic to get BAB 16 for 4 attacks per round. There's no particular reason to save a bard level for the end. Typically that's done to maximize UMD and Tumble, but Assassin has both of those as class skills anyway.

If you want to go the shadowdancer route, a dex-based bard(8)/SD(10)/assassin(18) would let you get epic dodge as CS suggested, while still having a decent amount of assassin levels.

Steve Great input.

I did the build as Ba 8/SD 10/Assassin 22 and it works out nicely with a halfling dual-wielding daggers or short swords. I went Ba 8/ SD 4/ Assassin 8 pre-epic. I was able to have epic dodge and SC V.

The only problem I am still looking at is how to bring in KD in the build without sacrificing the dual-wield, I like both in a sneak-based build. I will try to build a version with human and keep SC V.

On a side note, the reason why I coinsidered keeping a bard level towards the end for the Ba 9/SD 1/ As 30 was to max out taunt. The 9th level did not give much and would need to be taken in epic anyhow.

Here is the current version.

Bard(8), Shadowdancer(10), Assassin(22)

Halfling, N-E

Abilies STR: 10
DEX: 19 (32)
CON: 10
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 13

Raise Dex throughout

Level progression:

1 Bard(1): Dodge
2 Bard(2)
3 Bard(3): Weapon Finesse
4 Bard(4):
5 Bard(5)
6 Bard(6): Weapon Focus: Dagger
7 Bard(7)
8 Assassin(1)
9 Assassin(2): Mobility, (Uncanny Dodge I)
10 SD(1): (Hide in Plain Sight)
11 Assassin(3)
12 Assassin(4): Ambidexterity
13 Assassin(5)
14 Assassin(6)
15 Assassin(7): Two-Weapon Fighting
16 Assassin(8):
17 Shadowdancer(2):(Darkvision, Evasion)
18 Bard(8): Curse Song
19 SD(3)
20 SD(4)
21 SD(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Dagger, (Defensive Roll)
22 SD(6)
23 SD(7):(Slippery Mind)
24 SD(8): Great Dexterity I
25 SD(9)
26: SD(10): (Improved Evasion)
27: Assassin (9): Epic Dodge
28: Assassin(10)
29: Assassin(11)
30: Assassin(12): Great Dexterity II
31: Assassin(13)
32: Assassin(14): Great Dexterity III
33: Assassin(15): Self Concealment I
34: Assassin(16)
35: Assassin(17)
36: Assassin(18): Self Concealment II, Self Concealment III
37: Assassin(19)
38: Assassin(20)
39: Assassin(21): Self Concealment IV
40: Assassin(22): DEX+1, Self Concealment V


Statistics

Hitpoints: 260
Skillpoints: 278
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 16/19/38
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 40 (melee), 38 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 30/32
Spell Casting: Bard(3)

Skills Disable Trap 37(39), Hide 43(54), Move Silently 43(56), Open Lock 37(48), Perform 14(15), Taunt 21(22), Tumble 43(54), UMD 40(41)

There was a way to get Epic Dodge faster, but it made the build very weak in the teens, so I decided to go the way I did. There is a lot of leeway with the skills.

I put the last bard level a little later for a better and less costly taunt, but sacrificing the cost in other skills it can be cross-classed later on and the 8th bard level with its more potent song can be taken earlier. I am not sure which is best, I guess it would depend on the PW you play.

The end-result seems more capable than I expected once you factor the bard/curse song, the bard/assassin/SD buffs and the Self-concealement. The sneak damage is a little less as well as the DC for the death attack, but the defensive gains are worth it I think.


Comments are welcomed!


Drallimer

Addendum: I just tried a human version with KD, you basically loose the Epic weapon specification for another Great Dex and the build is pretty much the same.

Edited By Drallimer on 09/01/05 18:32

Quote: Posted 09/01/05 18:11:04 (GMT) -- Drallimer
Skills Disable Trap 37(39), Hide 43(54), Move Silently 43(56), Open Lock 37(48), Perform 14(15), Taunt 21(22), Tumble 43(54), UMD 40(41)

Two very minor points, but important ones to know:

Tumble - Tumble shouldn't be taken above 40, because it doesn't do anything. The AC bonus from tumble is +1 every 5 ranks, so 43 isn't any better than 40. As for actually tumbling away from Attacks of Opportunity, the DC of tumble checks is always just 15. With the DEX bonus you have, 3 ranks in tumble would be enough to insure you succeed at every tumble check. So stop that at 40

UMD - UMD skill increases every five levels. You should leave it at 39, so that it's 40 with your CHA bonus.

That gives you a whopping 4 extra points to spend elsewhere. As I said, very minor points, but it's good to know exactly how these skills work and what are the breakpoints when you should stop putting points in them.

Steve Good points.

I'll make the change and post the build in the epic build forum. I am pretty happy with it and can't wait to try it out in a PW!


Drallimer Discipline is a good enough a reason to take bard at or near level 40, as is spellcraft. Failing saves and getting knocked down are always major hassles where I play. In regards to assassins, I try to go with as many levels as possible. I also focus on my intellegence over dexterity. The reason is the DC on the assassin's death attack:

10 + assassin level + Int Mod

At level 40 (30 levels assassin), starting with 16 int and focusing on it, you can get +16 to int through levels and feats, and another +12 through gear and spells, giving you a DC of 57.

Also, going int will increase your total number of skills, and being a bard\assassin, you will have access to a lot of skills.

There is a major weakness in this type of build though. They usually have lower AB. So, throwing in a level or two Wizard just for True Strike might not hurt, and being int based, you should be able to throw around a good number of True Strikes.