I've got a dilemma on choosing between a number of builds that reach the same goals in different ways, and I wanted to get some input from others.
I've been working on refinements a single-wield rapier dex based elf weaponmaster build lately and I've come up with several variations on it that all have their good sides and bad sides. My self-imposed build requirements are pretty strict - I'm looking to maximize both AB and AC, take epic dodge, and get at least two ranks in self-concealment. I also want to be able to cause reasonable damage, on top of all that.
Being reasonably playable is a plus but with all these other requirements, playability is the first thing to suffer.
So I've come up with several builds all aimed in the same general direction. Instead of posting a level by level build I'll just post summaries. All the builds are Elves. They all have the same starting stats (dictated by build and WM requirements), and all end with 32 Dex.
Starting Stats (all): Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 8.
1: Fighter 10/Shadowdancer 11/WM 19 AB +48 (13-20 x3) critical AC 31 naked 418 max hp F 20 R 33 W 15 Epic Dodge at 30, SC 2 at 39 Epic Weapon Specialization +6 damage Two free pre-epic feats (can go to save-boost feats) 32 DC shadow daze HIPS Brief +4 AC boost from Shadow Evade Summoned shadow still has concealment defense Slippery Mind can help cover will save Very playable - uncanny dodge at level 20, but otherwise AB and feat progression is relatively smooth.
2: Rogue 16/COT 8/WM 16 AB +45 (13-20 x3) critical AC 31 406 max hp F 23 R 40 W 19 Epic Dodge at 27, SC 3 at 40 8d6 Sneak Attack No Free Feats - Knockdown included, not considered optional Lots of skillpoints, rogue skill selection. Weaker playability until level 15 when it gets finesse, does fine from then on.
3: Rogue 16/SD 5/WM 19 AB +45 (15-20 x3) critical AC 31 386 max hp F 16 R 36 W 15 Epic Dodge at 24, SC 3 at 39 8d6 Sneak Attack Choice between Crippling Strike and Slippery Mind Shadow Daze DC 27 HIPS Critically few feats - no knockdown, no blindfight even Lots of skillpoints, rogue skill selection. Finesse at 18 and late epic weapon focuse weakens playability considerably.
Right now I'm leaning in the direction of builds 1 and 2 since they have much better saving throw outlooks (build 1 can take strong soul and/or iron will, build 2 has +4 to saves from COT). I've considered a rogue 13/SD 5/WM 22 build variant also, but I think it's questionable if that would be an improvement over the 16/5/16 build.
Thoughts/suggestions? Maybe there's something I'm overlooking that could help me out here. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I did this one a while ago now: Elven Bladedancer - Rogue 17/ Fighter 16/ WM 7
Gets 44 AB only (wasn't looking to max it), SC IV, some sneak die and I took IWWA since it's a single-wielder. Any help?
Maybe you could try the last one with Rogue 19/ SD 1/ WM 19 for some cheese but it needs help to make the WM prereqs... _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Edited By Jennalee on 11/02/05 12:04
the increased playability of build 1 sounds like it leaves the others behind. there is something to be said for SC3, but if that wasn't a goal of the build than i'd say its build #1 in the lead.
-c
p.s.: why SC 2 as a requirement? a scroll of displacement or improved invis would be better (along with UMD that is) for the rogue builds. for the fighter based, i can understand.
I put in SC 2 late in the build's goals, because shadow evade doesn't last very long and has 20% conceal.
As it is I've sort of split the difference... by dropping WM to 7 levels and passing on self conceal 2, I was able to make a fighter 20/wm 7/sd 13 build with +46 AB, a much-alleviated feat situation, and reasonable saves. I like this build the best so far. Could go F 22 WM 7 SD 11, also, but I use the sd bonus feat for either improved whirlwind, or SC 1.
Alternately fighter 20/rogue 13/WM 7 could have the same AB, UMD and sneak attack... or fighter 14 rogue 19 WM 7... hmm guess I should figure those out before I decide fully.
I like the rogue skill selection but I don't consider sneak attacks that important since the build already has high critical output in direct combat. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 11/02/05 17:07
I think you missed the Exp Penalty bit about using rogue though, with Fighter. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
No... playability is a sacrificial concern - it's nice if I can maintain it but I'd rather have the character I want, even if it takes longer to level.
The exp penalty would only come into play in parts of the build anyway, depending on how you split levels.
Anyway the primary thing that has me waffling on rogue vs SD is the skill set - UMD is especially attractive in this build to give it some buffing capability via scrolls. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Xylo, how did you try and build the second option? Couldn't you just delay WM until epic and have a playable Rogue 12/ CoT 8 and then pick up the WM bonuses tailing into epic? _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
I thought about that... the reason I'm kinda hyper on Fighter is for AB purposes and for specialization - this character's going to really want the specialization bonus damage for fighting crit/sneak immune enemies.
I was able to desgin a F 14/R 13/WM 13 build that turned out very nicely (47 AB) but dropped self-conceal and pushed epic dodge to level 39, but added epic will. I think that's a reasonable tradeoff since the build's will save was a big concern for me. It took an exp penalty, but it doesn't have to... it would cost one BAB point (which you can afford), but you could have a very playable fighter/rogue with only a handful of xp penalty levels by going F6/R4/WM 10 in the pre-epic. It had enough skill points in the final build to to invest in rogue skills so that, with the dex bonus and Take 20, it had very capable lock/trap handling.
Going to run an experiment with 17 F/16 SD/WM 7, set up to get significant self-conceal from SD bonus feats. No sneak attack or UMD, but I think SC 3 or 4 would be extremely useful to the character. I'll post the build in a couple versions when I'm done... this has been by far the hardest to refine build I've tried to make. All the WM requirements result in an awful feat starvation. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Agreed. It's hard to get dual-wielding, even with 16 fighter levels and get WM and try for SC. You just have to give up too much IMO. I'd like to see the Fighter/SD/WM though, hopefully with SCV I know mine can achieve it (I have a version sitting around with it) but the level split incurs an exp penalty post-epic for the 13 levels to 40 or so. I think that's too much pain, given that you have to give up one combat feat (for me, was IWWA or IKD, no-no).
I also have a STR-based Rogue/Fighter/WM sitting around with 46 AB and tons of skill points, enough to do rogue jobs well though not to sneak (though I don't really see the point with STR). Pity about the saves you get with those characters though (bad, and lowish HP).
Also, the potential problem you'd run into mixing fighter and SD with no Rogue levels is the skill point requirements. You'll have to CC Hide/MS/Tumble and that will really eat into you skillpoints (you can't get the 10 hide until post-epic that way IIRC) and you'll also have to live without uncanny dodge until then. Ah well. A build similar to what you're going to do with the Fighter/SD/WM is The not-so-dashing Swashbuckler - Fighter 14/ WM 7/ SD 19 by syrath1001. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Edited By Jennalee on 11/03/05 04:49
You can get 10 in a crossclassed skill at level 17... so you can start taking SD at 18.
But I'd be 10 f/10 WM at level 20 in this build to maximize AB. Since it won't get sneak attack damage or much bonus damage, the extra AB means more crits and more of the additional attacks will go through and boost damage that way.
The difference between the rogue and SD style builds, in terms of viability, comes down to environment from what I've been finding.
They are about equal in a low magic environment - the rogue style benefits more from having sneak attack damage (due to lack of powerful weapons) but doesn't benefit from having UMD, while the SD style has lots lower damage potential benefits from having shadow evade, shadow daze, and summon shadow more because there are fewer counters to them, and isn't hurt as much by low saves.
The rogue build is best in a medium magic world where there's enough scrolls to make UMD really good but not enough permanent items to make it redundant. And the SD is best in a high magic environment where its disadvantages are covered by gear and UMD can be supplanted by permanent-bonus items. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
