I've always been a fan of clerics, first and foremost because I loved the numberous RP possibilities in PnP games. Anyway, I have been trying for quite some time to generate an effective cleric build that uses the most possible cleric levels.

I play on a PW called Higher Ground that uses a greatly modified spell system--for instance, even the standard summoning spells have been re-tooled, allowing a lvl 21 cleric to summon a "mist" elemental which is actually quite effective in epic (as opposed to the diminishing effectiveness of the Summon IX the higher you climb into epic). Your abilities all map to how many cleric levels you have---the best pets in the game can only be gotten by a pure-caster with at least 35 levels (or epic summons, which are quite effective as well). Higher level dmg/lvl spells are also pretty much all uncapped, so there is even further benefit to remaining as pure as possible aside from additional feats and increased resistance to being dispelled.

I hope it's ok to post something specific like this on this board...I am aware that it's taboo to do so in the "completed" boards forum, but thought it might be ok to do so here.

What I'd like advice on is which classes would work best to "synergize" with cleric, and how to build them in and achieve as many of the following as possible:

1) Pre-buff melee AB that isn't too low to be useful once buffed (35+ish? melee only; I'm not much for archers)
2) Decent or above-average spell DC's
2) I enjoy "playable" characters rather than ones that are gimped at first but achieve their best results at 40. I don't mind if I have to suffer a bit at first, though
3) Absolute minimum cleric levels would be 30, ideal would be 35+.
4) 15 pre-epic AB is perfectly acceptable..extended divine power is what I'm thinking.
5) I strongly prefer strength-based, unless someone can propose a dex-based version that has a vastly overwhelming number of advantages over strength. Seems unlikely given that clerics are natural heavy armor wearers, but I'm open to ideas on that. I haven't been able to make dex-based work too well with that many cleric levels, however.

I was able to make a 100% pure cleric with the following stats, but wondered if anyone could improve upon this (or propose an entirely different build) by mixing in a sprinkling of other classes (CoT and monk both come to mind, as does rogue or possibly bard):

STR: 15 (26)
DEX: 12
CON: 14
WIS: 15 (24)
INT: 12
CHA: 8

01: Cleric(1): Weapon Proficiency Martial, Power Attack
02: Cleric(2)
03: Cleric(3): Weapon Focus: Warhammer
04: Cleric(4): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Cleric(5)
06: Cleric(6): Extend Spell
07: Cleric(7)
08: Cleric(8): WIS+1, (WIS=17)
09: Cleric(9): Cleave
10: Cleric(10)
11: Cleric(11)
12: Cleric(12): WIS+1, Empower Spell, (WIS=18)
13: Cleric(13)
14: Cleric(14)
15: Cleric(15): Toughness
16: Cleric(16): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
17: Cleric(17)
18: Cleric(18): Maximize Spell
19: Cleric(19)
20: Cleric(20): STR+1, (STR=16)
21: Cleric(21): Epic Weapon Focus: Warhammer
22: Cleric(22)
23: Cleric(23): Armor Skin
24: Cleric(24): STR+1, Epic Prowess, (STR=17)
25: Cleric(25)
26: Cleric(26): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=20)
27: Cleric(27): Great Strength I, (STR=18)
28: Cleric(28): STR+1, (STR=19)
29: Cleric(29): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=21)
30: Cleric(30): Great Strength II, (STR=20)
31: Cleric(31)
32: Cleric(32): STR+1, Great Wisdom III, (STR=21), (WIS=22)
33: Cleric(33): Great Strength III, (STR=22)
34: Cleric(34)
35: Cleric(35): Great Wisdom IV, (WIS=23)
36: Cleric(36): STR+1, Great Strength IV, (STR=24)
37: Cleric(37)
38: Cleric(38): Great Wisdom V, (WIS=24)
39: Cleric(39): Great Strength V, (STR=25)
40: Cleric(40): STR+1, (STR=26)

Cleric(40), Human

Hitpoints: 440
Skillpoints: 172
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/29/17
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 37/32/27 (melee)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 17/28
Spell Casting: Cleric(9)

Spell DC's: Base 17 + spell level. Pretty poor.

Concentration 43(45), Disable Trap 2(3), Discipline 19(27), Open Lock 2(3), Spellcraft 39(40), Tumble 20(21)

Domains: Perma-haste is easy to come by on my PW, so no real need for Travel domain (though it's a thought for buffing pets!). A pure cleric like this really can really gain a lot of power from {{uncapped}} Ice Storms, Call/Chain Lightning, etc (Magic, Air)..but I could be swayed that War is a solid option as well.

I know this is a pretty basic build, with some rather obvious flaws. I cobbled this together rather quickly, but the feats I chose are more or less in-line with what I think help a cleric be a fairly effective melee-ist and a fair nuker. I'm certain there are even more potent options--however, I haven't really been able to put together a build I am completely happy with, so I'm throwing this out there.

I welcome any and all suggestions. Thanks!
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Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.

Edited By chsmi on 12/09/05 21:22

Very well written. You seem to cover all the bases.

The ONLY thing I would add though, is the COT is made for the cleric! I understand why you took all strength, as ab is essential for survival as a meleeist. It was pointed out by someone here as to the effectiveness of divine favor being more beneficial with only 3 atts/rd vs the 4 that many of us strive for. So, taking that into account, take 20 lvls of cleric, adding to str. Then take 10 cot lvls epic. WHY? cuz you can take 10 great wisdom feats, giving you really nice base wisdom for a cleric. Then finish off with cleric, ending in cleric30/cot10.

CHEESE ALERT! It is quite tempting to take 1 monk lvl at 40 for the wis AC and tumble.. but that is up to you. 29 cleric lvls would mean you should look at spell penetration.

just my two cents.

Peace Drop Dex to 10 or even 8 and ensure you take War Domain (for Cat's Grace and Aura of Vitality). Pump those points into your CHA instead to make your Battle Mastery duration longer.

The WIS Bonus from Monk is no good unless you are unarmored and without a shield. However you could opt for Bard instead to open up Discipline, Taunt and Tumble.

Maximise and Empower? Personally I would take just one... Empower on its own. Doing that would let you take Improved Critical instead.

Variations with a mainly pure cleric base:

Cleric, Monk, CoT - Dex Based, work pretty well.

Cleric, Monk, Paladin

Cleric, Bard, CoT

Consider also using a dwarf, particularly if you aren't using a domain relying on CHA for its duration, such as Trickery or Plant.

Of course there is an infamous mix of Cleric, Monk, WM. I forget the name and its creator but I'm sure you can find it.

If you do go Clc 30 and CoT 10, to maximise WIS, then consider getting Epic, Greater and Spell Focus Evocation. If you can hit the cap of 50 in WIS, albeit with +12 from items, then your casting DC on Implosion is 48 - quite formidable considering there is no save.

Edited By I...Samphus on 12/09/05 22:21

Great suggestions, guys. I have done monk/cleric/cot before, and really enjoy that combo, but I think in this case cleric/cot might be the way to go (and on my PW, pure class are generally more powerful).

What I really need are more levels to work with
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Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity. This build makes me ponder the value of spell DC versus the ability to penetrate SR. While it seems like the best casters are high in both categories, is SR penetration really that much of an issue in a primarily PvM world? It seems that the best route is to pump up spell DC using spell foci (evocation would by far be my first choice for a build like this).

So, I guess this brings up more questions:

What's a good "cut-off" in terms of spell penetration ability? Is a 30+d20 generally enough to pound through most NPC SR, or would you take some penetration feats if you were only taking 30 levels?
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Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Quote: Posted 12/09/05 23:28:25 (GMT) -- chsmi

So, I guess this brings up more questions:

What's a good "cut-off" in terms of spell penetration ability? Is a 30+d20 generally enough to pound through most NPC SR, or would you take some penetration feats if you were only taking 30 levels?

The highest default Spell Resistance is 32 so, if the monsters on your PW don't have custom SR, you only need to beat 32 maximum. That means for 30 levels of CLC, to absolutely guarantee you'll beat all SR, you just need to take the first Spell Penetration feat. But, even without it you'd only fail 5% of the time (if you happen to roll a 1 on your Spell Pen check)
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Quote: Posted 12/09/05 23:36:50 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Quote: Posted 12/09/05 23:28:25 (GMT) -- chsmi

So, I guess this brings up more questions:

What's a good "cut-off" in terms of spell penetration ability? Is a 30+d20 generally enough to pound through most NPC SR, or would you take some penetration feats if you were only taking 30 levels?

The highest default Spell Resistance is 32 so, if the monsters on your PW don't have custom SR, you only need to beat 32 maximum. That means for 30 levels of CLC, to absolutely guarantee you'll beat all SR, you just need to take the first Spell Penetration feat. But, even without it you'd only fail 5% of the time (if you happen to roll a 1 on your Spell Pen check)

Seems like an acceptable percentage chance...good to know. Thanks, Cin.

Do you have any opinions on what an ideal spell DC range would be for a build of this type?

It seems that getting it to a base 17-19 (+ spell lvl, of course) is pretty trivial to do, but I also would hazard a guess that many PvM enemies will make saves (particularly Fort) in this range more often than not.

17 base + 9th (max) = 26 DC (29 for implosion, yes?)

Could probably stretch it to 30 without using foci (but pumping WIS instead). At what point do you decide that your spell DC's are simply too low and thus take foci?
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Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Quote: Posted 12/09/05 23:47:14 (GMT) -- chsmi

Seems like an acceptable percentage chance...good to know. Thanks, Cin.

Do you have any opinions on what an ideal spell DC range would be for a build of this type?

As high as feasible.

Quote: It seems that getting it to a base 17-19 (+ spell lvl, of course) is pretty trivial to do, but I also would hazard a guess that many PvM enemies will make saves (particularly Fort) in this range more often than not.

17 base + 9th (max) = 26 DC (29 for implosion, yes?)

Could probably stretch it to 30 without using foci (but pumping WIS instead). At what point do you decide that your spell DC's are simply too low and thus take foci?

Aye, Implosion is +3 on the DC. My experience has been that epic mobs will have Fort saves in the mid to high 30s at least.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...