I'm looking for some good ideas on the best builds to take down Palemasters in PvP. The PW I play on has some good RP, and an evil guild of Palemsters have started to get a bit ***y and need to be taken down a peg or 2
I've tried a 26cleric/2Pal/12CoT build, built for a high AB, extra damage types and high saves...he rocks in PvM, can take on all sorts of PvP, but he just doesnt cut it when fighting Palemasters. I'm currently working on a 4F/16Pal/20CoT with Great Smite 10. Hit em hard and fast, but I'm worried that his buffs will be dispelled almost instantly by just about anyone, and if he gets taunted, he just wont be able to hit them even with his 14Charisma bonus with Great Smite. I've seen an awesome build in action, 26Sorc/4Pal/10RDD, but while I'm reasonable at building chars myself, I just cant get my head around getting the most out of bonus feats and Level progression...
I've been playing the PW for a few years, so have just about any item you could dream of to equip him with (the PW uses UOAbigail's Crafting System...for those that don't know, that means weapons/armour up to +8, and some cool rings (Up to +50 skill bonuses) and ammy's (more novelty value than powerful))
So what do you think? Whats the best build to take down a PM when he's likely to be wearing some uber items and be built by some awesome PvP builders? And what tactics would you suggest for your build?
Thanks
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DaMouse404
I'd try investing in some rogue levels to get use magic device personally just so you can splat him with Mord scrolls, then because you're a cleric, WORD OF FAITH! HARM HARM HARM HARM! Else just use greater dispelling ^_^
Tactic (C) Audemed Lightbringer
-DaMouse
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bloodymerc
pally monk sd dual kamas , dispell on hit then hips and epic dodge saves you from getting hit.
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I...Samphus
Full 40 levels of cleric and then harm, implosion or similar
Exalted Sorceress - works wonders
Order of Jurmangadhr - think that's how it is spelt - Kail's littel pet!
There's plenty of others, maybe even Grimnir's latest Ranger 35, Bard 1, Fighter 4.
A pure caster should win fairly often, due to the number of castable spells with either no save or high damage dealt even if the save is made, Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting
A pure cleric or CLC 30, COT 10 should manage a very high DC on Harm, Implosion, Destruction, etc.
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dust7
igm-spamming should do the job.
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Grimnir77
Are palemasters that effective? Get some SR if they are PM heavy. Their AC is rocket high with enough PM, but AB will suffer. Just hit them harder or more often in a battle of 20's. The ranger build with Imp Power attack, or kama dual-wielding Pal monk with imp power attack. I have fought against PM heavy builds lots of times, they can be hard to kill, but are rarely that effective offensively either all depending.
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GoVols
I'm sure you're seeing what alot of people are experiencing now that their biggest weakness (sneakers) was adjusted/fixed.
Are you facing spellcasting PM's (29Sorc/10PM/1Bard) types with really high AC's or are you facing melee types (26F/4Bard/10PM)?
What is the maximum AC you can get on items? That does matter on whether you can hit them on anything other than 20's.
I'll look for the answers in the "General Discussion" section I suppose.
oops...sorry about putting this up in the wrong forum
I'm facing both melee PMs and casting PMs...it's a guild specifically made up of PMs, so there are lots of different builds, all with at least 10lvls PM...
There are 3 that seem next to impossible to beat though, a 29sorc/10pm/1monk, and a bard/pm that I'm not really sure of the exact build (he has huge ac, taunt, curse song and bard song, epic mage armour and epic warding), and a bard/PM/RDD which seems to be next to impossible to hit, and soaks up any damage when you do manage to hit it (heh...I saw another build designed to soak pain go up against him and after about half an hour they both decided to call it a draw, both virtually uninjured ...)
From what I can gather, most of their builds end up with AC in the 80's when fully equipped, and they're either spellcasters with shields up that deal a lot of damage if you hit them and fire off a lot of spells if you try to cast against them, or they're melee builds that don't hit you that often themselves, but when they do they do a lot of damage and are hard to hit/damage in return...
The PW I play on has a rare drop in it which is a PvPers best friend...a Shadow Hood, which gives immunity to harm and IGMS, so those 2 spells are pretty much out as a way to bring them down. Their immunity to crits and shields like acid sheath pretty much negates a f/wm build as well.
So I guess I'm looking for builds that do heaps of damage in 1 or 2 hits, hence my attempt at a great smite build, or a spellcaster with very high spell penetration that specialises in unsavable spells...
So here's the build I'm working on now, my smiter...Unfortunatly, I didnt write down my cleric build so cant give you details, he's quite old now and I've forgotten )
Any ideas on other builds or other ways to kill them?
Will Have a 68AB, when fully buffed and equipped and a mid 70’s AC… What I did for skills was put 1 in taunt, and max concentration while still taking Pally levels.. Then after that put the rest into Discipline and tumble.
Edited By evildeath123 on 02/08/06 08:40
Smites work only vs evil (good if you are a BG), if the PM players are smart then they've got neutral PMs, so forget about smiting builds. I would try a good dragon build (put cleric in the equation and you've got a super selfbuffing dragon), or a cleric build with high implosion DC. Try the search engine, there's lotsa of them.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
I have to agree with Kail here. If these guys are good enough to make builds that are very tough, they will be good enough to have them neutral. I know you would never catch me playing as good or evil if I know PvP is afoot, unless the server has strict no neutrality rules, and you have to choose between good or evil. So, smite would be useless if that is the case. I probably would not play a melee build against these guys either. Have you thought about going caster heavy? A Wiz 38/ Melee Class 1/ Bard 1? You will have excellent casting capabilities, as well as be able to wear the best armor/shields, and be able to max out tumble, umd, and any other bard skills. You could sub Sorc for Wiz, and have a wicked taunt of your own with your charisma bonus and maxed taunt. By going Caster Heavy, you will also have max concentration and will be less susceptible to getting taunted yourself. You have plenty of other spells besides spamming IGMS that will work. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
Try this old build from Mithradates. He often knew what he did. they will not be able to touch you with spells at all, except greater Ruin, but that alone won't kill you.
Click Here
This build has SR 66 which makes him untouchable by casters. Since you will be up against PM10 builds, you will at the most need SR 56. You can either drop SR feats down to SR 5, and improving other things, or drop monk levels for some fighter/rog/bard to grab EWS, UMD to get hold of Mord and Breach scrolls, but since this character uses bow, get some arrows you know will do damage, and get a lot since their AC will be high (even in a Wiz29/PM10 build????).
But anyhow, unless they are melee, they can't touch you. even if they are melee, AB should not be to high.
Good luck. Wish I had this challenge, I love finding the key to crack such locks.
heh...very good point on the neutrality, I always try to make my chars neutral as well to avoid smiting, and also to be able to use all those good/evil specific items...but theirs is an evil guild, so they're all evil PMs
I'm actually feeling pretty stupid that I didnt think of a smiting build earlier but I have tried a 38wiz/1rogue/1sd...I'm too used to playing melee builds though I guess and just have to learn all the spells that are unsaveable and the best order to cast etc.
Heh...my cleric build had good implosion dc, problem was I just couldnt work out how far away from myself to cast it and was very embarressed a few times when I imploded myself on the field of battle
A cleric/dragon build...thats 1 I havent thought of before though...sweet thnx
Hmmm...maybe I should dust of my cleric/bard/aa build as well come to think of it...that 36m/4pal reminded me of his awesome ab and buffs, and the inability to save against divine damage...cheers guys...all good advice
Edited By evildeath123 on 02/09/06 02:14
The next patch will change implosion so It won't harm the caster *whew*, so that's going to help.
The guild he is fighting has a rule 'you must be evil',no neutral PM's there.. so smiters would work. (they are purists).
Some have items that give insane soak, and SR making them damn hard to hurt at all.
Their ac's are high 80's to as high as 98. an ab of 80 is almost unheard of there(not even aa's), in a battle of 20's they seem to win everytime I have seen. And the problem he hasn't mentioned is, Dev. Crit. is in on that server. So 1 hit and your dead, even pallys fall quick.
And like he said, these guys can't even kill each other.
Not sure There's an easy, or solid solution Death.
If they are evil, have high DR and SR, then the smiter is the way to go. I would even drop the 4 fighter levels for 4 more CoT (you lose WS/EWS, but that's only good for 6 damage, the 4 levels with Great Smite X gains you another 40 damage per smite). Pal 18/CoT 22, or Pal 20/CoT 20. You'll be doing 400 points of smite damage on a hit, plus some from base, weapon enhancement, str, divine might and divine wrath. Plus with Holy Sword you will also be dispelling their buffs or acid sheaths. Should be able to take them out with 2-3 smites.
TM
Palemasters dont have to be evil so Smite wont cut it.
AA with called shot leg spam pwns PMs. Low damage but the only thing better than a dex based PMs AC is an AA's AB. Add true strike for the first few rounds, drop there movement speed to Zero and commence to Pwn.
Easy.
That or be a noob and Timestop + Maxed IGMS spam. Kills everything.
Quote: Posted 02/18/06 16:41:26 (GMT) -- plan__b
Palemasters dont have to be evil so Smite wont cut it.
AA with called shot leg spam pwns PMs. Low damage but the only thing better than a dex based PMs AC is an AA's AB. Add true strike for the first few rounds, drop there movement speed to Zero and commence to Pwn.
Easy.
That or be a noob and Timestop + Maxed IGMS spam. Kills everything.
plan__b, please read the whole topic before coming with faulty statements. this topic is all about taking out palemasters from a certain palemaster guild. that guild has a evil only rule, you cant enter the guild if you are not an evil palemaster. that means a smiter would work very well against them. your idea of using an arcane archer with called shot is still good though.
Also the idea of timestop and igms spam wont do the job either as the server has items to protect against igms.
I would go with a smiter(probably paladin/cot/monk) with high pally level, to get the holy sword spell, but only if its not possible to find a weapon with the holy avenger ability on it. if you can get hold of an holy avenger then drop some pally levels for champion of torm to get more feats. Also, keep in mind that pally and champion of torm combined will give you very good saves against many of their spells and against dev crit.
a build like that should do the work quite well. just my 2 cents.
Edited By Sten 87 on 02/18/06 20:29
Jumped the Gun. Apologies, but thanks for the regard =)
Smite wont cut it with most Dex Based PMs anyway. Nothing worse than missing on all three smites. And 99% of all Smiters dont have true strike.
But AA's with Called Shot eat PMs (specially Dex based) to pieces. Add True Strike into that equation and you have 6 attacks (lets say 4 of them land) which means -80% movement penalty, -8 Dex, and -4 AC in the first round. It's all down hill for them there. For the Three Rounds they're speed is down, drop back to deep range, switch to Drive Cam (to stay out of there visual range so you can't get hit with spells) and just keep Called Leg Spam. Most PMs have average HP (re: 400ish) so you should finish them pretty quick.
...at least this is all in theory. But its worked for me a few times.
Edited By plan__b on 02/18/06 20:31
I know Called shot arm is cumulative, but i thought called shot leg wasn't. Is it? _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Sure it is, I once was fighting a dragon with an AA and slowed him so much (after like 8 to called shots leg) that with my hasted speed he couldn't touch me by miracle, every called shot leg that hit slowed him more and more, just one doesn't makes such a big change. I suppose the DEX penalty is also cumulative, should be.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/19/06 05:53
Quote: Posted 02/18/06 20:24:50 (GMT) -- plan__b
Jumped the Gun. Apologies, but thanks for the regard =)
Smite wont cut it with most Dex Based PMs anyway. Nothing worse than missing on all three smites. And 99% of all Smiters dont have true strike.
Well, a Paladin 20/Cot 20 build could end with Cha 26 and Str 18, and fit Great Smite X in. That build would get a smite AB of 79 fully buffed (+12 to Str and Cha, Divine Wrath and all Paladin buffs). That's with a mundane sword, although the will need a +6 or better weapon to replace their buff bonuses with +1 for each point above +5. That should hit most things fairly often, and if the first one hits, the Holy Avenger should bring down some of their defenses. He can also Taunt effectively (high Cha, can take SF/ESF: Taunt for an unbuffed Taunt of 64, 70 with buffed CHA), so that will give him another +6 if he uses it before smiting. If he still can't hit them, he should try to get a Bard in the party for Song/Curse Song.
Quote: But AA's with Called Shot eat PMs (specially Dex based) to pieces. Add True Strike into that equation and you have 6 attacks (lets say 4 of them land) which means -80% movement penalty, -8 Dex, and -4 AC in the first round. It's all down hill for them there. For the Three Rounds they're speed is down, drop back to deep range, switch to Drive Cam (to stay out of there visual range so you can't get hit with spells) and just keep Called Leg Spam. Most PMs have average HP (re: 400ish) so you should finish them pretty quick.
...at least this is all in theory. But its worked for me a few times.
The problem with AA's is Epic Warding. Even a level 29 AA can't pierce Epic Warding (need +20, and they only have +15 on their Enchant Arrow, which replaces the normal arrow enhancement, no way to increase it, and bow enhancement does not stack for DR purposes). So the physical damage from the arrows will be completely absorbed by EW. If you are facing PM's without EW, then the AA is okay,but he mentioned a build with 29 wiz levels, which probably has EW.
The damage from Smite, Divine Wrath and Divine Might is divine damage, and bypasses EW completely, so he can smite for 423 damage even with EW up. The physical damage from the weapon and strength will be absorbed, but that's a very small part of the total damage on a smite (probably less than 20). If they have ~400 HP, the smite will be a 1-hit kill, 2-hit max.
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 02/20/06 03:32
Smiting deals physical damage though. _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
~ Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Apart from this Shadow Hood that grants immunity to Harm and IGMS. Are there any other items there that grant immunities, Spell Res, etc? It could help to find a solution.
Personally, it sounds like the Exalted Sorceress may be your best bet, due to the saves and casting power.
Perhaps Time Stop then Extended Bigby's Grasping Hand each of them. Then they are at your mercy:
Plenty of AoE spells to start with: Evard's Black Tentacles, Acid Fog, Cloudkill, Incendiary Cloud, Mind Fog, etc.
Of course, you may want to MD them first before you unleash your AoE spells. This may be a safer route than melee. Particularly if they have Damage Reduction items on as well.
Follow up with any of: Ice Storm, Horrid Wilting, Firebrand, Chain Lightning, Finger of Death, Flame Arrow, Acid Fog, Cloudkill.
Paladin/CoT with enough charisman also has a nice Lay on Hands, which should hurt them quite a lot. And it's a touch-attack ... Palemaster 10+ do count as undead, right?
They don't. _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
~ Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
In order to be able to kill something, you first have to understand your enemy! Knowing their strengths and how the build works will allow you to better combat them and fight to their weakness.
There are several different kinds of Palemaster...melee (sub-categories: dex / str), casters (sub-categories: clerics / mages / bards) & others
Basic PM abilities:
Immunity to Critical Hits / Sneak Attack +2 AC / 4 levels & 1st level At levels 15 PMs can learn Epic Spells, as long as they meet the spellcraft requirements.
Any class can make a PM as long as they have 3 levels of bard, wizard or sorcerer. This however greatly limits the number of different pale master builds you can make. Plus it means that you often have to sacrifice total dominance in one area for a sub-standardness with critical immunity.
Generally most Pale Master builds will stick to the Bard class as it also affords Tumble as well as UMD. So combining a 3rd class with this gives you the resulting build. This can be ANY class (apart from Shifter) however some work a lot better than others...
Melee PMs: (eg. Pally 20/Bard or Wiz 4/PM 16)
Str - These typically have less AC than other PM builds, however can easily have Dev. Crit with an AB in the 60s (WITHOUT any special items ). Strength based also means they can have high disciplines, though will end up with less HP than a lot of other melee builds.
Dex - Worst kind of PMs...practically impossible to hit with Epic Mage Armor & can have AB in the 60s depending on build...typically they have low Disciplines and low HP though when compared to other melee builds.
Casters:
Clerics (eg. Cleric 26, Bard 4, PM 10) - Thankfully a support build more than anything...designed to be in the heat of combat delivering much needed heals to allies...best to ignore! They are surprisingly effective healers, however swiftly run out of spells & lose their effectiveness...
Mages (eg. Wiz or Sorc 29 / Monk 1 / PM 10) - Whew these guys can be really annoying, however due to lack of caster levels they can really lack Spell Penetration. They do have higher AC than non-PM mages however...this makes them harder to hit in Melee, however anything with a DECENT spell resistance will be able to OWN them. A high Cleric (38/1/1) handing out spell resistances (SR =50) would really aid your battle vs. these...otherwise a high Monk build works well...however in Melee you'll have to watch out for those pesky Acid Sheathes...
Bards (eg. 30 bard/10 PM 100 perform - max song) - these guys are really going to make things tough for you...the +7 AC / +2 AB song combined with Cursre song translates to +9 AC / +7 AB...plus the +11 to Skill practically eliminates any chance of IKD...throw in a Wounding Whispers damage shield and things are starting to look really really bad. However there is a really nice counter to all this Silence...the simple lvl 2 Cleric/Bard spell not only negates all Sonic damage but also prevents Curse song from having any effect. Further to that if you can get close before he sings you can even prevent the normal song aswell
Other PM builds:
Monk (Wiz or Sorc 4 / PM 28 / Monk - These guys can have the highest possible AC attainable in a NWN character...however that comes at a high price...they can do little else apart from run around on steroids...
RDDs - A popular way to get high AC & good abilities, however they are still combat/casting defficient
DDs - also known as the Garbabage Cans! These guys can get practically immune to combat damage...though their AB is usually too low to respond directly to threats they can easily use an Acid Sheath to fight back...
-----
As mentioned earlier you can put any class with a Pale Master...however they will generally be less powerful than another build that is natural to that class...eg. a PM Rogue would only have Pale Master levels to gain critical/sneak immunity & extra AC...this is easily counterbalanced by a well built Rogue that will have much greater AB & more feats! A Pally-PM can be a powerful build...but a Pally-RDD can be far greater - except it doesn't have critical/sneak immunity
That said, generally I find the most effective way to counter a Pale Master is to fight fire with fire! You just need a really good build that takes the essence of the PM build you are facing and remove the Pale Mastery...don't forget they are already limited by having to factor 2 Classes into their build...you have the choice of 3 so can ALWAYS come up with a build to beat them...
....and remember just because they have Sneak Immunity it does not mean that they have the immunity to be caught flat-footed _________________ Grrr...hear my roar!!!
Divine Wrath and Divine Might damage count as divine, as does the bonus damage from Holy Sword. Even if the Smite is physical, at 400 + base + str + enhancements it will still put 350+ past Epic Warding. The total damage on a smite with Holy Sword, Divine Favor, Divine Wrath and Divine Might can get up into the mid 400's, so EW might make it take 2 hits to kill them, but no more than that.
AA's still have the problem that it is almost impossible for them to do more than 50 in one hit, and no easy way to add Divine Damage to the arrows.
TM
At least when I'm bumping uglies I'm dealing hundreds of physical damage plus some magical and divine from Divine Might/Favor. _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
Hmm, your PW has pretty powerful item. Which skews many builds. But I think specialized Rakshasa build can do the job of killing PMs. Something like Druid5/Wiz24/Shifter11 by Sbully or Druid 29/Shifter 10/Monk 1. Personally, I think Druid/Shifter/Monk may be better suited for the job. (although it depends on what kind of immunities items grant)
Rakshasa shape will give you... +5 Staff (20/x2), 1d10 fire True Seeing +2 Universal Save DR 15/+5 (which in this case isn't important) Knockdown, dodge (ditto) Unlimited casting of... Dispell (could be useful against some PM builds) Mestil's Acid Breath (meh) Ice Storm (Woot!) Discipline +5, Hide +10, Move Silently +11, Spellcraft +15, Spot +10
And...(drum roll) IMMUNITY TO SPELLS FROM LVL 0 to 8!!
Remember also that all of unlimited casting spells use your druid (or any caster lvl combined) to calculate your damage, DC, etc. Also you can maximize/empower Ice storm and by quick slotting it, you can cast it in Rakshasa form.
By having Druid lvl of 29, you will also get added benefits. Like SR of 41 with Spell resistance spell.
Tactics: Extend all your buffs and cast prior to entering combat area. It should last you quite sometime. Open with some spells that have no save (since +50 to skill items and such give ridiculous saves against spells). Like, extended Inferno (2d6 fire/rnd) or just maximized/empowerd Ice storm. Sun burst is also great opener too. If you get lucky and they fail Reflex save, they will be permanently blinded (till they remove with use of magic).
Remember also that you can cast epic spells while in Rakshasa form, if you've taken any.
Chiibo
The Rakshasa idea's not bad, as long as they don't cast Bigby's Crushing Hand (or if you cast Spell Resistance and their caster level is too low to beat it).
FYI, the Rakshasa spell casting level will be equal to the class level of your first class (whichever class you take at level 1). So if you plan to rely on Ice Storm damage, use the Druid 29 build and start as a druid.
Don't bother with inferno - since it's only 2d6 per round, any item with +10/fire or more will pretty much stop all of it. Same for the staff fire damage, unless you can get something else good on your weapon (Rakshasa merges weapons). If they have Holy Avengers on the server, it may be worth taking a single level of Paladin or something with UMD to merge those.
Mestil's acid breath may actually be worthwhile depending on what type of acid resistance items are available.
The Rakshasa idea's not bad, as long as they don't cast Bigby's Crushing Hand (or if you cast Spell Resistance and their caster level is too low to beat it).
FYI, the Rakshasa spell casting level will be equal to the class level of your first class (whichever class you take at level 1). So if you plan to rely on Ice Storm damage, use the Druid 29 build and start as a druid.
Don't bother with inferno - since it's only 2d6 per round, any item with +10/fire or more will pretty much stop all of it. Same for the staff fire damage, unless you can get something else good on your weapon (Rakshasa merges weapons). If they have Holy Avengers on the server, it may be worth taking a single level of Paladin or something with UMD to merge those.
Mestil's acid breath may actually be worthwhile depending on what type of acid resistance items are available.
TM
Bigby's Crushing Hand! Don't even get me started on this one. I play where it is banned in PvP use. But one question. Can you shift while held? If so, taking Dragon Shape will help you escape it.
Ah, so I got the wrong info on rakshasa caster lvl. True enough that inferno ins't effective with 10/fire stuff. Hmm, storm of vengence is good spell but of little use against PMs. Or my favourite combo against mages... stone hold, spike growth, storm of vengence and top it with creeping doom (if heartbeat issue is fixed in PW).
Staff will be pretty much useless no matter what. Your AB will be too low to hit PMs (maybe caster PMs?). Choosing items (including weapons) to merge by their immunities and DR, may be better way to go.
Chiibo
Edit: spelling
Edited By Chiibo on 02/21/06 19:38
I second the exhaulted sorc type build, or even a Sorc27/PM12/Rogue1 type build. Are you against using a PM build too?
Without +20 weapons, you will NOT hit someone with 80-90AC with your smites, and you will never penetrate Epic Warding either!
*YES, SMITES are PHYSICAL damage, not Divine. I have a guy that smites a critical hit for 1000 damage, and it is physical.* I also thought it would be divine, but I was wrong.
You are not going to get a melee build with weak weapons, and high AC items to kill a high AC build, unless there is no REGEN items, and you are both just waiting on 20's. That is why a spellcaster is best.
Truely though, high AC items + Epic Warding not nerfed + no high +AB weapons = totally unbalanced server. Sounds like a server soon full of PM's only!
Quote: Posted 02/23/06 17:44:48 (GMT) -- GoVols Without +20 weapons, you will NOT hit someone with 80-90AC with your smites, and you will never penetrate Epic Warding either!
Well, the Pal 20/CoT 20 build already posted can get up to a 78 AB on a smite when fully buffed (38 base, + 8 from Cha on a smite, +6 for buffed Cha, +6 for buffed Str, and up to +20 from other buffs - they can get +9 from Divine Wrath, +5 from Divine Favor, +1 from Bless and Aid, and +5 from Holy Sword - that's already +21 with a mundane weapon, over the cap). So I would say PM's with an AC in the 80's are in range with 3 shots, once they get into the 90's your odds of hitting go down pretty quickly. But with AB of 78, an 85 AC would most likely get hit 2 out of 3 shots. At 98+ it's pretty impossible, only 1 in 20 will hit, and you probably need 2 hits to be certain of killing them.
And the damage is high enough that Epic Warding won't matter that much - even if it does absorb 50 points of damage, you are dealing enough that around 400 will still get through. I am not sure if all the bonuses from the buffs will count as +20 to penetrate it - they add up to over +20, and reach the cap, but I don't know if you have to have +20 from a single buff to penetrate EW.
Quote: Truely though, high AC items + Epic Warding not nerfed + no high +AB weapons = totally unbalanced server. Sounds like a server soon full of PM's only!
Well, the Pal 20/CoT 20 build already posted can get up to a 78 AB on a smite when fully buffed (38 base, + 8 from Cha on a smite, +6 for buffed Cha, +6 for buffed Str, and up to +20 from other buffs - they can get +9 from Divine Wrath, +5 from Divine Favor, +1 from Bless and Aid, and +5 from Holy Sword - that's already +21 with a mundane weapon, over the cap). So I would say PM's with an AC in the 80's are in range with 3 shots, once they get into the 90's your odds of hitting go down pretty quickly. But with AB of 78, an 85 AC would most likely get hit 2 out of 3 shots. At 98+ it's pretty impossible, only 1 in 20 will hit, and you probably need 2 hits to be certain of killing them.
One thing there, base is 30 not 38, but I see your calculations of AB are correct for all the spells and feats. Personally, I still have to test the CHA additon on a smite. I know I have seen knowledgeable people like yourself say that, but I remember my smiter with all the feats and spells seemed to suffer even with a +20 weapon on his smite. He has 36 CHA with items. I have killed many people, but I have also missed. I don't remember seeing the bonus in the rolls, but maybe things have changed since I built and played him.
Even with a 79AB though, a smart Sorc/PM is going to hit you with a Bigby Interposing Hand first and now you have 69AB vs. 80+AC. Now your first chance has less than 50% chance, and you know the rest. If they are in the mid 80's you just have to hope and pray for a 20.
The problem with smiting to kill is you are a 3 hit wonder and BAM you're out. You are putting all of your eggs in one basket. The best strategy would probably be to just hit them on a 20roll with a Holy Avenger if you can live that long, strip them of buffs before you attempt smites.
These are the reasons why I suggested a caster as well, because the AC won't be relevant. You can have good CON and end up with alot of HP (600+).
I wouldn't attempt melee unless you can have an item to easily dispell the hand (MD Scroll, etc.) AND you can use scrolls such as Word of Faith on them......of couse they should have spell mantles, except for the more melee types.
Quote: Posted 02/23/06 18:23:58 (GMT) -- Tattoed Monk And the damage is high enough that Epic Warding won't matter that much - even if it does absorb 50 points of damage, you are dealing enough that around 400 will still get through. I am not sure if all the bonuses from the buffs will count as +20 to penetrate it - they add up to over +20, and reach the cap, but I don't know if you have to have +20 from a single buff to penetrate EW.
I agree too. You will have people soak some of your damage. My 1000 on a crit was usually 900's after a greater belt and other resistances applied.
I would have to test whether all those bonuses = 20AB in the eyes of Epic Warding. Good question, but it shouldn't matter in the end.
Quote: Posted 02/24/06 18:46:43 (GMT) -- GoVols One thing there, base is 30 not 38, but I see your calculations of AB are correct for all the spells and feats.
By base, I meant before buffs and smite. 30 + 1 (WF) + 2 (EWF) +1 (EP) + 4 (base Str) = 38.
Exalted Sorc would certainly be a reasonable way to go vs. a PM or anything else, for that matter, assuming they haven't nerfed too may spells, or have too many immunity items. I kind of thought the OP had hinted that there were a number of immunity items on the PW, though, which was why they were looking for melee builds in the first place. IGMS and Harm are already out, as long as Bigby's and Mord's are still good, Exalted Sorc is probably good. If those are nerfed or there are immunity items, then the smiter will have a better chance.
By base, I meant before buffs and smite. 30 + 1 (WF) + 2 (EWF) +1 (EP) + 4 (base Str) = 38.
Exalted Sorc would certainly be a reasonable way to go vs. a PM or anything else, for that matter, assuming they haven't nerfed too may spells, or have too many immunity items. I kind of thought the OP had hinted that there were a number of immunity items on the PW, though, which was why they were looking for melee builds in the first place. IGMS and Harm are already out, as long as Bigby's and Mord's are still good, Exalted Sorc is probably good. If those are nerfed or there are immunity items, then the smiter will have a better chance.
TM
Agreed.
IF the CHA bonus to smite doesn't count towards the +20 cap the best theoretical smite AB I've managed to come up with is using pally/sorc/rdd. You sacrifice a few greater smites (down to 6/7) but you can get a higher AB. A quick run up of it shows approx. 26/28 STR/CHA, and AB of about 42ish. With truestrike you can hit the +20 cap to hit 62 ab, with +12 STR (unlikely I guess) you have 68 ab, with +12 CHA (more likely with pally buffs) you get 40 CHA so 83 AB on a smite. This is a horrible build for anything else though.
Hahaha, bro I have the same problem as you do, well sort of. In the PvP I play in,the mages are a bunch of ***'s who only use Finger of Death. I found that Cleric is actually the best way to go to deal with them. See, Clerics have a certain spell, don't remember the level but it's a low one, called Negative Energy Protection. NEP turns away all death attacks, and if your PW server has taken off imunties don't worry, because this spell will still keep you alive from that pesky FoD. _________________ You can't kill what was simply never there. . .
Else just use greater dispelling ^_^
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but I have tried a 38wiz/1rogue/1sd...I'm too used to playing melee builds though I guess and just have to learn all the spells that are unsaveable and the best order to cast etc. 
). Strength based also means they can have high disciplines, though will end up with less HP than a lot of other melee builds.
- These guys can have the highest possible AC attainable in a NWN character...however that comes at a high price...they can do little else apart from run around on steroids...
I play where it is banned in PvP use. But one question. Can you shift while held? If so, taking Dragon Shape will help you escape it.