I rarely see EBT in people's spell lists. I've been tinkering with a Gnome mechanic build (Wiz 35 / Rogue 5, emphasis on the INT skills, open locks, and set traps), and he uses it all the time to great effect. You see, small sized creatures are immune to the effects of Evard's Black Tentacles. Medium-sized and larger creatures are not (though large and huge creatures get bonuses vs the grapple check; so medium sized, dex or high caster build targets are your targets).
Couple of things to note about EBT before your run off to exploit it. Limit is up to 24 tentacles when maximized, 36 tentacles when empowered (yup, that's how the script calculates it). The minimum targets is two, which means the maximum is 18 tentacles per target, even if only one target exists. Each tentacle will then roll a grapple check at CasterLevel+8+d20 vs BAB+STRMod+SizeMod+d20 for each tentacle. What does this mean? At level 20, it's going to be caster 28 + d20 vs generally 28 or less (or much less) + d20. While this advantage will diminish as you approach level 40, most higher level caster builds will have neither the STR or the BAB to get out of the way of all 18 tentacles. The number of "hits" are recorded, and the damage tallied, but the damage is applied at the end of the script. This is a big deal.
Say you get 15 hits out of those 18 in a mage duel. That's going to be an average of 7.5 damage per tentacle, times 15 hits, times 1.5 empowered damage, for a total of 168.75 damage that a medium sized target cannot prevent in any way, only lessen with DR. The damage is applied as bludgeoning damage, at damage_power_plus_two, but as it is applied all at once and ignores spell resistances, it's going to do blow right through an Epic Warding, Spell Mantle (and Greater Santuary) for 118.75 damage and force up to a DC 34 (40 with maxed ability bonus, easy to get with a ring of clear thought +6 and headband of intellect +6) fortitude save:
Now at this point, you might be asking me, why the heck are you even bothering with this spell when you have bibgy's and IGMS? Well, the first point is, both of those are susceptible to spell resistance/mantles or HiPs/concealment targeting loss. Bigby's spells also do not work well vs very high AC builds. EBT, on the other hand, is like a hand grenade. You only have to be "close enough". On a small battlefield, you can "wink and pepper". Using your gnome or halfling caster under haste, alternate between GS and EBT to lay down a thick mass so that your medium sized opponent can do nothing but die. The second point is, as this spell does not care about SR or mantles, it is a must have spell in any caster build with 17-26 caster levels. Oh yeah, and multiple Evards in the same area stack (not one mass damage, but for multiple effects). Lay down a minefield and pop an empowered Negative Energy Burst on the target just to reduce his grapple check by up to 5. Give him another for good measure as there is no saving throw vs the STR drain, only the damage.
In conclusion, you're not going to be slaying any dragons with this spell. But other high level caster builds and high dex builds with medium-sized races (the majority) will be pounded into goo with no defense except lots and lots of healing (and even then, very difficult concentration checks to make). As a halfling or Gnome you can run around in Evard's fields as if they were summer wheat. You aren't doing much with your level six spells offensively anyway (you're empowering/maxing IGMS), so why not give it a try? _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Edited By Vulcano on 04/06/06 09:00
Very interesting post, Vulcano. Thank you. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 04/06/06 08:58:17 (GMT) -- Vulcano
You see, small sized creatures are immune to the effects of Evard's Black Tentacles. Medium-sized and larger creatures are not
Where does it say that they are immune?
(very nice post btw)
Quote: Posted 04/07/06 15:13:35 (GMT) -- Bromium
Where does it say that they are immune?
Exactly, where? I'm looking at the spellscripts now, and it doesn't check for either the casters or the target's size, ever. It's also a d20 +5 roll to see if it hits (versus AC), it seems - no caster level included in it. Perhaps your server has a custom script for it? _________________ "And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose – from the first day of Christianity! – Why not rather from its last? – From today? – Revaluation of all values!"
Quote: Posted 04/06/06 08:58:17 (GMT) -- Vulcano
Lay down a minefield and pop an empowered Negative Energy Burst on the target just to reduce his grapple check by up to 5. Give him another for good measure as there is no saving throw vs the STR drain, only the damage.
AFAIK the STR drain effect from Negative Energy Burst does not stack, if that's what you meant. _________________ "And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose – from the first day of Christianity! – Why not rather from its last? – From today? – Revaluation of all values!"
Ray of Enfeeblement should stack with Negative Energy Burst, though.
You could also build a Wizard/Rogue with 10 or more rogue levels, and start off with a nice sneak Crippling Strike attack.
Lay down a minefield and pop an empowered Negative Energy Burst on the target just to reduce his grapple check by up to 5. Give him another for good measure as there is no saving throw vs the STR drain, only the damage.
AFAIK the STR drain effect from Negative Energy Burst does not stack, if that's what you meant.
I believe what he is saying is that, by reducing grapple check by up to 5, he's saying that the maximum strength drain a negative energy burst can have is -10. Thus, this would result in a -5. Not sure if an Empowered Negative Energy Burst would make this even higher, but in theory a 35th level Gnome Mechanic casting an Empowerd NEB should hit -10.
I can't speak for EBT's scripts, though. I thought the same as you. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Apparently, the Evard's scripts are getting an update for 1.67. Here is the new script, from 1.67 Beta 3 (blank module, no script changes or overrides, same as can be found be using nwexplorer to look at the script):
And the new spell description from dialogue.tlk entry 6542:
Quote: Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 4 Innate Level: 4 School: Conjuration Descriptor(s): Component(s): Verbal, Somatic Range: Medium Area of Effect / Target: Large, 1d4 Tentacles, + 1 / Caster Level (maximum 20) Duration: 1 Round / 2 Levels Additional Counter Spells: Save: Fortitude Special Spell Resistance: No
A field of thick, 10 feet long rubbery tentacles rises from the ground. Each is capable of grappling a target doing 1d6+4 points bludgeoning damage. If successful, the target must then make a Fortitude saving throw or become paralyzed by the grappling tentacle. The tentacles are randomly spread out over the area of effect allowing no more than half of the tentacles to reach a single target in any given round. The inability of the tentacles to target small creatures makes all small creatures completely immune to the spells effects.
I stumbled upon this in my epic testing grounds module running 1.67, which has one proving ground with a lot of outsiders in it (and lots of summoned succubi which cast layered EBT). My higher level human caster was getting fragged by the spell and I wondered why, so I opened the toolset and looked at it. Sure enough, after testing confirmed it, I started work on the gnome mechanic build to take advantage of it. I'll have that posted shortly in the other forum. Here it is: Click Here _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Edited By Vulcano on 04/07/06 22:59
Perhaps you should have stated you were speaking of the 1.67 version in your initial post :| _________________ "And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose – from the first day of Christianity! – Why not rather from its last? – From today? – Revaluation of all values!"
Perhaps you should have stated you were speaking of the 1.67 version in your initial post :|
Yeah, sorry, kinda stumbled upon it. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Great Info!
Too bad its not going to be too useful in epics with that limitation.
28+d20 vs BAB+STR+Size+d20 will net out 28 vs BAB (even casters have 20 at 40)+STR+Size _________________ Inactive for a while
But if the tentacles are medium and your opponent is too, then the size mod is a wash, leaving 28 + d20 vs BAB + STR + d20. The variability of the d20 roll means even in epic (assuming there's a separate roll for each tentacle), you'll have a good chance of some of them hitting against non-FTR, non-STR based opponents. _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
Medium sized opponents get no bonus in the script. Small size are immune. Large get +4 to their check, Huge get +8. So like I said, no dragon slaying, but with 18 seperate grapple rolls, even a 30 BAB dex build is going to take some hits (30+STR+d20 vs 28+d20). And since AoEs can stack in an area, multiple EBTs create a deadly minefield with no defense except STR and SIZE. After further testing, I can only conclude that this new script is too powerful. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Still just as bad in 1.67 beta 4. This will be the new IGMS if it isn't changed. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
new IGMS?
Worse. At least IGMS respects mantles and spell resistance. EBT does not. Globe of Invulnerability provides no protection, either. Only having high BAB/STR or being of small stature will help. All other epic casters will fall before halfling ES variants and gnome mechanics. Oh, and the effects of multiple EBTs stack. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
someone mentioned a new IGMS, wondered what it was
-DaMouse
Not litterally a new version of IGMS, but rather this being the "new" IGMS for munchkiness/ brokenness.
It's not just going to affect PvP here. I was doing a run through of the original NWN OC for 1.67 beta 4, and there are several bosses that cast this. Even polymorphed into Bear form for max Strength, I was getting roached. The only way I could kill them was to let them die on their own spell...which they invariably did. Needless to say, it was not a pleasant gaming experience. I probably should have shifted into Badger form, as it's size class is small. But other characters will not have this option. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Hard coded or can evards be disabled?
Quote: Posted 04/24/06 06:05:30 (GMT) -- D O'Brien123
Hard coded or can evards be disabled?
You can rescript it. I already did. As such, it's not much of a problem for server admins on PvP servers. But those who do not modify it, or those playing single player modules, will run into not much fun. Often. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
It's official. Same spell as I described from the beta. Start working on your halfling ES builds. Mine is Sorc 32/Rogue4/Blackguard4. Don't need the higher caster level as EBT ignores all protections. May as well take mad skillpoints. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Wow, very interesting. And a good find. I had no idea that NWN would include hentai scenes
On the one hand, it is looking like it's pretty ridiculously powerful now, but on another, it's good to see under-used spells like this one get some love. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
nTentacleGrappleCheck = d20() + nCasterLevel + 8;
I'm playing on a PW, and on level 15, as I understand it the DC on the grapplecheck should be my casterlevel + 8 + d20 = 24-43
But no matter how much I try I cant get the dc above 23. I also got the spell focus and greater spell focus in conjuration. which should bring my dc up with another 4 points making it reach between 28-47, right? So, my question is, have I missed something or have the creator of the PW changed the way the DC is calculated?
If the PW builder did something like overwrite the spellhook code, and recompiled all spell scripts, you'd have the old version of the script on that PW (because if an overwrite exists, it doesn't change on a patch unless the builder deletes it, and possibly opens the 1.67 now default version and recompiles for his hooks). Or, maybe the builder read my posts on EBT and made a pre-emptive rewrite. _________________ Vulcano's Bard Studio (in beta, 1.67). *Updated* Compose, play, and save your own bard music dynamically in game!
Edited By Vulcano on 05/23/06 09:02
Quote: Posted 05/23/06 09:01:14 (GMT) -- Vulcano
If the PW builder did something like overwrite the spellhook code, and recompiled all spell scripts, you'd have the old version of the script on that PW (because if an overwrite exists, it doesn't change on a patch unless the builder deletes it, and possibly opens the 1.67 now default version and recompiles for his hooks). Or, maybe the builder read my posts on EBT and made a pre-emptive rewrite.
could be, but I think if the the creator of the PW i'm playing on would have done something, she would also have done something to the massive damage. I'm taking out quite much anything on the server in one hit. also the spell isn't in the changelog on the server yet either. so it shouldn't have been changed if it hasn't been changed just a few days ago and she haven't had time to add it to the changelog for the server.
is there anyway to test this, without going through the whole official campaign?
Ok, a friend suggested to try it in HoU campaign as you start out on level 15 there, so I did. But the problem remains, there is no way to get a DC higher than 23, and it should be noted that I got no haks installed what so ever. Not even CEP.
Comments?
Quote: Posted 05/23/06 11:55:49 (GMT) -- Sten 87
Ok, a friend suggested to try it in HoU campaign as you start out on level 15 there, so I did. But the problem remains, there is no way to get a DC higher than 23, and it should be noted that I got no haks installed what so ever. Not even CEP.
Comments?
Well the code may have been changed with the final version. Vulcano posted this based on a beta IIRC. I don't have 1.67 so I can't check, sorry. _________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan
[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five. [...]
I believe the reason you are noticing an inconstistancy between the formula and the displayed DC is that your are using the "grapple check" formula used to determine whether a tentacle hits, the DC check the game is displaying is the "Paralyze Check", which is seperate from grapple and is a standard spell save check. Apologies for run-on sentence but it's late here
I believe the reason you are noticing an inconstistancy between the formula and the displayed DC is that your are using the "grapple check" formula used to determine whether a tentacle hits, the DC check the game is displaying is the "Paralyze Check", which is seperate from grapple and is a standard spell save check. Apologies for run-on sentence but it's late here 