Am growing more impressed with the power of the Bard build!

Was wondering though, which would be the more effective combat character?

The Bard 23/WM 7/RDD 10 or the Bard 8/RDD10/WM22?

I realize the WM heavy build would/should have the substantially higher AB.

But I was wondering with the proper Perform on the Bard-heavy one, would BardSong/CurseSong combo approach the AB of the WM build?

And with that, I was told the manual is wrong. What is the proper Perform level for a 23rd level BardSong.

TIA!

Joe
Quote: Posted 05/29/06 09:38:47 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

Am growing more impressed with the power of the Bard build!

Yay for you!

Quote: Posted 05/29/06 09:38:47 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

Was wondering though, which would be the more effective combat character?

It's good that you have come to seek our council. What, now, are your choices?

Quote: Posted 05/29/06 09:38:47 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

The Bard 23/WM 7/RDD 10 or the Bard 8/RDD10/WM22?

I'd say the latter if you're looking for a WM build. However, if you want a Bard, the former, and sub WM for something else. Check Cin Din's Skillful Minstrel, it's the best!

Quote: Posted 05/29/06 09:38:47 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

And with that, I was told the manual is wrong. What is the proper Perform level for a 23rd level BardSong.

65 ranks.
_________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan

[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five.
[...]

The big problem with Bard/RDD/WM builds is feat starvation. Check this out:

Bard(8), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Weapon Master(22)
Human, any non lawful

STR: 16 (38)
DEX: 13
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 11 (13)

Hitpoints: 472
Skillpoints: 256
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 23/22/23 (+9 vs Spells)
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 49 (melee), 28 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor): 25/30
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Dev Crit DC: 44 (46 with a good Bull's STR roll, 50 with capped STR)


SKILLS
Discipline 43(57), Intimidate 4(5), Lore 8(19), Perform 12(15), Spellcraft 42(45), Taunt 43(44), Tumble 40(41), UMD 39(40), 21 points leftover


LEVELING GUIDE
01: Bard(1): Dodge, Expertise
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Spear
04: Bard(4): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Mobility
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=19)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, (STR=20)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Spring Attack, (STR=22)
10: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
11: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
12: Red Dragon Disciple(7): STR+1, Whirlwind Attack, (STR=23), (CON=16)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(8)
14: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Spear
15: Weapon Master(2): Power Attack
16: Weapon Master(3): STR+1, (STR=24)
17: Bard(6)
18: Weapon Master(4): Cleave
19: Weapon Master(5)
20: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, (STR=25)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Cleave, (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): RDD: (Darkvision), (STR=29), (CHA=13)
23: Weapon Master(7)
24: Weapon Master(8): STR+1, Improved Critical: Spear, (STR=30)
25: Weapon Master(9)
26: Weapon Master(10)
27: Weapon Master(11): Overwhelming Critical: Spear
28: Weapon Master(12): STR+1, (STR=31)
29: Weapon Master(13): Devastating Critical: Spear
30: Weapon Master(14): Great Strength I, (STR=32)
31: Weapon Master(15)
32: Weapon Master(16): STR+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Spear, (STR=33)
33: Bard(7): Great Strength II, (STR=34)
34: Weapon Master(17)
35: Weapon Master(18)
36: Weapon Master(19): STR+1, Great Strength III, Armor Skin, (STR=36)
37: Weapon Master(20)
38: Weapon Master(21)
39: Weapon Master(22): Great Strength IV, Epic Prowess, (STR=37)
40: Bard(8): STR+1, (STR=38)


At the cost of 2 AB, get WP: Martial, RDD 10/WM 4 preepic, starting with 15 STR, 14 DEX, 12 CHA (since you have to give up a feat which can only be Great STR). I dunno whether it's worth it, spear's a good weapon (and you get the 1.5 STR modifier added to damage which in this case is +21!)

If you don't go the Dev Crit route, change PA, Cleave and Great Cleave for Blind Fight, KD/IKD; Overwhelming Crit for a feat of your choice (maybe Toughness for +40 HPs, or Great CHA for bonus spell slots or start with 15 STR, 12 CHA, 14 DEX and take Great STR instead of Ov Crit) and Dev Crit for Epic Toughness (no other choice there).

Cheers,
Kail
_________________
To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives
They fought for you and me
Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free

Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/29/06 11:25

Instead of Martial I'd get Exotic and use a Scythe In the alternative build you mentioned.

BTW I figure you could pretty easily add EDR3 to that build.

Not tested but I quickly calculated the feats

Bard 8/RDD 10/WM 22, Human

Human:
Expertise

WM:
EWF
EP
EDR
AS

1. Dodge
2. Mobility
3. Spring Attack
4. Exotic
5. WF
6. WWA
7. KD

1. GCON
2. GCON
3. GCON
4. EDR
5. EDR
6. GSTR
7. GSTR

16 +10 +02 +08 = 36
13 +00 +00 +00 = 13
16 +00 +03 +02 = 21
13 +00 +00 +02 = 15
08 +00 +00 +00 = 08
08 +00 +00 +02 = 10

HP 552
AC 33
AB 48
DR 9/-
_________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan

[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five.
[...]

Edited By FinneousPJ on 05/29/06 11:37

Good point Finn, I was thinking of battleaxe or warhammer to go with a shield for +3 AC (mundane shield), altough exotic offers dwarven waraxe which is slightly better than battleaxe in case one opts for single wielding. Warhammer is bludgeoging damage though, which is a good thing...

Cheers,
Kail
_________________
To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives
They fought for you and me
Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Quote: Posted 05/29/06 11:32:04 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Good point Finn, I was thinking of battleaxe or warhammer to go with a shield for +3 AC (mundane shield), altough exotic offers dwarven waraxe which is slightly better than battleaxe in case one opts for single wielding. Warhammer is bludgeoging damage though, which is a good thing...

Cheers,
Kail

Check my edit, too
_________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan

[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five.
[...]

Nice variant build Finn, when Dev Crit is dropped many options open up. Well done

Cheers,
Kail
_________________
To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives
They fought for you and me
Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Quote: Posted 05/29/06 11:46:17 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Nice variant build Finn, when Dev Crit is dropped many options open up. Well done

Cheers,
Kail

Yeah, I never liked playing "pure" WMs because they always die so easily DR might help a bit. Put personally I don't like builds that focus on WM and ultra-high AB Besides, Devastating Critical is boring (YMMV).
_________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan

[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five.
[...]

Quote: Posted 05/29/06 11:49:33 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

Yeah, I never liked playing "pure" WMs because they always die so easily DR might help a bit. Put personally I don't like builds that focus on WM and ultra-high AB Besides, Devastating Critical is boring (YMMV).

Well, I find me enemies dying easily at the hands of me Dwarven Master Slicer, but true, I've got EDR and care (and equipment) is needed when facing caster types.

Come on now, post us a leveling guide for the bard heavy variant

Cheers,
Kail
_________________
To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives
They fought for you and me
Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free

Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/29/06 14:29

Quote: Posted 05/29/06 11:54:47 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon


Come on now, post us a leveling guide for the bard heavy variant

Cheers,
Kail

Hm, the Bard 23/WM 7/RDD 10? I'm not sure it's worth it, though. Six feats wasted for WM, and only one bonus feat.

Anyways, there seem to already be a few. Results from pulse cap's build searcher:
Whirling Death Warlord Bard 23/WM 7/RDD 10 by Bad213Boy
Singing Dragon Dervish /Bard 23/WM 7/RDD 10 by Ithacan

And now that I checked, there are some WM-heavier version too. Results from pulse cap's build searcher:
Draconic Warlord /Bard 8/WM22 /RDD 10 by Bad213Boy
Red Baron /Bard 14/RDD 10/WM 16 by Bad213Boy
Smash Mouth /Bard 8/RDD 10/WM 22 by Bad213Boy
All-Offence Dragon Skald /Bard 11/WM 19/RDD 10 by Ithacan
Dragon Reaper /Bard 11/RDD 10/WM 19 by Ithacan
Spear Of Destiny /Bard 6/RDD 10/WM 24 by krsboss
Lord An – Dragon Nettle /Bard 8/RDD 10/WM 22 by vozhd
_________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan

[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five.
[...]

This is my take on it. Lower AB and NO DEV CRIT, I hate it, but the bard- and cursesong easily compensates.

Not bard-heavy, and not WM-heavy. Balanced.

Bard(14), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Weapon Master(16), Human

STR: 15 (34)
DEX: 13 (14)
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 13 (16)

01: Bard(1): Dodge, Expertise
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Proficiency Exotic
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=14)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Weapon Focus: Katana
07: Bard(6)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1, (STR=18)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(3): Mobility
10: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=20)
11: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
12: Bard(7): STR+1, Spring Attack, (STR=21)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
14: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=16)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(8): Whirlwind Attack
16: Weapon Master(1): STR+1, Weapon of Choice: Katana, (STR=22)
17: Weapon Master(2)
18: Weapon Master(3): Improved Critical: Katana
19: Weapon Master(4)
20: Weapon Master(5): STR+1, (STR=23)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Epic Weapon Focus: Katana, (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): RDD: (Darkvision), (STR=27), (CHA=15)
23: Weapon Master(6)
24: Weapon Master(7): CHA+1, Still Spell, (CHA=16)
25: Weapon Master(8)
26: Weapon Master(9)
27: Bard(8): Curse Song
28: Weapon Master(10): STR+1, (STR=28)
29: Weapon Master(11)
30: Weapon Master(12): Blind Fight
31: Weapon Master(13): Armor Skin
32: Bard(9): STR+1, (STR=29)
33: Weapon Master(14): Great Strength I, (STR=30)
34: Weapon Master(15)
35: Weapon Master(16): Epic Prowess
36: Bard(10): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=32)
37: Bard(11)
38: Bard(12)
39: Bard(13): Great Strength III, (STR=33)
40: Bard(14): STR+1, (STR=34)

Hitpoints: 448
Skillpoints: 268
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/21/23
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 45 (melee), 29 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 26/34

Concentration 43(46), Discipline 43(55), Intimidate 4(7), Lore 8(25), Perform 18(21), Spellcraft 23(26), Taunt 43(46), Tumble 40(42), UMD 42(45)

Spells:
5/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/3 3/1

So it will outperform the others spell-wise too.

Bard- and cursesong:
AB:+2 dmg:+3 saves:+1 hp:+16 AC:+3 skill:+2

Enjoy.
_________________
I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide.
I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.

I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Quote: Posted 05/30/06 06:58:28 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

Bard(14), Red Dragon Disciple(10), Weapon Master(16), Human

STR: 15 (34)
DEX: 13 (14)
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 13 (16)

Euh, start with 14 STR/DEX/CHA and you save an attribute point later in life.
_________________
"...
C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire
— Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!

Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse
La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace
Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos;
..."
Quote: Posted 05/30/06 11:28:51 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

Euh, start with 14 STR/DEX/CHA and you save an attribute point later in life.

*SMITE*

Next, please.

That opens up for something else, then, like epic Swede-slaying.
_________________
I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide.
I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.

I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.

Edited By Grimnir77 on 06/03/06 13:12

So .. what you are saying is a 8 Bard/10 RDD/22 WM will still be basically a better warrior type (higher AB/damage output) than a 23 Bard/10 RDD/7 WM, even though the latter build will have a more potent BardSong/CurseSong?

I think I read somewhere that the BardSong AC benefits stop at BardSong level 16, but not sure. Does greater Bard levels give a much better CurseSong too?

Just wondering what your all experience is (if any) with either type of Bard build..

Thanks,

Joe
Quote: Posted 06/03/06 09:31:57 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

I think I read somewhere that the BardSong AC benefits stop at BardSong level 16, but not sure. Does greater Bard levels give a much better CurseSong too?

Yes, it does. You get +1 AC at Bard25 and Bard30 IIRC. The Curse Song gets better along with Bard Song. You can expect the Curse Song to have the same numbers as you Bard Song, except that at level 11 you get +2 AC with Bard Song but Curse Song doesn't apply an AC penalty until 12 (Probably a mistake in the script)

Quote: Posted 06/03/06 09:31:57 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

Just wondering what your all experience is (if any) with either type of Bard build..

The fact is that for pure AB, the WM is better. If you think of effective AB and utility, the Bard is better. However, instead of 23 Bard/10 RDD/7 WM, I'd go with Bard 26/RDD 10/FTR 4.
_________________
"...
C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire
— Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!

Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse
La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace
Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos;
..." So, by "effective AB" of the more Bard-like build, you mean the combo of BardSong/CurseSong would help mitigate the "on paper" advantage of the of WM-heavy build?

Am intrigued a bit by the Bard-heavy build. I do like the fact your song lasts much longer (esp w/ Lasting Impression) and you get your full array of spells.

Only thing with your Bard 26/RDD 10/Fighter 4 build is that 1) as ye gets your level higher in Bard, the Perform requirement really starts to sky. And 2) I really, REALLY wanted to do a nasty STR-based Scythe-wielding monster anyway. (BAHAHAHAHAA!) So that's why I chose WM for the 5X Crit's.

One can only build finesse builds for so long.

Joe
Quote: Posted 06/03/06 12:48:46 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

So, by "effective AB" of the more Bard-like build, you mean the combo of BardSong/CurseSong would help mitigate the "on paper" advantage of the of WM-heavy build?

At least in a low magic environment.

Quote: Posted 06/03/06 12:48:46 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

Am intrigued a bit by the Bard-heavy build. I do like the fact your song lasts much longer (esp w/ Lasting Impression) and you get your full array of spells.

True enough.

Quote: Posted 06/03/06 12:48:46 (GMT) -- JettaJoe

Only thing with your Bard 26/RDD 10/Fighter 4 build is that 1) as ye gets your level higher in Bard, the Perform requirement really starts to sky. And 2) I really, REALLY wanted to do a nasty STR-based Scythe-wielding monster anyway. (BAHAHAHAHAA!) So that's why I chose WM for the 5X Crit's.

If you're going with a Scythe, I can understand why you want WM. However, you'll be picking pre-epic feats in epic levels with that build. Especially if you're going for Devastating Critical, it's really tight on feats.
_________________
"...
C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire
— Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!

Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse
La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace
Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos;
..."