I am looking to play a Half-Orc Cleric/Druid of Mielikki. The domains I chose were Good and Plant. The other available options were Animal and Travel, but I opted for the two with special types of Turning. I then slanted the build towards CHA in order to have lots of turning available, and then it made sense to me to take Divine Might and Divine Shield. What I want to know is whether this was a silly decision, and I ought to have stayed with higher WIS as I have in previous pure druid builds.

I am not at all familiar with playing a cleric, although I have played -with- a well played one but his chosen domains were Magic and Healing which I cannot use here. The world is mid-range magic (weapons available up to +5, lots of magical items of similar level) and there is little or no PvP. I have no feel for the monsters yet but they are custom in many instances, and some of the encounters are quite difficult. The world is Party PvP and meant to be played in groups although one is allowed to solo. I realize that the order of the feats is probably not optimal, but what I am looking for here is opinion on whether I am off on the wrong track to begin with, chasing this high CHA idea.

STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14 (20)
INT: 12
CHA: 12 (22)

Hitpoints: 440
Skillpoints: 169
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/29/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Fear: +2
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 26 (melee), 24 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/27
Spell Casting: Cleric(9),Druid(9)

Animal Empathy 13(19), Concentration 33(35), Heal 20(25), Lore 24(25), Spellcraft 39(40), Tumble 20(20)

01: Cleric(1): Extra Turning, Domain Good, Domain Plant
02: Druid(1)
03: Cleric(2): Blind Fight
04: Druid(2): CHA+1, (CHA=13)
05: Cleric(3)
06: Druid(3): Power Attack
07: Cleric(4)
08: Druid(4): WIS+1, (WIS=15)
09: Cleric(5): Divine Shield
10: Druid(5)
11: Cleric(6)
12: Druid(6): CHA+1, Extend Spell, (CHA=14)
13: Cleric(7)
14: Druid(7)
15: Cleric(8): Divine Might
16: Druid(8): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
17: Cleric(9)
18: Druid(9): Toughness
19: Cleric(10)
20: Druid(10): CHA+1, (CHA=15)
21: Cleric(11): Great Charisma I, (CHA=16)
22: Druid(11)
23: Cleric(12)
24: Druid(12): WIS+1, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=18)
25: Cleric(13)
26: Druid(13)
27: Cleric(14): Great Charisma II, (CHA=17)
28: Druid(14): CHA+1, (CHA=18)
29: Cleric(15)
30: Druid(15): Great Charisma III, (CHA=19)
31: Cleric(16)
32: Druid(16): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
33: Cleric(17): Great Charisma IV, (CHA=20)
34: Druid(17)
35: Cleric(18)
36: Druid(18): CHA+1, Great Charisma V, (CHA=22)
37: Cleric(19)
38: Druid(19)
39: Cleric(20): Armor Skin
40: Druid(20): WIS+1, (WIS=20)
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Slink's Burrow Online Half-orcs get a bonus to strength and a penalty to int and charisma. Since clerics don't get many skillpoints, have many charisma-dependent abilities (including turning, divine feats, and domain powers), and have a myriad of ways to buff their strength stat... half-orc is probably the worst race to play as a cleric.

However, clerics are so powerful it doesn't really matter in my opinion. I do however think that being a 20/20 cleric/druid is redundant since their spell lists are almost identical and you need caster levels (levels in a single caster class) to overcome spell resistances and get as many dice as possible out of uncapped spells.

Your levelling scheme will be very hard to play in the middle levels - with the way you are planning to level (presumably to avoid an exp penalty), you won't get level 9 spells in either class until you're almost level 40 and you'll be an epic character before you have access to Heal or Harm in either class - those are pretty important spells.

It's probably a lot smarter to just go cleric with the Plant and somethingorother domain, give up on Turning and Divine feats and instead focus on wisdom. If you really -have- to be a cleric/druid, be human to avoid the xp penalty (remember the half-orc stat adjusts are working against you here) and and take a level split like 25 cleric/14 druid/1 monk, grabbing dragon shape in the later epic levels.

Check the excellent Order of Jormundgandr build for insight into a cleric/druid/monk dragon build.
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Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience. Thanks for the input, Xylophone. I suspected that a CHA build was the wrong way to go, but I was intrigued by the two domains with unusual turning abilities. That's why I came here asking for a sanity check. *smiles*

The world in which I will be playing her uses Mielikki for the deity of their "civilized" Half-Orcs, so if I want a religious class Half-Orc I pretty much have to include druid in the build. I've played a Half-elf single-class druid up to level 30 and want to try something else. That's my reason for the split, and yes I am alternating classes to avoid the XP penalty. I had a Half-Orc paladin played somewhere else that I could transfer, but it seems to me that Mielikki wouldn't sensibly have paladins. I've also played a barbarian Half-Orc, appropriate for the other Half-Orc community on this world, and frankly drooling and smelling bad get old quickly for me. *laughs*

So back to the drawing board with high WIS as my target.

Thanks again.
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Slink's Burrow Online
Quote: Posted 06/16/06 04:22:51 (GMT) -- slinkletter

The world in which I will be playing her uses Mielikki for the deity of their "civilized" Half-Orcs, so if I want a religious class Half-Orc I pretty much have to include druid in the build.

Why? The FR Campaign Setting book explains that almost all Clerics of Mielikki multiclass with Druid or Ranger. I do not see a reason why you couldn't be a single-class Cleric or a Ranger, or a multi Cleric/Ranger.
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"...
C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire
— Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!

Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse
La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace
Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos;
..."
Quote: Posted 06/16/06 05:39:13 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

Quote: Posted 06/16/06 04:22:51 (GMT) -- slinkletter

The world in which I will be playing her uses Mielikki for the deity of their "civilized" Half-Orcs, so if I want a religious class Half-Orc I pretty much have to include druid in the build.

Why? The FR Campaign Setting book explains that almost all Clerics of Mielikki multiclass with Druid or Ranger. I do not see a reason why you couldn't be a single-class Cleric or a Ranger, or a multi Cleric/Ranger.

Ditto... I don't think you'd have to multiclass druid as a cleric. Or cleric as a druid.

Druid isn't nearly as overpowered as cleric, but it's still a good class in itself and a druid/barbarian half-orc would avoid the exp penalty, be a good meilikki worshipper, and get some nice abilities (raging when shifted, for example, and uncanny dodge to go along with your shifted forms). And druids don't need charisma, and get more skillpoints per level than clerics so the int penalty doesn't hurt quite as much.

Of course, cleric/barbarian would combine the cleric's overpoweredness with the barbarian's extra speed, free martial proficiency, and uncanny dodge as well.
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Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.

Edited By Xylophone on 06/16/06 08:26

The short answer to why I wanted to play a cleric cross-classed with a druid is: because I want to.

The longer answer is that I feel that a cleric of a nature goddess should include druid. I allow as how ranger would fit also. The world in which she will be played is aggressively non-Faerun, so Faerun literature is not the final say there anyway.

I don't want to play a barbarian. I already have a STR-based Elven ranger with an INT of 8 who only speaks Animal, with a CHA of 8 which means she smells and acts like a bear. I don't want to spend any more time than I already do playing characters who say "yous sit on mine hat", or the like, which is the recommended level of literacy for the Half-Orcs in the barbarian village on the world where this character will be played.

The cleric/ranger cross is interesting and I considered it although rangers are almost as common as rogues in multiclasses. The question would seem to come down to whether I want her to be stronger in melee or stronger in magic. Either way she gets a companion, but the druid magic is stronger than the ranger magic at the cost of wielding the two weapons.

As for Dragonshape, I could not care less about it. Shapechange gives me dragon if I want it, but should a druid of good alignment take the form of evil dragons? I feel not.

I have never seen Harm used in anything but PvP, and that is not an issue here. I am not sure why this has been so. I don't claim that no one uses it for PvM anyplace, but I have not seen that.

The following assume 40 in Spellcraft and 20 in Tumble.

Cleric, uses mace (or scimitar at cost of one feat), class skill Concentration, but very little left over.

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14 (34)
INT: 10
CHA: 12

Hitpoints: 440
Skillpoints: 86
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/34/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 31 (melee), 25 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/27
Spell Casting: Cleric(9)

Cleric/Druid, uses scimitar, class skill Concentration

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14 (30)
INT: 10
CHA: 12

Hitpoints: 440
Skillpoints: 126
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/34/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Fear: +2
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 30 (melee), 24 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 14/25
Spell Casting: Cleric(9),Druid(9)

Cleric/Ranger, uses a scimitar and a mace, class skills both Concentration and Discipline

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14 (30)
INT: 10
CHA: 12

Hitpoints: 480
Skillpoints: 126
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/30/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8
BAB: 27
AB (max, naked): 33 (melee), 27 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 14/25
Spell Casting: Cleric(9),Ranger(4)

Cleric/Barbarian, class skills both Concentration and Discipline

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 14 (30)
INT: 10
CHA: 12

Hitpoints: 520
Skillpoints: 126
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/30/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +7, Traps: +5
BAB: 27
AB (max, naked): 33 (melee), 27 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 14/25
Spell Casting: Cleric(9)
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Slink's Burrow Online

Edited By slinkletter on 06/16/06 20:13

cleric/druid is the ultimate healer build. you max one stat (wis) and get two full spellbooks of heals. sure offensive spells will be less effective against sr, but you'll be a very accomplished healer and buffer. you can throw in dragon shape too if you so desire.

half-orc isn't ideal, but it is workable. for max healing prowess take silent spell to shift mass heals to lvl 9 on cleric spellbook.

It will be much easier to focus on one class first instead of alternating. I'd suggest getting at least 15 cleric or druid before adding the 2nd class. you will have an xp penalty, but that is not the end of the world. it will make playing less fun to alternate than to take the xp penalty IMHO. Barbarians don't have to be strength builds (in fact, if you're a shifter/barbarian or druid/barbarian, odds are you don't want to be a strength build anyway - almost every shifted form overrides strength). Barbarian is actually quite good for its Uncanny Dodge ability - it's the only class that has a warrior AB progress and free martial proficiency that gets Uncanny Dodge.

And raging is a way for dex builds to deal extra damage without sneak attacks - thus barbarian arguably synergizes better with dex builds than strength ones.

Uncanny Dodge is good. It's one of the more underestimated and oft-overlooked abilities going. Even if you don't have a high dex score, being caught flatfooted can be a very Bad Thing. And if you're shifting as a druid, many forms will increase your dex and/or grant dodge AC bonuses that Uncanny Dodge will benefit.

The other benefit is that you can rage after shifting, which will increase your shifted form's strength (thus improving your hp, AB, and damage when shifted - which is when you need it). This is especially nice for the druid, because the druid wildshapes don't merge weapons or items and as a result it's highly unlikely you'll have +12 to your strength when you shift.

In either case it's unlikely you'd need, or want, to take more than 4 to 8 levels of Barbarian in a barb/druid caster/shifting build, unless you want to go with Terrifying Rage later. Something like 36 druid/4 barbarian is quite workable though, or 32 druid/7 barbarian/1 monk if you are really shift-happy - sure your rage won't be the talk of the town but you'll have many of the barbarian class's benefits, be a powerful caster-druid, and get quite a lot of mileage out of shapeshifting.

Not taking dragon shape is a choice you can make, of course, but it's a very powerful ability and particularly in a 20/20 cleric/druid build will give you a soloing capability at later levels that you will probably not have without it. This being the epic builder's guild, we're suggesting ways to make your build better and stronger, not more suited to your roleplaying preferences or your server's background (both of which we don't know until you tell us hehe).

In either event, if you insist on cleric/druid, try 26 cleric/14 druid (nets you 2 cleric epic bonus feats and puts your cleric spells over the dispelling cap), focus on wisdom only so you can at least pick dragon shape later once you've been playing a while and may change your mind about it, and accept the exp penalty you'll get in return for playability through the middle levels.

Specifically as regards exp penalties - yeah, they aren't attractive, but it's better to take the penalty and have a character that is capable of getting exp in the first place, than to use a level scheme that avoids a penalty but keeps getting killed. Having to respawn/resurrect often will almost surely cost you more exp in the long run than a multiclassing penalty will, because it will also probably waste valuable time, equipment, and gold.

And finally - harm, it doesn't get as much use in PvE because it's a single target spell and it's more efficient for good cleric builds to use buffed melee or area spells to handle crowds, but it's still a very good spell to have ready for enemies that are giving you problems.
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Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience. That is true, this is the Epic Builder's Guild, and I respect the expertise here. I have downloaded quite a few of the builds and learned a lot from them. That is why I asked the question as I did: given that I will be playing a 50:50 druid/cleric build, is using a CHA build silly. The answer was yes, plus you suggested that I consider the ranger as an alternative to the druid and I thought that was worth considering. In my opinion that qualifies as advice on how to make my chosen class combination stronger and better, and I thank you for that.

Perhaps I will find that I really need the dragonshape later on. If so, I have time to get it, as you say.

I have played her to level 6 already, with the domains of Good and Travel, and she is fun to play. I have already seen what you mean about the slower acquisition of spells. I have decided that I actually like that because it is giving me time to explore spells I skipped trying when I was using pure class builds. Having extra buffs and healing spells will be great. My only regret is that her companion will only advance half as fast as normal, but she will have lots of summonings. The world she is in is not short on gold, so the only real penalty to dying is XP loss if you are alone. My answer in this case is the same as it was for my pure druid: if it hurts to do that, don't do it.

Thanks again for the help.
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Slink's Burrow Online