More accurately I mean "Is discipline woth taking in dex-based characters?". I recently read Grimnir's latest build (Harbinger of sorrow), and he said this statement (although, I may be quoting it in the wrong context):
Now while this maybe only referring to this build (seeing as it isn't a dex-based fighter, and is based around buffing, cursing and hiding), it would still be nice to know if anyone else shares this view.
I'm currently working on a new dex-based character, who will eventually have 42 ranks in discipline, but only 13 str.
I won't go into to much detail (until I post it that is), but seeing as the character has rogue levels (and has a few other useful skills that are untouched) would these points be better spent somewhere else?
To any repliers, just try to take this post one-step-at-a-time .
His point is that Discipline checks happen against the opponent's attack roll. In almost every environment, at level 40, everyone will have (a lot) higher unmodified attacks than 43. Ergo, a Disc of 43 is the same as no discipline, since you'll always fail the check anyway Especially when we calculate buffs etc., and add the attack roll. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Edited By FinneousPJ on 06/19/06 10:55
I understood what he meant fin (thanks anyway), I was just asking for other people's opinions. So I take it then that you agree with Grim?
I'm not disagreeing with Grim or anything (he hasn't steered me wrong yet), I'm just contemplating rebuilding a character and it would be nice to know where people stand on value of discipline in dex-based characters.
Edited By Big Meph on 06/19/06 11:01
It can be worth it, particularly if you have +discipline equipment available and/or use +str equipment as well.
You might not be easily able to resist attacks from extremely high-AB characters or on very high-magic worlds, but you should be able to resist attacks from moderate AB characters (like many sneaks and monks) at least some of the time if you have +discipline gear.
Spellcraft might be a better skill investment if you have limited points and can't take both, but 43 discipline isn't the same as no discipline since 43 discipline + 6 from buffed strength + X in discipline equipment is a lot higher and more likely to be helpful than 0 discipline + buffs and gear. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Spellcraft might be a better skill investment if you have limited points and can't take both, but 43 discipline isn't the same as no discipline since 43 discipline + 6 from buffed strength + X in discipline equipment is a lot higher and more likely to be helpful than 0 discipline + buffs and gear.
Yes, but usually my dexer can't afford boosting STR - they tend to prefer boosting DEX. Then again, I prefer low magic, not high, and I know some worlds might give you +12 on all but one stat for example. That's a whole different story. But you're right, with f.ex. Rings of Disc +5 you can make it worthwhile but you have to ask if it's worth not having f.ex. Rings of Protection +5 or something else. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Spellcraft might be a better skill investment if you have limited points and can't take both, but 43 discipline isn't the same as no discipline since 43 discipline + 6 from buffed strength + X in discipline equipment is a lot higher and more likely to be helpful than 0 discipline + buffs and gear.
Yes, but usually my dexer can't afford boosting STR - they tend to prefer boosting DEX. Then again, I prefer low magic, not high, and I know some worlds might give you +12 on all but one stat for example. That's a whole different story. But you're right, with f.ex. Rings of Disc +5 you can make it worthwhile but you have to ask if it's worth not having f.ex. Rings of Protection +5 or something else.
Well since you get to wear two rings, if it's in ring form I'd wear both protection +5 and discipline +5, unless I was getting my deflection AC from another source (cloak, spell). Then I might well wear two rings of discipline +5 or something.
But depending on the needs of the environment it's quite logical to carry different items to use at different times (reflex save and elemental resist gear for fighting dragons, fort and will save gear for fighting undead, etc).
So I don't see a problem with putting your +disc stuff on specifically to PvP or fight NPC opponents who use disarm or the like. In PvP terms, I'd rather forego some other gear than be knocked down by a sneak attacker (and probably die before I can stand up). _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
It is a little bit out of context, if you read the whole phrase I elaborate on ways to get it above 43. But I stand firm on my point, 43 is a waste. Many arcane caster builds state it as a strongpoint,(like the Exalted) but it's truly only a waste. If you can raise it above 43, then that's another matter. But it is NOT likely for Arcane casters and DEX-builds to raise STR much, and discipline items usually have to give way to other items.
Discipline in the Harbinger of sorrow is only worth it if you either take ESF:Discipline or get good boosts from items. He even has the bardsong to help, so ESF + bardsong would make it worthwhile.
43 points in discipline= totally wasted. If not, please tell me what good they do in a high AC dex-build? _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
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Well in theory if you have a very high AC for any reason, there's little point in having the discipline skill because anyone who can beat your AC with an attack roll at -4 will surely beat your discipline check unless it's phenomenally high.
But there are the 20s to consider. Ie, people who can't hit you normally because of your high AC can still hit you on a 20. And if they can't hit you without rolling a 20, it doesn't matter what penalties they incur so there's no point in them NOT spamming you with knockdowns (which will make you easier to hit if one lands).
But that doesn't mean you won't be able to resist that kind of KD attacking with a lower discipline. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
For a dex-build that has Epic Dodge, generally I don't think discipline is worth it. The reason is that your AC tends to be >63, so any KD attempt that hits you will overcome the discipline check. Having ED means that you are unlikely to be hit on a natural 20, since it actually takes 2 of them in a single round to succeed (rare).
Now, some possible exceptions: 1 - You have an alternate shape with high strength (i.e. DS). Then even though it may useless in your normal form, it will be good in the alternate shape. 2 - You have access to powerful discipline-boosting items, i.e. Epic Gloves of Discipline (+30 to discipline). 3 - You are in a low magic setting where even a dex-based character can't get their AC much above 50 (i.e. your discipline roll will have a chance to succeed against rolls that can hit your AC). 4 - You are dex-based, but don't have ED, and/or face mobs of weaker enemies who will generate enough 20's to be annoying.
Even if one of those is the case, I recommend taking ESF: discipline, and perhaps SF: discipline if you want to make it useful (those 2 can get you to 56, with buffed Str that's 62, which is high enough to be useful if your AC is less than 82).
And most of my dex-based character do buff both Str and Dex. They usually have UMD, so get +3 Dex from monk boots, and wear gauntlets of dex to get to +10, with a potion/scroll of Cat's Grace to guarantee max. That leaves the belt slot open for a Belt of Giant Str, and a potion/scroll of Bull's Str can max that as well. Now, if you are in a low-magic setting where monk boots don't buff dex at all and gauntlets are limited to +3, then you would want the belt as well, but if gauntlets go to +5 or more, and the monk boots give you 3, you are generally better off with a belt of str than agility.
TM
Thanks for the posts everyone. And to TM, the build WILL have epic dodge, but I'm boosting CHA in favour of STR (it's a dex-based paladin).
Now that that's out of the way, with a low STR (13) dex-based paladin build, which skill would be better to take out of Open lock, and Disable trap and possibly spellcraft? (obviously this build is part rogue)
Current skills are: Hide Move Silently Tumble Spot Search Use Magic Device
Edited By Big Meph on 06/20/06 02:35
Quote: Posted 06/20/06 02:25:26 (GMT) -- Big Meph
Thanks for the posts everyone. And to TM, the build WILL have epic dodge, but I'm boosting CHA in favour of STR (it's a dex-based paladin).
Now that that's out of the way, with a low STR (13) dex-based paladin build, which skill would be better to take out of Open lock, and Disable trap and possibly spellcraft? (obviously this build is part rogue)
Current skills are: Hide Move Silently Tumble Spot Search Use Magic Device
I'd dump Spot for Listen (my personal preference). Is this for a specific environment, or a generic build for the Guild? If the former, Concentration is good if you're running into Taunters a lot.
Otherwise, I'd perhaps look at some in Disable and some in Open Lock. I'd say Spellcraft is not terribly necessary since you'll have good saves due to high CHA anyway. _________________ This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
It is just a generic build, with no specific modifications necessary. Why do you prefer to take listen over spot? Don't stealther's generally have a lower Hide skill due to the +2 synergy bonus between Hide and Move Silently?
Taunt is a good skill if you need more AB.
Open Lock and Disable Trap are fine general purpose skills.
Spot also helps if people try to pick your pockets. _________________ The curve is more powerful than the sword -- BG courtesan
Quote: Posted 06/20/06 05:16:56 (GMT) -- Big Meph
It is just a generic build, with no specific modifications necessary. Why do you prefer to take listen over spot? Don't stealther's generally have a lower Hide skill due to the +2 synergy bonus between Hide and Move Silently?
Listen allows you to 'see' through doors and walls, as well as detect invisible creatures. Spot doesn't. There are also more spells that boost Hide than MS.
There is no synergy bonus between Hide and MS. Only between Disable and Set traps. _________________ This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Sorry about the late reply. I was trying to in the morning then my computer suddenly crashed and refused to start-up, and I only got it working again just now (12 hours later).
You were right, BTW about the move silently bonus (although somehow I doubt you were waiting on the edge of your seat for hours on end, just for me to confirm what you already knew ).
I confused it with the halfling "Skill affinity: Move Silently" bonus .
Edited By Big Meph on 06/21/06 09:42
Problem with listen is that sneaks still get a sneak/death attack in when you hear them while they don't from spot....listen is great for bards thanks to amplify and clairaudience boosting it to +30 and song boosting it further but if you ain't a bard I'd favour spot over listen personally.
As for discipline, it's not generally that useful unless you can get it > your AC...though making sure that Mr. Low-AB-Monk can't KD you on a 20 or when you're flatfooted (think WoF) is always a nice thing. If I go for discipline in any build I always make sure to take ESF unless REALLY pushed for feats.
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His point is that Discipline checks happen against the opponent's attack roll. In almost every environment, at level 40, everyone will have (a lot) higher unmodified attacks than 43. Ergo, a Disc of 43 is the same as no discipline, since you'll always fail the check anyway 
Especially when we calculate buffs etc., and add the attack roll.
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