Ok, it's been a year and a half since last i played NWN or did any building so I got some questions that are most likely basic but I've lost my book where all the info is and with dial-up connection i can relly take me so much time to look around this pages for info so:
The plan was to make a ranger8/assassin10/shadowdancer2 build. In the beginning, it's not meant to be epic but i may continue there after a little work and planning.
If i chose elf, as I have so far, will i get any exp penalties with two prestige classes or doesn't that apply to the exp penalty rules, never really got the quite..
After a short calculation, I made that the total pre-epic AB will be above 16 (ranger 8+ assasin 7,5 and SD 1 =16,5)so I'll get all four attacks each turn.
Benefits: HIPS, good sneak attack, good hide and move silently, good tumble, good AC.
The starting stats would be: str: 14 dex: 17 con: 11 (think that was it...) wis: 14 (this gives me lv1 ranger spells and enables me to use the assasin spells too, but mabye i can use them anyways..?) int: 10 (mabye it was 12, cant remember quite...) cha: 10 (i'd rather this be 8 or even 6 but when playing solo you need some ability to interact with NPCs and merchants, but 6 for pvp)
this gives me low damage on regular hits with so low strength, may consider increasing it to 16 on the cost of cha. Feats: WF,W-finesse (using rapiers for high critrange and still being light weapon so that i'll benefit from this feat),Knockdown (need this early), dodge, mobility, blind fight (using the darkness spell remember), dirty fighting. these are the pre-epic feats, should you have any more left you can put it into disarm (or did that require 13 int..?) or IKD or whatever you feel like.
Skills: Hide, Move silently, tumble. the rest doesnt really matter, but put them into parry, heal or dicipline, or whatever you feel most important to you. Put them into animal empathy if you're fighting peaople who summon, nothing is more fun than dominating a summoned pet from a struggling cleric.
So to summarize: - Will i get any exp penalties when keeping my assasin and ranger levels even, and putting in the two SD levels at about lv 12 or 13? - Should I do something to my ability scores? - Would it benefit me to choose ftr instead of ranger so that i'll get WS? This will give me more feats wich i need to get the dual wield feats, but the low skillpoints and not hide and MS as class skills will make it hell to get enough for assassin. - elf or human? i prefer elf for dex bonus and immunities and bonuses and all that.
all help will be appreciated.
Nice to see another Son of the Northern Darkness here
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
Ok, it's been a year and a half since last i played NWN or did any building so I got some questions that are most likely basic but I've lost my book where all the info is and with dial-up connection i can relly take me so much time to look around this pages for info so:
Welcome back to the game, then!
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
The plan was to make a ranger8/assassin10/shadowdancer2 build. In the beginning, it's not meant to be epic but i may continue there after a little work and planning.
I'd suggest Ranger 9 for the free Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Dropping whichever, either a Asn or SD level is quite alright
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
If i chose elf, as I have so far, will i get any exp penalties with two prestige classes or doesn't that apply to the exp penalty rules, never really got the quite..
No, you will not get any XP penalty.
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
After a short calculation, I made that the total pre-epic AB will be above 16 (ranger 8+ assasin 7,5 and SD 1 =16,5)so I'll get all four attacks each turn.
That's correct, yes.
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
The starting stats would be: str: 14 dex: 17 con: 11 (think that was it...) wis: 14 (this gives me lv1 ranger spells and enables me to use the assasin spells too, but mabye i can use them anyways..?) int: 10 (mabye it was 12, cant remember quite...) cha: 10 (i'd rather this be 8 or even 6 but when playing solo you need some ability to interact with NPCs and merchants, but 6 for pvp)
Well, I'd make him human actually, STR based. 15 STR/14 DEX/14 CON/14 INT/12 WIS/8 CHA, ending with 20 STR at level 20.
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
this gives me low damage on regular hits with so low strength, may consider increasing it to 16 on the cost of cha.
See above.
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
Feats: WF,W-finesse (using rapiers for high critrange and still being light weapon so that i'll benefit from this feat),Knockdown (need this early), dodge, mobility, blind fight (using the darkness spell remember), dirty fighting. these are the pre-epic feats, should you have any more left you can put it into disarm (or did that require 13 int..?) or IKD or whatever you feel like.
Yeah, KD is a must for an Assassin. You won't be needing Finesse with the STR based human Dirty Fighting isn't worth a feat, take Toughness. I suggest you dual-wield two light weapons to get more Death Attacks.
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
Skills: Hide, Move silently, tumble. the rest doesnt really matter, but put them into parry, heal or dicipline, or whatever you feel most important to you. Put them into animal empathy if you're fighting peaople who summon, nothing is more fun than dominating a summoned pet from a struggling cleric.
Yeah, it's all good.
Quote: Posted 07/25/06 20:00:12 (GMT) -- Groml
So to summarize: - Will i get any exp penalties when keeping my assasin and ranger levels even, and putting in the two SD levels at about lv 12 or 13? - Should I do something to my ability scores? - Would it benefit me to choose ftr instead of ranger so that i'll get WS? This will give me more feats wich i need to get the dual wield feats, but the low skillpoints and not hide and MS as class skills will make it hell to get enough for assassin. - elf or human? i prefer elf for dex bonus and immunities and bonuses and all that.
all help will be appreciated.
And to think I already answered those... Damn! Well, except the Ftr thing -- you can't meet the skill prequisites for Asn or SD with Ftr. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
As Finn suggested, go with 9 RGR levels. Drop Assn to 9 levels. This will still provide +16 BAB for the full attack routine, you'll keep Evasion from level 2 SD, and you won't lose out on anything from dropping the Assn level except an extra +1 on saves vs poisons.
I also like the STR route, but DEX can be viable as well. _________________ This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
I will just say hello and welcome to a fellow Norwegian. It's not like we dominate the guild. Though I've had the company of Finn here to keep up some much needed Nordic Power. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Ok, thanks alot folks!
Just a few more things that popped into my mind: -The feat Stealthy (gives +4 to hide and MS skill checks) is it worth it or should i just go with epic skill focus on epic levs or just screw it? -My plan was to get enough ranger levels to gain bane of enemies, but that will cost me the opportunity to gain 10d6 death attack... But with the improved sneak attack feat on epic levels that may not be needed. -If i go strength based human, I'll get alot less hide and other dex skills (and i lose the elf bonuses to dex skills), that this build sorta rely heavily on but I could make up for this by taking bout 8 great dex feats in epic levels. -And Wis 12 makes me lose the ranger spells (tho they're not THAT good, except for the camouflage and ultravision) but i'll be able to use assassin spells with only 12 wis right?
Thanks so far, I'll start making the full build tomorrow, it's a little late now...
Edited By Groml on 07/27/06 23:54
Quote: Posted 07/27/06 23:53:21 (GMT) -- Groml
Ok, thanks alot folks!
Just a few more things that popped into my mind: -The feat Stealthy (gives +4 to hide and MS skill checks) is it worth it or should i just go with epic skill focus on epic levs or just screw it?
It gives you +2 Hide and MS. Probably not wortrh it. The Epic focus might be, especially in a STR build.
Quote: -My plan was to get enough ranger levels to gain bane of enemies, but that will cost me the opportunity to gain 10d6 death attack... But with the improved sneak attack feat on epic levels that may not be needed.
It would become Ranger21/SD1/assassin 18 right? Still 9d6 sneak attack. Quite decent along with Boe and the STR path if chosen.
Quote: -If i go strength based human, I'll get alot less hide and other dex skills (and i lose the elf bonuses to dex skills), that this build sorta rely heavily on but I could make up for this by taking bout 8 great dex feats in epic levels.
Hm, in a STR path I wouldn't waste so much feats on Grrat dexes. A few to fill up padded armor perhaps, but take Epic skill focus Hide/MS to compensate the Dex loss to skills.
Quote: -And Wis 12 makes me lose the ranger spells (tho they're not THAT good, except for the camouflage and ultravision) but i'll be able to use assassin spells with only 12 wis right?
12 WIS let's you access 1st lvl ranger spells just as quickly as 14 WIS and let's you cast lvl 2 ranger spells. I would aim for 14 WIS if I planned to get 21 ranger levels. 12 WIS if I aimed for 9-10 ranger. The assassin spells are not dependant upon any stat at all.
Quote: Thanks so far, I'll start making the full build tomorrow, it's a little late now...
We look forward to it. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoGDo not take Improved Sneak Attack if you don't have at least 1 Rogue level or 4 BG levels. ISA does not work with a build that has only Assn Death Attack.
Grimnir: my neighbor's Norwegian and has had family visiting for the past 3 months. Their family is leaving to go home tomorrow (they're from Senja in the north of Norway). It's been a veritable viking invasion here. I'll miss the conversation, laughs, and the sessions of Aquavit! _________________ This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 06:26:56 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Grimnir: my neighbor's Norwegian and has had family visiting for the past 3 months. Their family is leaving to go home tomorrow (they're from Senja in the north of Norway). It's been a veritable viking invasion here. I'll miss the conversation, laughs, and the sessions of Aquavit!
I remember you spoke about the "bløtkake". And yes, the aquavit often leads to conversations and laughs. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Even a STR based Ranger can get very respectable stealth skills with only ESF: MS. If we imagine he's using light armor with no ACP and has maxed skills and 14 DEX, his basee score for hide is 45 and MS 55. Now, cast Empowered Cat's, Camouflage, One with the Land and Mass Camouflage. You get 72 Hide/62 MS. Not many non-ranger DEXers can get there (but they can with Stealthy, about 38 DEX and SFs). _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Edited By FinneousPJ on 07/28/06 10:13
Ah, ok, I'll get to work on it rigth away.
Durned...
I'd just tested the entire build through to see what I needed and wanted and such, then I started recording everything down piece by piece, making the build again from the bottom. The offcourse when I was about to save it at lv 30, notepad screwed up and I lost all my work... I'm going out now so either I fix it tonight or you'll see it tomorrow. Tried with int 12 and Wis 14 first time, second time with int 14 i see why that was the better choice, forgot how many nice feats that needs 13 int...
But im planning to take KD, IKD, Disarm (cuz its so cunning), IDA, Blind Fight, Armour Skin, Epic Prowess, 2 great dex, (E)WF, imp crit (15-20 crit roll , you dont get overwhelming with ranger now do you..?), epic skill focus in hide and MS. Was thinking epic will if i got a spare feat since the saves of this build are... awful.
Skills: Hide, MS, Tumble, Use magic device, search/spot (solo or pvp) and dicipline/parry, all maxed. For questing you could always put a skillpoint into Animal empathy just to activate it altho your skill check will still be 0 cuz of cha modifier. (there are some hidden quests at least in SoU that require it).
Updating soon, I hope... PS: t'was too late for editing the previous post.
Finally I think I got it all right.
21 A10 EWF 22 R11 23 A11 (Epic Assassin) 24 R12 Epic Prowess +str 25 A12 26 R13 27 A13 Armour Skin 28 R14 +str 29 A14 Epic Skill focus: MS 30 R15 IDA, FE 31 A15 32 R16 +str 33 A16 Epic Skill focus: Hide 34 R17 35 A17 36 R18 Improved initiative +str/dex 37 R19 38 R20 FE 39 R21 Bane of enemies 40 A18 If you chose dex at lv 36 you could be wise to get great dex I here to get another bonus point to dex, or if you chose str you'd be best of with superior initiative. Your choise really, +8 to initiative rolls or +1 to dex skill checks. I chose Str and initiative so thats how the skillfigures are gonna look like.
Skills: Dicipline: 42 (49) Hide: 43 (59) MOve Silently: 43 (59) Parry: 42 (44) some say this skill is a waste but with not to much hps to show for its nice to have the opportunity to fend off 4 attacks per turn. Search/Spot: 43 (45) chose the one you want or take both and drop parry. Tumble: 43 (45) Use magic device: 43 (42)
Left: 4 (I put them into heal but for questing it's smart to put one into Animal empathy just to activate it, some quests need it, not a high skillcheck, just poin in the skill.)
Naked AC: 22 333 hps
mundane rapiers: +33/+28/+23/+18
critroll: 15-20 x2
Saves Fort: 22 Ref: 23 Will: 17
BAB: 26 Unfortunately you'll only get the first two ranger level spells due to only 12 wis so you wont get mass camouflage and greater magic fang unless you sacrefice 2 points in strength or two epic feats (or one of each). So the max possible Hide will be somewhat less but still there are few without true seeing that will know youre there until you jump them.
Now Cin said that improved sneak attack only worked on sneak attack and not death attack, thats the only reason I did not chose it at lv 40. With Camouflage, One with the Land and Cats grace you will get Hide 74 and MS 64.
21 A10 EWF 22 R11 23 A11 (Epic Assassin) 24 R12 Epic Prowess +str 25 A12 26 R13 27 A13 Armour Skin 28 R14 +str 29 A14 Epic Skill focus: MS 30 R15 IDA, FE 31 A15 32 R16 +str 33 A16 Epic Skill focus: Hide 34 R17 35 A17 36 R18 Improved initiative +str/dex 37 R19 38 R20 FE 39 R21 Bane of enemies 40 A18 If you chose dex at lv 36 you could be wise to get great dex I here to get another bonus point to dex, or if you chose str you'd be best of with superior initiative. Your choise really, +8 to initiative rolls or +1 to dex skill checks. I chose Str and initiative so thats how the skillfigures are gonna look like.
Okay, since you're going for Bane of Enemies, get 14 Wis. When I suggested 12 Wis, I thought you were still going for 9 Ranger or so.
Drop Disarm for Toughness/save booster.
Get a light weapon instead of rapier to avoid extra dual-wielding penalty.
What's IDA on level30
Drop ESF: Hide, it's unnecessary.
Improved/Superior Initiative are a fine choice for Ranger, IMO. But you should consider getting something like Great STR + Epic Reflexes. +4 Reflex saves isn't bad, and GSTR'd let you finish STR at 26.
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:55:49 (GMT) -- Groml
Skills: Dicipline: 42 (49) Hide: 43 (59) MOve Silently: 43 (59) Parry: 42 (44) some say this skill is a waste but with not to much hps to show for its nice to have the opportunity to fend off 4 attacks per turn. Search/Spot: 43 (45) chose the one you want or take both and drop parry. Tumble: 43 (45) Use magic device: 43 (42)
You can only fend off three attacks per round ever with parry. It's broken, and it is a waste. If you want more defense, get Improved Expertise.
You only need 40 Tumble.
Get 41 UMD so it's 40 modified.
Get Set Trap and at least one rank in Disable Trap.
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:55:49 (GMT) -- Groml
mundane rapiers: +33/+28/+23/+18
As I said, get Short Swords to boost AB to 35.
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:55:49 (GMT) -- Groml
Unfortunately you'll only get the first two ranger level spells due to only 12 wis so you wont get mass camouflage and greater magic fang unless you sacrefice 2 points in strength or two epic feats (or one of each).
Actually, you need only drop STR by one point to 14. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Edited By FinneousPJ on 07/29/06 10:34
And for the one starting with 14/14/14/14/14/8 attributes, drop EFS: Hide for GSTR and Improved Init for GSTR and get Epic Ref on Asn18.
Cheers _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Human Any/evil
Naked AC: 22 not sure of the hps... but they should be some 360 or so.
mundane shortsword: +35/+30/+25/+20
critroll: 17-20 x2
Saves Fort: 22 Ref: 27 Will: 17
BAB: 26
With Camouflage, One with the Land, Cats grace and Mass camouflage you will get Hide 74 and MS 64. I think... Didn't test it this time but it should be so.
Btw: IDA at lv 30 was improved disarm.
Just one thing: UMD works sorta like tumble that onl every 5th point does any difference, only that the actual count counts, not the number of skillpoints put into it.
Kukri are better than shortswords... I think... but I cant spare a feat for exotic. Or at least I dont think I want to, to much work.
Oh btw2: I did a search in the buildlist and no other build (thats added to the search engine) has bane of enemies AND a decent sneak/death attack. At least not with these classes. (didnt check up on rouge and BG instead of Assassin...) So that makes this unique. Unless ofcourse theres a reason noone did it yet... Mabye cuz its hard or the builds end up lame but at least I'm pleased with my first result in 17 months.
Just one thing: UMD works sorta like tumble that onl every 5th point does any difference, only that the actual count counts, not the number of skillpoints put into it.
No. Tumble works based on the base skill rank, i.e. the points you spent (if were talking about the AC bonus). No point going beyond 40 ranks. UMD works on modified score. Just FYI _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Quote: No. Tumble works based on the base skill rank, i.e. the points you spent (if were talking about the AC bonus). No point going beyond 40 ranks. UMD works on modified score. Just FYI
Thats sort of what I was trying to say... But my point was that its no point in ending on a number that cant be divided by 5, just like tumble where every 5th point gives an AC bonus, but thats only in points spent.
I havent really tried to make the last edit of the build ingame to see what the stats'll be like, I just changed the feats where suggested, thats why some of it may be wrong so thanks for correcting me Cin. Think I should post this build/move this thread to the Epic builds page instead as its more on topic there, late now, will do tomorrow.
Edited By Groml on 07/30/06 01:49
If you intend to make a sneaker, IMO, you need to make your stealth skills as high as possible, that way you avoid detection by as many people as possible. High detect Clerics (in PvP) are always going to cause you problems if they can see you as your fortitude save is rarely high enough to protect against implosions.
Generally the best sneaker around is a 12 monk, 15 ranger, 13 rogue. You have speed from your monk levels which means you can move faster than your targets, sneak attacks from rogue levels & some nice ranger bonuses / spells to further boost your hiding capability. Take 6 great dexterity feats with a starting dexterity of 20, stealthy feat, skill foci (hide / ms), esf (hide / ms) and you are laughing!
Halfling is definately the way to go as with +4 to hide / ms from small stature AND +2 to ms from skill affinity, you can acheive virtually undetectable status.
Well, my plan was to make this a viable stealthed combatbuild , not to be 100% invisible to all end everyone, only to most people. But you are correct as I'm sure you know. If noone else bothered to make a build like you mentioned, I'll get on it right away. (Posted last edition of this build in Epic builds page too)
Okay, it's better.