Thats right. Who -wouldn't- look at a thread called 'Solution.'
Well, onto my speach of sorts.
People often ask for a build with high AB, high AC, or -something- high. The response is more often than not 'What do you consider high AB/AC/X Factor' and this question rarely gets a good answer. Answers often range from confusion, to misunderstood attempts at avoiding the answer. I, myself, am terribly guilty of not knowing how to answer the question, because I never know what is considered a good figure to aim for.
The only solution I can think of for the people who really don't know what to aim for (Like Myself) is to post, in detail, their game atmosphere for whatever Server/Module they play on, and hope that an experienced builder can figure out what a good numerical figure is to aim for, in accordance with the Server itself.
So, a solution to -MY- problem:
-Level 40 Server -Almost all Class Abilities Remain -Spell Durations Reduced Greatly -No Equipment Beyond +5 -Multi-Classing has no Strict Rules -Attribute Enhancments don't go Beyond +2 -Subraces Granted, Ability to give +4 to 1 Attribute -Critical Immunity is somewhat Common
And with this said, I do not ask for a build... yet. All I ask, is if someone could tell me what good AB/AC is for a character in said atmosphere. I like working the build out for myself until I get stumped, but I just want to know what I am setting my sights on. Upwards of 40? 50? 60? 70?
If someone could give me a figure, I would be greatful and would try and take something into my own hands. And when I say AB, I don't mean an AB you will only have for a moment. True Strike doesn't count! Nobody say things like 90-100AB because you have True Strike! That !!so!! doesn't count my friends.
Quote: Posted 07/30/06 18:31:41 (GMT) -- Okembour
Thats right. Who -wouldn't- look at a thread called 'Solution.'
Well, onto my speach of sorts.
People often ask for a build with high AB, high AC, or -something- high. The response is more often than not 'What do you consider high AB/AC/X Factor' and this question rarely gets a good answer. Answers often range from confusion, to misunderstood attempts at avoiding the answer. I, myself, am terribly guilty of not knowing how to answer the question, because I never know what is considered a good figure to aim for.
The only solution I can think of for the people who really don't know what to aim for (Like Myself) is to post, in detail, their game atmosphere for whatever Server/Module they play on, and hope that an experienced builder can figure out what a good numerical figure is to aim for, in accordance with the Server itself.
That's good advice.
Quote: Posted 07/30/06 18:31:41 (GMT) -- Okembour
So, a solution to -MY- problem:
-Level 40 Server -Almost all Class Abilities Remain -Spell Durations Reduced Greatly -No Equipment Beyond +5 -Multi-Classing has no Strict Rules -Attribute Enhancments don't go Beyond +2 -Subraces Granted, Ability to give +4 to 1 Attribute -Critical Immunity is somewhat Common
And with this said, I do not ask for a build... yet. All I ask, is if someone could tell me what good AB/AC is for a character in said atmosphere. I like working the build out for myself until I get stumped, but I just want to know what I am setting my sights on. Upwards of 40? 50? 60? 70?
If someone could give me a figure, I would be greatful and would try and take something into my own hands. And when I say AB, I don't mean an AB you will only have for a moment. True Strike doesn't count! Nobody say things like 90-100AB because you have True Strike! That !!so!! doesn't count my friends.
Given the criteria, I think 50+ AB is good and 60+ exceptional. With AC 60+ is good and 70+ exceptional. Or something along those lines. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Given the criteria, I think 50+ AB is good and 60+ exceptional. With AC 60+ is good and 70+ exceptional. Or something along those lines.
I agree with Finn, and I'll show you how I generally look at it:
basic melee build with +5 gear = +25 AC (all types of AC boosted.
10 base +1 (12 DEX) +8 (plate) +3 (tower shield) +25 (enhancements) +4 (assuming Haste) +8 (Tumble: this is easy to get with a skill dump) +2 (Armor Skin)
total: 62 AC. That should be around the average (i.e. 'good) AC. A few more or less, depending on the spells available to the classes taken and whether DEX or STR-based
For AB:
+30 BAB +10 (30 in the AB stat) +5 (item enhancement) +4 (WF, EWF, Epic Prowess) +3 (+6 in AB stat from items, with potions/stacking extra items)
Total = +52 AB, which should be about average (good) for a melee build. A few more or less, depending on the BAB and the spells available to the classes taken. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 07/30/06 19:45
Cooooool. That is helpful indeed.
Last thing that I probably should have posted about is saves.
Saves are often lower than what people would like, because most Melee are strength based and thus have low reflex saves. They also often have little use for Wisdom entirely, and will have low will as well. Fortitude is the only decent one because it is likely their highest base save and Constitution is more practical for them. So, what is a decent save. not average, but decent.
I would try and calculate this like you did Cin, but I don't know if saves progress naturally after 20th level. A Monk is 12/12/12, but does it get higher as a base in Epic levels?
Spell DC's are generally in the 40's and sometimes 50's right? So having a +30 to your saves isn't that good, but more builds often have less it seems. So I am guessing saves are often weak spots?
Saves are +1 in every uneven levels in epics. So you get +10 to saves after lvl 20. Saves can quickly become a weak spot, one that must be covered one way or another. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Yep, what Grimnir said. A few things you can do about saves:
1) Grab CoT levels to boost them. If your build is focussed mainly on FTR and another class, consider replacing 10 FTR levels with 10 CoT. You end up with the same number of feats, but +5 to saves.
2) Save-boosting feats. Obvious enough, but if you have feats to spare, or can afford to drop a feat that's not really vital, these can really help out (especially the +4 to saves from epic feats).
3) Spellcraft ranks. Even cross-classed ranks will help, as every 5 modified ranks in Spellcraft gives you a +1 to saves vs spells.
4) Multiclassing. This takes some research, but it's always a good idea to keep in mind what saves are high and what ones are low for each class you're taking. Sometimes tweaking the build to take 1 more level in one class and one less in another by level 20 can result in +1 to one or more saves, while not impacting the build much at all in any important way. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
I never end up finding the room for feats to spare. But I never really relized that CoT is essentially the same as fighter... only with better saves and abilities. Doesnt get EWS though.
Alright 'gents. Thanks.
Fighter gets more feats and has no prereqs. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Quote: Posted 07/31/06 17:10:49 (GMT) -- Okembour
I never end up finding the room for feats to spare. But I never really relized that CoT is essentially the same as fighter... only with better saves and abilities. Doesnt get EWS though.
Alright 'gents. Thanks.
If you already have Weapon Specialization from FTR levels, then you can select Epic WS as a CoT bonus feat or a general epic feat when levelling as CoT. It's a nifty little (undocumented) class feature.
CoT gets a bonus feat at level 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and then every 4 levels thereafter, so if you plan on taking a lot of FTR levels in a build and don't really have a third class in mind, substituting 10 levels of CoT for 10 FTR is a no-brainer. I often go with FTR/Rogue/CoT builds - they rock. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
add 2 AB for Bless and Aid which stack.
Finn is right, actually Fighter gets more feats than CoT: Fighter gets a bonus feat at level 1, CoT does not. Epic Fighter gets bonus feat every 2 levels (same as pre-epic) while Epic CoT gets bonus feats every 4 levels (CoT 10-30). For a low amount of levels, Fighter will net you +1 feat from its first level, for too many levels, Fighter will net you more feats since it's always 1 every 2 levels, for 10 levels as Cinn says, CoT is a fine investment, that 1 feat shouldn't do much of a change anyway. of course CoT gets a great boost if your CHA is high to use Divine Wrath, so high level CoT is not necesarilly worse than high level Fighter, it can be a matter of taste or feats needed. If you take a heavy Fighter/CoT build you'll have tons of feats to spare.
Bless and Aid? that's from Paladin, not from CoT.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 08/01/06 04:01
Just to clear up what I perceive may be some confusion: I wasn't suggesting one should take CoT instead of FTR. I was suggesting if your build has a lot of FTR levels (more than 5) that you replace up to 10 of those levels with CoT. This assumes, of course, that you aren't planning on taking another class as your third class. A good example of this is the build I mentioned: FTR/Rogue/CoT. Basically it's the iconic FTR/Rogue build, but CoT replaces some of the FTR levels (up to 10) at no loss whatsoever and a net gain of +1 on all saves for every 2 levels of CoT taken. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 08/01/06 05:00:37 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Just to clear up what I perceive may be some confusion: I wasn't suggesting one should take CoT instead of FTR. I was suggesting if your build has a lot of FTR levels (more than 5) that you replace up to 10 of those levels with CoT. This assumes, of course, that you aren't planning on taking another class as your third class. A good example of this is the build I mentioned: FTR/Rogue/CoT. Basically it's the iconic FTR/Rogue build, but CoT replaces some of the FTR levels (up to 10) at no loss whatsoever and a net gain of +1 on all saves for every 2 levels of CoT taken.
Yes, I realized that. I was referring to
Quote: Posted 07/31/06 17:10:49 (GMT) -- Okembour
But I never really relized that CoT is essentially the same as fighter... only with better saves and abilities. Doesnt get EWS though.
Now, that made it seem (to me) that he's talking about Ftr vs. CoT, not replacing Ftr with CoT _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
But I never really relized that CoT is essentially the same as fighter... only with better saves and abilities. Doesnt get EWS though.
Now, that made it seem (to me) that he's talking about Ftr vs. CoT, not replacing Ftr with CoT
Ah, I see. Funny, I took it to mean if he replaced some of his FTR levels, they'd be in epic and he thought he wouldn't be able to get EWS that way. Bloody reading between the lines doesn't always work out so well for me. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
The other thing to remember about CoT is it doesn't get the heavy armor proficiency and you need a weapon focus before you take the class, so it isn't a good way to get a martial weapon proficiency.
For the setting you described I would say a 52-55 with equipment and buffs is a good AC as was noted above. Strength builds will perform better than dex builds, because you can't max out your Dex. A sword and shield build will have the same AC as a Dex. Build. The High AC characters will be clerics, bards and PMs. For the spell DCs I assume those are creature DCs or modified spell scripts because DCs don't get that high naturally.
Well, I have seen Clerics with DC 45-ish Implosions, and that was without too much magical gear so I took some sort of unwarented estimation to suggest they could get higher with more items.
And as for the Fighter/CoT thing that has confused people:
I rarely have a class to spare. If Fighter is in the build, I will likely already need the other two classes for something and personally, would not have both CoT and Fighter in the same build. I mean, sure, I could use both but I just dont think its overly fun to have two martial classes with essentially the same abilities, except for saves. I was just saying that it seems a better choice to take CoT over Fighter, unless Fighter is your base class and you dont have space in the build to make room to meet the prerequisits for CoT.
Whatever. I was talking almost to myself... though I accidentaly clicked Submit...
Quote: Posted 08/01/06 19:37:27 (GMT) -- Okembour
Well, I have seen Clerics with DC 45-ish Implosions, and that was without too much magical gear so I took some sort of unwarented estimation to suggest they could get higher with more items. ...
45 is almost as good as it gets. Maximum Implosion DC is 42 with max base WIS (38), 48 with capped WIS.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
