I'm working on a build at the moment, which focuses on buffing itself to get as much melee damage as possible with a decent AB...
At the moment, I'm working with a Brd/Clc/Ftr - 16/16/8.
This lets me maximise my BAB pre-epic (8 Bard, 8 Cleric 4 Fighter) and gets me Weapon Specialization - Great Sword.
Is the Bard/Cleric/Fighter the best build there is to get consistently high melee damage?
I assumed Greatsword, EWS, Improved Power Attack, Cleric buffs, Bard buffs and Bard Song would be the best way to get high melee damage. Is there any other build out there that can do better?
Mind you, I want a build that is CONSISTENT with its melee damage, and does the same amount of damage to different enemies/creatures before factoring in resistances, vulnerabilities, alignments, creature types etc...so this means that Ranger's Bane of Enemies is out, as is Smite Evil/Good.
Divine Might would be in I guess, but I'm not too good with CHA based Cleric & Paladin builds...
So, what's the best there is when it comes to dishin out the pain??
I need more information about your server, I suppose it's low magic since you suggest a cleric, but it's still important to know what items are at your disposal.
Now, Cleric/Fighter/Bard with a greatsword is surely a build which deals damage, I'd say anyway, that a Ranger is not very restricted, if you're going PvP a Ranger can easily cover all the races, only gaining BoE will let you hit virtually 85% of PvPs as your favored enemy, and it's a great deal of damage even for high magical environments.
Divine Might is bad and goof, it gives good damage, but you'll gain +1 damage per CHA modifier while you get 1.5 per STR modifier with your two-handed weapon, so it's preferable to increase STR than CHA unless DR is too common, where divine damage is excellent.
I've unleashed hell's wrath with a Fighter/Cleric/Weapon Master, the difference is quite low actually, you'll be changing Bard song bonuses to damage (which is very little) and whatever spells you can get, for an increased critical thread range and multiplier, the loss is minimum and the potential gain is huge, especially in low magical environments where there are no Crit immune items, only PMs will resist it, I once made one, dealing over 300 with scythe criticals (which means over 60 buffed damage) and it's dangerous without criticals anyway, but the potential threat is just too big, I consider it a bigger damage dealer than Bard as third class. Fighter 6 / Cleric 25 / Weapon Master 7 is the most optimized class distribution for damage IMO, take more WM if you need AB, but your spells will most probably lose power and a lot of duration since you'll need to go up to WM 13 for more AB.
Sneakers can also deal a lot of pain, like a Monk/Cleric/Rogue, Cleric for divine Power and as much sneak as you can, you'll kill a lot, but it is somewhat conditioned and there are quite a number of sneak immune in PvM and shifters in PvP can be immune too.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 08/07/06 02:49
Hi, well, this isn't for any server in particular. I was just thinking to myself the other day what the most damage I could do in melee was, and I looked at the Epic Builds page and the Damage Adept build...but its ridiculous!! The build I felt was nowhere near as comfortable to play as most of the other outlandish builds I've seen, and to add to that, ALL its damage is from Smite Evil! That's RIDICULOUS!! What you going to do when you're fighting a good or neutral NPC??
So yeah, I decided then, to see if I could do better and come up with a build that can do MORE damage than that build on a NON-critical hit. Criticals are random and not guaranteed on every hit, therefore they will not be allowed. As you can see, the restrictions on certain aspects are because of consistency of damage irrespective of who you are fighting with.
As far as the BoE damage a Ranger gets is concerned, its not allowed, because its not a PvP build and its not possible to get BoE for every single monster/NPC there is in the game. If you can, well fine...you can include BoE, but not otherwise!
Besides, I consider so many levels devoted only to Ranger a waste, as apart from Favored Enemy damage, Ranger doesn't bring anything to the table damagewise, unlike a Fighter (EWS), Bard (song, Warcry), Cleric (weapon buffs) etc...
Is it a better option to go RDD rather than Fighter 6?? With RDD, I have to waste 10 lvls to get +8 to str...that's plus 6 to dmg with a greatsword. With 6 lvls of Fighter, I get EWS and 1 or 2 bonus feats for free...I can definitely pick up Improved Power Attack for free this way. Its not valuable enough to waste a regular feat on it pre-epic and DEFINITELY not post epic.
The problem I see with a Cleric/Fighter/Weaponmaster build is that against Undead or Crit-immune enemies, he's nowhere near as powerful. Besides, even with keen Kukris, Improved Crit. and Weaponmaster Critical enhancements, you only ever roll on a 10-20. If you were to hit on a 9, then what? You don't do full damage!! Its not "assured" as such...hence, criticals are not allowed to factor in for damage.
EVERY hit has to do the same range of damage!! This is the reason Critical hits, Smite Evil/Good etc have been disqualified.
So...I hope that is sufficient additional information...hit me with what you got guys!
Given the fact we are talking of a STR build, one very important aspect of a consistant damage output is AB.
A 54 AB FTR 11/WM 28/Bard 1 with 36 STR will do more damage than a 51 AB FTR 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 with a 44 STR, just because the former hits more often, in a range of AC of 50-70 approximately.
Besides the answer depends on the lvl of magic available. I'd say that a Cleric 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 with a 36 STR which exploits divine power and with access to haste (via domain or item) can shed out a big amount of pain fully buffed at an AB of 67 (68 if capping STR) thanks to darkfire (1d6+10), GMW (+5), Divine Favor (+5), Prayer (+1), Battletide (+2), buffed STR (+7 to damage with a two hander self buffed), bard song (+2)... that's a 1d6+32 just from spells to which you've gotta add base weapon damage (say 7 avg for a GS) and base STR bonus (+19 with a 2-hander), for a final 1d6+58 or 59-64 dmg per hit... and you'll hit often with that AB
BTW, harm is a very consistant source of damage output and it's melee A cleric/SD harmer would manage to ignore all AC but deflection
I believe that also a Cleric/Monk/FTR STR based exploiting kamas would fare good.
Just some ideas and again keep present that the lvl of magic needs to be considered to give a balanced answer (higher magic will make the cleric less powerful since higher unbuffed AB builds will be able to get the same dmg output at a higher AB thanks to magic gear if the magic lvl is high enough).
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 08/07/06 10:03
Lets assume that this build was being played through HotU...and would be continued to play to lvl 40 through other modules with similar magic items available.
@Kail:You raise an interesting point...agreed, a higher AB would guarantee more damage due to assured hits over a period of time. But then again, this build is semi-academic to be honest, to determine what is the MAXIMUM buffed damage a guy can do legally.
Harm doesn't count because its a direct-damage spell...if you put it that way, Greater Ruin would do more damage on average than anything I could do in Melee..
How does a Cleric 26 RDD 10 Bard 4 do more damage than a Cleric 18 Bard 16 Fighter 6??
RDD will have 8 more strength, but then fighter gets weapon specialisation, plus bonus feats, better AB and access to Greatsword for free.
Harm is uncapped though (in NWN at least) so it can potentially deal millions HPs of damage Also it is a touch attack spell, so you actually have to hit your opponent, although ignoring armor, shield and natural AC (which includes Nat AC enhancements like barkskin or ammys, AS, PM AC, RDD AC, Monk WIS AC and Monk lvl based AC). Think of catching someone flatfooted and they'll be left with 10 + deflection AC only. Which means at most 30 AC due to the cap
I didn't say Cleric 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 deals the most damage but that it deals quite good damage. Besides the Cl/FTR/BRD gets +1 BAB but -4 AB from STR, so it actually has -3 AB. WS/EWS washes out with the higher STR of the RDD (+6 to damage with a two hander). Finally if you go for a BAB 26 with the CL/FTR/BRD you are missing divine power exploit, so your 4th attack (not counting haste ) will be at -15 AB instead of full AB.
True, you can lower your opponents AC by -5 points therefore effectively increasing your AB by the same amount, which nets to the CL/BARD/FTR +2 effective AB. But you ain't using the divine power exploit, which grants a much higher number of landed hits and therefore damage output. The solution is to go for BAB 25 also with the CL/BARD/FTR and exploit divine power with a final advantage of +1 effective AB, after curse song. The difference is much less than what you thought, ain't it? What I don't like with the CL 18 build is that it is dispellable though, besides I simply love CL 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 combo
Again, I just showed you a build that has a big damage output not the one that has the highest.
The tricky part of your request is that one should do some statistical analysis to determine which build dishes the most consistant damage. Many factors come in: apr, AB, AB progression (normal -5 or monk's -3), damage output per hit, AC you are trying to hit.
It basically comes down to evaluate how many times you hit in a round (average) against a specific AC, multiply that value by your average damage output per hit, then chart the average damage output per round vs all ACs.
Some builds will probably be better against some AC ranges while others will outshine them in another AC range. So, there is no definite answer probably... no bestest build Surprised?
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
Well, I'm confused at your approach, and I definitely do not agree, increasing critical threat and multiplier for such a minimum loss is, as for percentages, a big gain, but what to do about it? nothing, have it your way.
If you say that your calculations are made only as statistics in a HOTU environment, a Cleric is a waste of a class. HOTU has +10 weapons with 2d6 elemental damage, Haste and Keen, aside from +10 on almost every other thing (STR, ACs, etc.) which can fetch ACs near 100, HOTU setting is higher than the Cleric buffs on a weapon.
Fighter and Red Dragon Disciple are difficult to compare, Red Dragon Disciple gets a lot of more bonuses and most probably a slight AB increase too, or a +4 AB if taken on epics, but you previously need the Barda and won't get the Fighter extra feats, obviously. For that purposes, a Fighter/Bard/Red Dragon Disciple reaches very high amounts of damage, let's see, STR: strating 20, +10 leveling, +8 RDD, +6 Great Strengths = 44 STR which gives 25 damage +2d6 Greatsword +10 enhancement +2d6 acid or something else, +6 EWS let's say 45-65 without counting Bardsong or Bard spells (which I don't remember very well) and that spread has a lot of space for Bard levels. ANd that being an unbuffed damage it's got potential for much more, +9 capped STR = 54-74 etc... not bad AB, depending also on how much Fighter taken for BAB, but not as high as the WM. I say Improved Power Attack is a very bad feat, sacrificing 10 AB is not worth it, but your damage goes now to 64/84 with it... Bardsong gave +3 damage didn't it? 67-87.
Why do you want to know this btw? a max consistent damage build won't get to be the "best" build anyway at a given place.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 08/07/06 21:53
I know that, but its largely BECAUSE something like this is not a very clear build and there are lots of options out there...I wanted to see if it is possible to figure something out that would be the closest there is to a max damage build.
Kail made some very good points, which have me thinking again about the RDD class. However, you forgot that fighter delivers within 6 levels, only 2 of which are epic, whereas the RDD class needs 10 lvls to give you its full benefits.
@Thax: Yeah, I know crits and multiplier increases can boost damage over a number of hits on a percentage basis, but then, not EVERY hit is going to do the same damage. For the sake of this (semi-academic) let's just assume that every hit has to do the same damage.
By my reckoning, the damage would be something like: 2d6 - normal Greatsword 2d6 - Elemental enhancement +10 Enhancement 1d6+10 - Darkfire +5 - Divine Favor +2 - Warcry +3 - Bard Song +1 - Prayer +2 - Battletide +21 - 38 STR (assuming 6 Great STRs, +10 from stat-ups and +12 item/spell enhancement) +10 - Imp. Power Attack -------------------- 5d6+64 or 69-94 damage.
PS:@Thax: Let's also just assume that AC is not the factor here. Because if I wanted to hit AC 100 characters, I'd be using an Arcane Archer.
If AC is not a factor you don't want max consistant damage output but max potential damage output, since it is hitting or not that determines whether the damage gets delivered.
Remove 2d6 elemental damage (no items counted in), +10 from power attack (which is just a matter of taking the feat and which anyhow gives you -10 AB, which means hitting far less often, therefore delivering tons less damage) and +5 of your +10 weapon enhancement (again, no items counted in since they benefits both builds in the same measure) and you are delivering the same damage as the Cleric/Bard/RDD. Let's look into it:
2d6 GS 27 STR (self buffed only, 28 if capped) 1d6 +10 Dark Fire +5 GMW +5 Divine Favor +1 Prayer +2 Battle Tide +2 Bard song
55-70 (56-71 with capped STR)
2d6 elemental damage +10 power attack +5 (+10 weap.en. instead of +5)
73-98 with STR capped
which is just 2 worse than the Cleric/Bard/FTR (you forgot to factor in WS/EWS in your calculation). But then again, this bard can cast war cry from a scroll, for the same final damage output. Both builds could also cast deafening clang from scroll too for another +3 dmg, just for the record.
But then again you can build a Cleric 16/Bard 14/RDD 10 which does +1 dmg compared to the CL/Brd/FTR (add +1 bard song and +2 war cry) and it will hit more often because of a final better effective AB (+2) *shrugs*.
Anyhow, not counting AC, AB, AB progression and APRs makes in impossible to evaluate which build deals the best consistant damage. Consistant damage should be evaluated as average dmg delivered per round, charted against all ACs. As I said, there will be different "best" builds for different AC ranges. If you know the AC range you'll be up against, then you can choose your highest damage output build.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
Sorry to tear you down, but the reason I changed classes and took out Cleric of the recipe is because you can't cast Darkfire on a magical weapon (you said HOTU, which is +10), it only works on non-magical weapons, hence, drop that 11-16 damage if you pretend to get +10 enhancement and 2d6 elemental damage, that's why, even though Clerics get some buffs like Divine Favor, Battletide and Prayer, EWS is far more consistent compared to those low duration spells, also allowing a bigger deal of Bard spells and bonus epic feats to take Great Strength on all normal feats.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 08/08/06 22:26
You can cast Darkfire on a magical weapon. I do it all the time with my Clerics. What made you think you couldn't? _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Cinn, I think I remember Thax from an old Dragonlance server! THey wouldnt let clerics have GMW + Darkfire, and if u had a +enchant wpn you couldnt add darkfire Nice to remember you buddy!! I only ever played my cleric to lv 10 there before I had to commit server hopscotch!! jk thax! Tryin to help you out.
NOW about this max damage stuff. THere was this dude (whom I met recently on his server) who figured this ALL out for us. He broke it down and disected it. If you are looking for a nice damage dealer, you need to go no further than BIOWARE epic characters. Click Here I am not sure bout any of you, but lookin through this guys builds, he has some serious talent at makin exploit builds. _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Ah, soryy Thax, if that's the case on your understanding of Darkfire.
Yeah, cdaulepp's damned good. He manages to soak every bit of potential out of his character builds.
A note on that build: it doesn't get the last attack, since Divine Power was fixed. Not a big deal. I did a Human version of it (unintentionally) that gets slightly more minimum damage using a greatsword, but doesn't have the Imp PA feat, so loses out vs cdaulepp's build when it's in Imp PA mode.
Only problem with the build is a huge susceptibility to being dispelled. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
I don't know much about in which server happens what, but I simply couldn't cast Darkfire on a magical weapon first time I tried, so I never even tried again, good to know you can.
I never played with Clerics on the OCs (like references), when I started playing I didn't have HOTU, (Darkfire and GMW are HOTU spells) so Clerics weren't very attractive back then.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 08/09/06 03:39
Hey Thax, yeah, Darkfire and GMW work very well together, and on magic weapons, but neither work on a ranged (maybe that was what you were thinking, or in all likelihood it could've just been the server (some of them do the darnedest things)
Kail, great point re: Divine Power, but it doesn't add to damage (ie, unless your str is less than 18, in which it will by bringing your str to 18; not much use if ie a ftr, and already beyond that. While DP exploit is great, also as you note need a BAB 25 to qualify for the last round/full boost. To get WS/EWS, need to have 4 ftr pre-ep; doing so however will automatically take you to above BAB 25 (ie., to 27 if more than 8 cleric pre-ep, and to 28 if only 8 cleric; either way, beyond the BAB 25 needed for the final exploit, but less than 4 ftr and no WS -- if going for damage, best to go the WS route. Haven't tried these numbers with RDD - in addition to CD's (which looks great!), Mith did one, too, yes? An RDD/cleric with a BAB 25, AB 42 I think (and with the str.. As such, no ftr, but with extra RDD str., should even out, yes?
Question always come around though as to what items/AC we're dealing with since, if can't land a hit, can't do much damage (although that harm spell of the cleric's, well ...! ). That'd be my two cents, but as to cleric buff durations, there's extend for that, and also their ability to empower. An empowered blade barrier on a 20th level cleric, for e.g., does 20d6 x 1.5 damage to the enemy per pass, and you can lay more than one, yes? Plus, they've aura (damages enemy on each hit); anyway, just food for thought. Cheers! ~ Tyr
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/09/06 04:01
I have a couple of high damage builds from back in the day. When dinosaurs walked the earth and there was no Epic Character Builders guild, only a competition for the "best" builds. Back then, I made a couple of builds that did high damage. I think a the cleric/bard/rdd will ultimately have the best damage against everything, but don't count out the cleric/ranger/fighter and paladin/ranger/fighter. Both of which be quite lethal. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Kail, great point re: Divine Power, but it doesn't add to damage (ie, unless your str is less than 18, in which it will by bringing your str to 18; not much use if ie a ftr, and already beyond that. While DP exploit is great, also as you note need a BAB 25 to qualify for the last round/full boost. To get WS/EWS, need to have 4 ftr pre-ep; doing so however will automatically take you to above BAB 25 (ie., to 27 if more than 8 cleric pre-ep, and to 28 if only 8 cleric; either way, beyond the BAB 25 needed for the final exploit, but less than 4 ftr and no WS -- if going for damage, best to go the WS route. Haven't tried these numbers with RDD - in addition to CD's (which looks great!), Mith did one, too, yes? An RDD/cleric with a BAB 25, AB 42 I think (and with the str.. As such, no ftr, but with extra RDD str., should even out, yes?
...
You don't need FTR 4 preepic to get WS/EWS, so you can both have WS/EWS and exploit divine power. I use to do it all the time with Cleric/FTR (club exploit or not).
Besides, what some are missing is that being able to land a hit is fundamental to determine the highest consistant damage output. If I can hit for a 1000 HPs a hit but I score a hit only 1/1000 rounds there's no consistant damage output to speak of.
Cleric/Bard/RDD is very efficient in a broad AC range and I forgot some sources of damage in my calculations as battle mastery and divine might. IPA is worth considering only vs very low ACs (so low you'll be hitting but on a 1) or very high ACs (battle of 20s) since it actually hinders damage output by decreasing AB (and therefore scored hits). Meself, I like the CLeric 26 variant because of undispellability and bonus feats even though damage output is slightly lower.
I wouldn't count out a high lvl STR based Ranger BoE dual wielder either, it can get enough FEs to basically cover all common enough encounters and those not covered should be easy to dispatch targets. Monk/Cleric/FTR dual wielding kamas and exploiting all that's exploitable seems a promising build too.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 08/09/06 11:04
Hmm...you're right. I guess the Cleric/Bard/RDD takes it away!! Not by much though. Also, I know that RDD is probably a better option, but SO many levels just to get +8 STR seems a waste to me, is all...ah well.
I guess that settles it, a Cleric/Bard/RDD with a bard song going up to the full +3 damage, ability to cast lvl 4 spells and probably 15 lvls of Cleric.
Hmm...you're right. I guess the Cleric/Bard/RDD takes it away!! Not by much though. Also, I know that RDD is probably a better option, but SO many levels just to get +8 STR seems a waste to me, is all...ah well.
I guess that settles it, a Cleric/Bard/RDD with a bard song going up to the full +3 damage, ability to cast lvl 4 spells and probably 15 lvls of Cleric.
Thanks guys...
Funny we are still debating this issue. I just read a post today from cdaulepp for nwn2. He convinced me that the rdd is TOTALLY worth the 10 lvls IF you want melee excellence! And with its 3/4 progression, with bard and cleric you are assured to exploit the stuffings out of div powers!!!
I cannot do it justice, but the jist of what he said is this: consider 3/4 from rdd, at 10 lvls nets you 7 ab. Great! Not as great as a fighter, but then we arnt fighters. BUT, for those 10 rdd lvls we get 8 str! This is +4 ab! 7+4 = 11 ab! A fighter will get only 10! umm.. 11>10! (at least in canada it does). Now, the fighter can take 6 feats extra. This is nice. If you take one ws feat you get +4 dam.. 4=4 from str bonus.. Hmm. They both can take wf feat for +ab. The rdd gets +2 int, +2 cha, +2 con, imm to para/fire, +4 ac, and cool lookin red wings!! So you are right. That 10 rdd lvls is a real waste when you are going for melee excellence.
The statement, "not by much". This game is all about 1s and such (how many of us have died on a 1). The question was asked, "the most consistent damage". cdaulepp did it. He even tweakd a former build to pull one or 2 points of damage out of it. Not by much is alot. You also wanted a BUffer! There is no better combo than an rdd/cleric for this (and by default, bard). Miths recent c/b/rdd has proven this to me and cd's logic is undeniable. We should all heed his advice (seein that it was for nwn2 ). _________________
BTW, harm is a very consistant source of damage output and it's melee A cleric/SD harmer would manage to ignore all AC but deflection
You mean flatfooting their dodge AC? But doesn't dexterity AC bonus adds to the touch attack AC?
Kail: Huh? I know club WS only requires 1 ftr, but 4 ftr req'd for all other weapons, no? Anyway, your point re: consistency, is bang on, and that be the problem, as to how to define it since it be reliant on a variety of factors, most important of which (in me humble opinion) would be the AC factor. For this reason, and while cleric/RDD is def extremely versatile and an all-around wondrous performer, once we get uber AC levels, well...
In terms of melee that is (ie., not smiting or casting), I wouldn't rule out Bard/WM/FTR - high AB means you'll hit, and hit in turn means damage; for e.g. Click Here
Now, that be Blade, which I did w. dev. crit, but can obviously be adjusted to non dev crit, which in turn will allow str. to be raised a couple points (ie., by moving a couple things over to bonus slots, and taking grt str instead, this, b/c DevCrit's ruled out by the OP I understand (undead immunue to crits and, while pally smitin' rather awesome as against them and evil things, not work vs nonevil, so also ruled out by the OP; otherwise, pally smitin', well yeah, 'tis great
Anyway, point here is only this: high AB = hit, and with max'd UMD, can essentially via scrolls add to this guy's weapon just about anything melee-oriented that a cleric can (ie., darkfire, GMW, Divine Favor, Bless, Prayer, etc., which are all avail. as scrolls; thus, I'm not inclined to rule out Bard/WM/Ftr combo. Of course, if high AC isn't a problem in the particular environment we're speaking of, whereever that may be, and thus don't need so high AB, then having a cleric/rdd/bard is def. far, far more self-sufficient than a ftr/wm/bard who obv. needs to do some scroll-shopping, which clerics of course don't. Just saying, though, that "consistency" is a very much loaded term, and one that totally depends upon the AC factor, and environment.
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/10/06 05:31
Tyr, Kail said you don't need 4 FTR pre-epic to get WS/EWS, meaning you could got CLC 17/FTR 3, then pick up WS/EWS at level 24 by taking the 4th FTR level (after picking up EWF first, of course). That way you can still exploit Divine Power. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Cinn: gotcha, and agreed; take ie., 2 fts pre-ep to keep BAB in line (ie., 15 pre-ep, so as to enable the full DP exploit) and then, in epic, take ftr 3 and on a main-line feat level, take ftr 4, opening a bonus slot to simultaneously take WS & EWS; best of both worlds for sure, if ya doesn't mind waiting (great clarity point! (still, gotta love that club thing; ah, those clerics - indeed
BTW, harm is a very consistant source of damage output and it's melee A cleric/SD harmer would manage to ignore all AC but deflection
You mean flatfooting their dodge AC? But doesn't dexterity AC bonus adds to the touch attack AC?
A "normal" touch attacks ignores armor, shield, natural AC and their enhancements (natural AC includes AS, RDD/PM/Monk wis and lvl based ACs).
Flatfooted means losing all DEX, tumble and dodge AC (uncanny dodge will let you keep DEX AC).
Now, hit with harm (touch attack) a flatfooted opponent (be your opponent paralysed, KDed or just plain fatfooted) and you are ignoring all ACs but deflection. I love touch attacks.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
@Kail: Interesting...this makes Dragons a piece of cake if I understand you correctly. Prismatics have a +62 Natural Armor bonus...wow!
Oh, and before I go try and make a build focused on Harming EVERYTHING...I need to know - Which AB is used for determing Touch Attacks AB? BAB only? Or your fully buffed AB? Can I improve my AB for touch attacks by using Divine Power etc?
IIRC, it's your fully buffed AB that's used. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Indeed, fully buffed unarmed AB, which usually means unarmed AB +21 (no GMW unfortunately) if capping STR. Bard song for another +2 and possibly War Cry/Curse song/Taunt/KD for an unnecessary overkilling effective AB +40 vs a pityful AC
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
Harm is susceptible to spell resistance though...which makes significant multiclassing with Bard a problem. Unless I keep my Cleric lvls at 26, forego RDD and get my Bard song up to the required levels...or am I missing something here?
Harm is susceptible to spell resistance though...which makes significant multiclassing with Bard a problem. Unless I keep my Cleric lvls at 26, forego RDD and get my Bard song up to the required levels...or am I missing something here?
Yes, harm is stoped by sr (as I found several times last night ) Why would it affect multiclassing? I dont remember the sr forumla exactly, but, i think its somethin like spell lv + foci + modifiier (wis in this case)... no class lvls, iirc. The 25 lvls of caster is for dispell, which isnt really an issue in some cases. You just have to decide what you want.
Hope that helps.
SP = Caster lvl +SP feats (+2/+4/+6 not stackable), so yes a lower caster lvl hinders you. My Cleric 26/Bard 4/RDD 10 (WIS based)penetrates automatically 32 toolset max DR and that's usually good enough. It depends what you are up against.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
K so i was WRONG Told you I wasnt a genius!
I need more information about your server, I suppose it's low magic since you suggest a cleric, but it's still important to know what items are at your disposal.
A cleric/SD harmer would manage to ignore all AC but deflection 
Cinn, I think I remember Thax from an old Dragonlance server! THey wouldnt let clerics have GMW + Darkfire, and if u had a +enchant wpn you couldnt add darkfire 
Thax, yeah, Darkfire and GMW work very well together, and on magic weapons, but neither work on a ranged (maybe that was what you were thinking, or in all likelihood it could've just been the server (some of them do the darnedest things) 
) Why would it affect multiclassing? I dont remember the sr forumla exactly, but, i think its somethin like spell lv + foci + modifiier (wis in this case)... no class lvls, iirc. The 25 lvls of caster is for dispell, which isnt really an issue in some cases. You just have to decide what you want.
Told you I wasnt a genius!