I'd like some advice on how best to build a defense-based dexer. Base character is a halfling ftr/rogue, dual wielding kukris. I have been going the ftr10/rog29/SD 1 route, but I'm recently reconsidering whether more SD levels would allow me to take more great dexterity, i.e. ftr10/rge15/sd15 or thereabouts.
I want my dex to be as high as possible for ab and skills, so I thought taking SD and having epic feats every 3 levels instead of 4 for epic rogue might allow more space for building up to epic dodge, leaving my standard feat/3 levels for great dex. I do not want to take self-concealment, since there are items available on my PW that grant 60% concealment.
Part of my dilemma is that the rogue bonus feats for levels 10-19 that I would want to take (imp evasion, slippery mind, defensive roll, and one extra) are the ones I'd get from a similar number of SD levels. Since most boss monsters I'd be fighting are crit-immune, the extra sneak damage from rogue doesn't help me much. SD also grants slightly more HP (8 instead of 6) but rogue allows for more skill points.
Does anyone have suggestions on the better route, assuming I keep the 10 fighter for the ab and fighter feats? There are a lot of factors and I just wanted to see if anyone else had some advice.
Edited By obsidian tower on 10/21/06 21:07
Well, I'd try both in a leveller module offline and see how they turn out.
You may want to consider that a rogue 29/ftr 10/SD 1 will have 4 rogue bonus feats (at rogue 10, 13, 16, and 19) and two epic bonus feats for a toal of six bonus feats... you can use rogue general bonus feats on certain epic feats if you are taking that rogue level in epic levels.
Ie, if you take rogue level 16 on character level 21, you can take certain epic feats with its bonus feat. I forget if great dex is on the list for that or not, but it's worth looking into.
An SD 15 will only get 1 epic bonus feat... you'd do better by going rogue 17 SD 13 ftr 10 - that gets you the rogue bonus feat at 16, more sneak dice, and keeps the SD bonus feat at 13. Or you'd want to do rogue 14/SD 16/ftr 10 to get the bonus feat at SD 16 and then a late rogue level for skill dumping.
However... if you just plain old want feats, I think you should go with rogue 29. You're at best just barely going to equal the number of feats the rogue will get with your SD levels, unless you shed lots of rogue levels (like, to only 5 rogue levels or something). _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Neither Rogue nor SD will allow you to select Great Dex. Probably the best thing you can do is to go heavy Rogue since heavy SD isn't going to add a heckuva a lot in the environment you describe. I'd stick with Rogue and get their bonus feat/sneak/skill/UMD progression over SD any day of the week.
If you absolutely must have SD, and can get away with 1, then I'd take 1. I suppose you could make the argument that 10SD is worth it since from Level 5-10 you get 3 would-be Rogue bonus feats. But I wouldn't go higher than that. If True Sight has been modified so that it adds oly to Spot/Listen scores, then you could go 10SD, qualify for Epic Dodge, and then use your Rogue bonus feats for Crippling Strike, Epic Dodge, ESF: Hide, ESF: Move Silently. In the end you would be Ftr10/Rogue20/SD10. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Heck, since you're saying it's a defense based DEXer, and that most bosses are sneak immune, I'd go with a Fighter6/Monk6/SD28 (Monk for speed/AC boost + end game skill dump) or something. Get ED and SC5 and lots of DEX! Also, if DR isn't readily available on items, consider a DD/SD/something with ED, SC and a decent amount of DR. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Edited By FinneousPJ on 10/21/06 23:54
Rogue 24/Bard 6/PM 10, ED at 21st lvl, SCV, crit immunity, high naked AC, UMD, trap skills even a weak bard song, halfling dual wielder of doom, of course. And the nice thing is that it ain't just defensive.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Guys, he already said he didn't want SC V because there are items that grant 60% concealment (60???). _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Guys, he already said he didn't want SC V because there are items that grant 60% concealment (60???).
Right... _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
I should stop posting this late at night, better go catch some sleep.
But, uh, wait: is it my dizzy mind playing tricks or that's a 60% concealment?!? Didn't know anyone was so fool as to create and handle such objects to players... _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/22/06 00:34
Thanks for all the feedback. We use a rebirth system where once you hit 40 you can go back to 1 with a nice item. If you have taken 10 levels of rogue you can choose an item that gives 60%...but only at level 40, and only 2x a day for 300 seconds, as follows:
Night Blade: Power: 300 seconds * 2 per day Bonus Hit Points = CharacterLevel + 1d20 Concealment % = ((CharacterLevel / 10) + 1) * 15 Immunity to Critical Hits Requirements: 10 or more levels in Rogue
I have already rebirthed once and taken this item. I will probably do so again very soon and get another 2 uses per day. So the build I'm trying to plan is for my third rebirth. Since you keep your first level and your equipment, this character must have at least one level of rogue. Right now I have the rogue 29/ftr10/sd1 with ED, maxed parry, and the concealment. Yes, parry is "useless" but it works ok for me, especially when most hits miss me anyway due to concealment, I have a good chance to parry the ones that get through.
I realize that AA is the only class that gives great dex. However, I was thinking that since epic feats come more frequently for SD (1/3 levels instead of 1/4 levels rogue), and since epic is only lvl 10+ for SD, I could save 6 of my normal epic feats (21, 24, 27, etc) for great dex and use the SD feats for epic dodge and its prereqs and other stuff. It's not possible to fit in 8 great dex it seems, and there's no point in 7, really.
Edited By obsidian tower on 10/22/06 03:58
Without Assassin-levels or AA-levels you won't get 8 great Dex no matter how hard you try, seeing as there are only 7 general Epic Feats. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
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Whoops, AA and assassin, my mistake And it's actually 75% concealment at its best, which makes SCV pretty obsolete. I'm going to try out the different builds in Novice to Epic tonight.
Wait a minute. There's another possibility. And much of it depends on how you multiclass and when you multiclass. Rogue's still get a 1/3 level bonus feat progression from 10-19, so if you can postpone at least Rogue16-19 in Epic then you'll have at least 2 bonus feats to play with. If you take Rogue24 then you'll have 3. You'd get 3 with SD19, but let's face it, other than Epic Dodge, what are you going to use those bonus feats for? This is where Rogue is superior because they have a better pick list.
You can get 9 Great Dex feats if you take Harper Scout along with Fighter/Rogue. You could go Rogue25/Ftr10/HS5 and, if you start with a 17 Dex, you can get up to a 36Dex with 9 Great Dex feats. If you're using Halfling, then you could start with a 19 Dex and get a 38 Dex. Of course, you lose HiPS, but this sounds like a world where that might not be an issue. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Ooooh now there's a thought... I'm sort of restricted to my original choice for first level character, which is halfling with dex 18. I could still take 8 great dex with HS 5 to end with 36 which is an improvement over the 34 I'd have without HS. It would also serve as a skill dump for discipline. I'd lose HIPS but I don't have to take mobility for SD, meaning I can fill that pre-epic feat with Alertness or Iron Will.
I'll play around with this concept today, sounds like fun. Thanks grizzled and everyone!
And it's actually 75% concealment at its best, which makes SCV pretty obsolete. I'm going to try out the different builds in Novice to Epic tonight.
Wait a minute. There's another possibility. And much of it depends on how you multiclass and when you multiclass. Rogue's still get a 1/3 level bonus feat progression from 10-19, so if you can postpone at least Rogue16-19 in Epic then you'll have at least 2 bonus feats to play with. If you take Rogue24 then you'll have 3. You'd get 3 with SD19, but let's face it, other than Epic Dodge, what are you going to use those bonus feats for? This is where Rogue is superior because they have a better pick list.