hey. i very rarely see builds that are strenght based but use dual wielding. why is this so?
it might be quite effective as long as there are good weapons available.
Quote: Posted 03/27/07 16:30 (GMT) -- dust7
hey. i very rarely see builds that are strenght based but use dual wielding. why is this so?
it might be quite effective as long as there are good weapons available.
I'd imagine most STR builds would use a two-handed weapon for added damage. Maybe a shield for defense. In any case dual-wielding requires DEX to be successful - or Ranger levels (check my Nature's Punisher build). _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
As Finn said, two handed or shield are most common, normally a better choice, besides ITWF it's a 3 feats investment that requires Ambidexterity, which requires 15 DEX, and that's a waste of DEX for such builds that wear heavy armor and when you're already one step into DEX based.
I made a dual wielding Fighter 8 / Champion of Torm 4 / Dwarven Defender 28 some time ago (DWD needs 13 DEX anyway, so that's why it's so close), the added damage was worth it more than a two handed weapon since STR was not really too high to be able to get EDR, though I never posted that one as a level 40 build... using that much Fighter and CoT makes a build have too much feats, where dual wielding is a fair feat investment, on that base you can easily make dual wielding STR based builds if you have free feats, if not, it's probably just not worth it.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/27/07 21:02
Take a look at the kama version of Temple Guardian. Click Here
TM
My Natures executioner is a dual-wielding STR build. The more damage you get from other sources than strength, the more viable dual-wielding becomes over 2handers. But even in non-rangers, a strength based dual-wielder does more damage than a 2hand wielder. The example with DwD can easily dual-wield over since you already invest in 13 dex. The same goes for WMs. I played a few, and the massive damage you dish out makes it really fun to play it. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
This is perhaps the most effective and roughnecked duel wielder in this forum by Thaxll'ssyllia
Click Here
Maybe you don't want cleric, but it derserves to be mentioned _________________ Valkos clueless
Quote: Posted 03/29/07 10:23 (GMT) -- Kalmar_Oxin
This is perhaps the most effective and roughnecked duel wielder in this forum by Thaxll'ssyllia
Click Here
Maybe you don't want cleric, but it derserves to be mentioned
Except for the small detail that it is not a dual-wielder....... _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
WHAT?! I have been decieved by my own mind!
At least it would make a grand Duel wielder _________________ Valkos clueless
Quote: Posted 03/29/07 11:06 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
Quote: Posted 03/29/07 10:23 (GMT) -- Kalmar_Oxin
This is perhaps the most effective and roughnecked duel wielder in this forum by Thaxll'ssyllia
Click Here
Maybe you don't want cleric, but it derserves to be mentioned
Except for the small detail that it is not a dual-wielder.......
Well, thanks for the compliment anyway Kalmar but no, it's not a dual wielder nor it's meant to ever be one.
Quote: Posted 03/27/07 16:30 (GMT) -- dust7
hey. i very rarely see builds that are strenght based but use dual wielding. why is this so?
it might be quite effective as long as there are good weapons available.
I have just begun to think the same way. Most dual wield builds are DEX based (since it requires 15 DEX, unless built with Ranger) and a lot use Sneak Attack to create lots of damage. Thats fine and all, but when you run into foes who are immune to sneak attack, it can be a real pain in the ***. I like the option to not always have to sneak to do damage and be able to stand toe to toe with an enemy when need be. My lastest build, "Relentless Assault", is built this way.
maybe a bard/fighter/rdd qualifies for str dual wielding. dex 15 does not hurt much because of the RDD stat boosts, and fighter levels will get you plenty of feats.
Quote: Posted 03/29/07 16:55 (GMT) -- dust7
maybe a bard/fighter/rdd qualifies for str dual wielding. dex 15 does not hurt much because of the RDD stat boosts, and fighter levels will get you plenty of feats.
The point is not about "qualifying" for DW, but rather that it serves no purpose, especially when it costs 3 feats and enough stat points to reach 15 DEX - all of that could be used to make the build better in other ways. Most likely your Bard/FTR/RDD will be better by going with 08 to 12 DEX, more STR/CON and Two-Handed Sword & Full Plate and yet three extra feats compared to DWing. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Edited By FinneousPJ on 03/29/07 17:51
A STR based RDD deals more with a two handed weapon in most cases, because two handed weapon gets a damage modifier of 1.5 your STR score while the dual-wielding offhand gets it penalized to 0.5. Such a build would only deal better damage dual-wielding if weapons have a lot of enhancement and magical damage that can overrun the STR score boost, at which point going STR based can end useless as well.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/29/07 21:23
That might be true against foes with some DR or against a set AC, but most of the time dual-wielding outperforms 2hander in terms of total damage. Concealment, ED etc increases the dual advantage.
F.ex. think of your AB Hasted, highest-lowest: 45/45/40/35/30 with 2hander 45/43/43/38/38/33/28 Although each attack does less damage from Strength, just do the maths. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Yeah well, it's complicated... against such things like Epic Dodge the more APR the better, I can't argue against that.
Your dual-wielding AB progression needs a -2/-2 Grim though I'd say -3/-3 is more fair due to the fact that you'll need 15 DEX for starters, which will make you lower initial stats compared to a STR based 8 DEX build. I find it to be a matter of real STR scores, nasty RDDs can get base STR scores in the 40s, which adds bonus of about +8 damage or more if buffed, also the fact that the two handed weapon gets a higher dice in regular hits, in such cases I'll always pick a Greatsword over two kurkis, two handed weapon bonus STR loses a lot of real efficiency if your base STR score is below 30.
I'll agree with you most of the times dual-wielding will outperform the two hander, but it doesn't applies in the same way in the case of RDDs.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/30/07 21:48
Actually, the kukri example brings up another point - crits. The only way to get an extended rit range with a 2-hander is to use a halfling or gnome and wield a scim or rapier. But you can dual-wield kukris to get the higher crit range, and score more critical hits. That may bump a dual-wielding build up yet a bit more against crit-susceptible enemies. Of course, it bumps the two-handed weapon up a bit more against crit-immunes....
Your dual-wielding AB progression needs a -2/-2 Grim
It's there.
Quote: Posted 03/30/07 10:39 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
F.ex. think of your AB Hasted, highest-lowest: 45/45/40/35/30 with 2hander 45/43/ 43/38/38/33/28
Haste/Normal Schedule _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Uh, my bad, I need glasses
I think DR is the only situation that favors 2hander over dual-wielding because of the number of attacks the better AB. More damage in total. Even i high STR builds, since very rarely do all your damage come from STR, and the total damage bonus for your best attacks ends up the same anyway. Ask Kail, I think he has done extensive studies, ;p .
In a feat-starved build you're often better off going with the 2hander, all depending.
I'd also like to add a note that my view might be coloured since I usually play Rangers and the FE and BoE bonus clearly favors dual-wielding, even if it costs a few AC points. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
One other comment - in environments where you have access to a smith, or where items can have multiple useful properties (haste, true sight, regeneration, ability buffs, etc.), dual-wielding gives you 2 slots to put bonuses on.
TM
Quote: Posted 03/27/07 16:30 (GMT) -- dust7
hey. i very rarely see builds that are strenght based but use dual wielding. why is this so?
it might be quite effective as long as there are good weapons available.
It's because you ain't looking hard enough. Rangers make excellent STR based dual wielders and STR based Rangers are way better than DEX based ones. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
hey. i very rarely see builds that are strenght based but use dual wielding. why is this so?
it might be quite effective as long as there are good weapons available.
It's because you ain't looking hard enough. Rangers make excellent STR based dual wielders and STR based Rangers are way better than DEX based ones.
That's cheap, but most probably true.
You could just blame other builders for not doing many builds like that, who knows, I tend to focus on bigger stat/class issues to make a build, and often end feat starved for ITWF; you could as well just make one yourself dust7, your latest dual wielder Starving Bard was clearly dex based (like, just read the title).
Strength-based dualwielders?
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Strength-based dualwielders? Take a gander at the most iconic strength-based dualwielder out there
The Two-Fisted Weaponmaster _________________ This message approved by the Pangean Expatriates Committee for the Reunification of Pangea.
STR-based Dual-wielders?
Some Dev Critters: Green Beret (Torm's Special Operative) CoT 14, Ranger 10, Monk 16 (see, STR. version), Click Here
Wild Hunter (“Eternal Warden”) Ranger(26)/ Bard(4)/PM(10) Click Here
Also, some non-dev critters: Knight Panther (Warrior of the Cats) /Ranger 26/Rogue 10/BG 4 Click Here
Divine Ranger (Knight of the Woods), Ranger 26/CoT 4/Rogue 10 Click Here _________________ “Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it: and this I know, my lords, that where law ends, tyranny begins!” ~ William Pitt (Lord Chatham) to the British House of Lords (January, 1770)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 05/30/07 05:03
Now now, You see you got it all Wrong, This build would crank out some nice dmg here, its a str based. Someone else made it, So ill post it for you all tosee, now im making it and wondering How in the world to make it better... Even if i have to drop some feats to imrpove the AB and to knock off most of the -?? To the weapons main and off hand so here it is the build by! Talamier
Arashi the Humble Samurai Human Fighter 12 / Weaponmaster 19 / Monk 9
AB 48/43/38/33 (Mundane Katana) Dual Wield AB 44/39/34/29 44/39 (Mundane Katana) Damage Main 1-10+17 15-20x3 Damage Off 1-10+11 15-20x3 BAB 29 Base AC 23 HP 522(Max)
Saves: Fort 24 (+4 vs Spells) Reflex 24 (+4 vs Spells) Will 18 (+4 vs Spells)
Dicipline 43 Heal 43 Spellcraft 20 Spot 43 Tumble 40 16 extra skill points
That's a nice build, but why do you say we got it all wrong? for starters, just changing the weapon katana to kama will increase its dual-wield AB, being a STR based you shouldn't need a katana, kama will even be better in the end anyway, since being a monk you don't need to take Exotic Weapon and you would end with 9 APR with Flurry, so I would change that about the build there, besides, there isn't anything very special about it, you can get better stats out of a Fighter / Cleric / Weapon Master easily, so don't overglorify that build there.
but no, it's not a dual wielder nor it's meant to ever be one.
though I'd say -3/-3 is more fair due to the fact that you'll need 15 DEX for starters, which will make you lower initial stats compared to a STR based 8 DEX build. I find it to be a matter of real STR scores, nasty RDDs can get base STR scores in the 40s, which adds bonus of about +8 damage or more if buffed, also the fact that the two handed weapon gets a higher dice in regular hits, in such cases I'll always pick a Greatsword over two kurkis, two handed weapon bonus STR loses a lot of real efficiency if your base STR score is below 30.
I think DR is the only situation that favors 2hander over dual-wielding because of the number of attacks the better AB. More damage in total. Even i high STR builds, since very rarely do all your damage come from STR, and the total damage bonus for your best attacks ends up the same anyway. Ask Kail, I think he has done extensive studies, ;p .