i've looked through quite a few faqs on building of characters, especially from gamefaqs.com, but these are exactly heavy on details on the whys and wherefores of the choices made during the building process.
does anyone have any ideas or opinions? i do hope to be able to build pure class builds for every class (except the prestige classes... for now...)
This is one of the characters i've been playing. maybe this can get us started? i've always been partial to elves...
currently i've been focusing on discpline and parry (yes, i know parry sux but i like it more for the roleplaying value than anything...) but i'm not very happy with the build i'm playing with as it seems very weak for some reason. There is a tendency to miss a lot and i can't even really turn undead. Some help perhaps?
i've looked through quite a few faqs on building of characters, especially from gamefaqs.com, but these are exactly heavy on details on the whys and wherefores of the choices made during the building process.
Every guide that I have found outside of this site was completely useless. They were based on items from the OC, completely loathed multiclassing and offered little insight on building.
I would go STR 14, DEX 10, CON 12, WIS 14, INT 12, CHA 15 (racial adjustments done). Either way, Elves don't go very well with full plate because of their +2 DEX which is wasted.
Quote: currently i've been focusing on discpline and parry (yes, i know parry sux but i like it more for the roleplaying value than anything...) but i'm not very happy with the build i'm playing with as it seems very weak for some reason. There is a tendency to miss a lot and i can't even really turn undead. Some help perhaps?
Apart from the fact that Parry isn't very useful, it will be less useful with full plate, because of the Armor Check Penalty.
Also, at low levels there's a lot of missing, because die rolls are very important at that stage of character development, and those are random. _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
12 DEX with an Elf? look, if a race gives you bonus to a stat that means you increase that stat up to 16 minimum, since you didn't the only thing you get is a penalty to CON. Take human, 1 more feat, 1 more skill/level and stay at 14 CON, better stats overall.
I'd take 16 STR and 14 CHA instead, since it's more playable to hit and deal damage from the start.
Now, for the multiclassing tutorial:
Pure builds are always weaker than multiclassed ones (considering you're smart and multiclass correctly), why? because as you level up your class will start gaining powerful bonuses every time slower, for example, once you get the divine feats and all the Paladin spells taking more Paladin will only increase your Lay on Hands and give epic bonus feats, while taking another class can increase a lot more in a few levels, for example, 4 Fighter levels are enough to take Epic Weapon Specialization and deal +6 damage on all your attacks, if you take Monk from the start and take kamas a single Monk level increases your APR from 4 to 6 with -1 AB penalty and using Flurry of Blows you take 7 APR, very worth it, both cases here Fighter or Monk make damage output rise a lot like more Paladin will never have achieved, now take both and test a Monk 1 / Fighter 4 / Paladin 35 against your Paladin 40 and the pure paladin is going to be owned.
I hope that was clear enough of why pure builds aren't the top notch. So if you ask me, I never make pure builds, I don't like them.
Of cours you need to be careful for XP penalty when multiclassg, another reason to take Human over Elf.
I've never checked gamefaqs for Neverwinter Nights, but if you want to learn building this is the right place. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/03/07 16:58
Quote: Posted 12/03/07 16:51 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia I hope that was clear enough of why pure builds aren't the top notch. So if you ask me, I never make pure builds, I don't like them.
Arcane casters (even divine) are just fine pure, but I'm sure you knew that already _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
Edited By rafa10pj on 12/03/07 18:31
True, Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Clerics are pretty strong without multiclassing, but heck, they will always be even better multiclassing, that's my point. I wouldn't use a caster Druid or Cleric without taking Monk like I wouldn't take a Sorcerer without Paladin or Blackguard and a Wizard without Bard or Rogue.
At any rate, even only 1 level of Bard or Rogue usually helps a lot if only for the skilldumps.
The deal with multiclassing is gaining the most amount of powerful bonuses with the least amount of levels, and trying to mix classes that require the same feats or stats so they complement each other's abilities. WIS synergy between Monk and Druid/Cleric is obvious as CHA synergy with Sorcerer and Blackguard/Paladin, those are easy choices to recognize why multiclassing is better. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/03/07 19:16
Yes, multiclasses are always more powerful. However, I meant that casters aren't as bad as other classes when left pure. Just go for 38 levels, take Spell Penetration and hello! You are now a 40th level caster! Uhm... yes... you get the point
Hi guys,
Thanks for the input!
I understand the bonuses inherent in multiclassing and do have a few multiclass characters which i've completed the official campaigns with.
It's just that after playing a few online games with multiclass characters, i was wondering how a pure class build would fare. Apparently not very well, not even in the official campaigns... so wasn't sure whether i was doing something wrong.
So... this is more in the nature of an experiment and hope you all can help me with this. Thanks!!
oh yes... btw i've been looking through the various builds in the sticky on Pure Class builds... i've noted that the builds are all for various races which builds on the strengths of the races...
Me, i'd like to make a build effective with all the different races... I've started with Elf because i've already have a interesting back-story for this character... hope you guys can help!
Well, I say Elf is a bad choice for a non-DEX-based build, no idea why you do that, I hate it when people say because of roleplay, because that's like if you said you're using a fire sword because those look cool even though you are fighting fire elementals, it just doesn't make any strategic sense.
Overall, the race change won't be extremely dramatic or anything, so you should survive. SO, what help you need? for a Paladin take Divine Might and increase STR, you can buff up your CHA when you get the spells, you can increase CHA but don't waste too much or your AB will suck, take melee fighting feats such as Weapon Focus, Blind-Fight, Improved Critical, etc, there isn't much else to add... you can make the build and post it at the builds forum, or heck just here, then we'll criticize it for possible improvements. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Thax, while I agree with everything you say, there is one thing i dont agree with! if that makes sense?
I have used elf many times and NOT added to dex at all. There are many reasons to take a race vs stat bonus. My elf cleric i would put dex at 12 though, like in the pal above, cuz that is all the dex bonus you get when wearing full plate! The blanket statement to put a stat that you recieve a bonus in to 16 isnt truthful and is infact, wasteful of stat points when you only get 12 counting to ac anyway... but other than that, keep up the good work! _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
What was just that? if you had 16 DEX you just wouldn't wear a full plate, that's obvious, and it's hardly the point. You take at least 16 on the stat your race improves because you took that race for it, not the other way around, if you don't want to take 16 DEX then don't take a race that icreases DEX.
You say you 12 DEX is enough, and I know it's true, so then why take Elf for? that only reduces your CON as far as stat modifiers, and he's not making a build that benefits from the other racial bonuses.
You can do with any race, but the idea is to make the build stronger than it is now and Elf gives no real benefits while other races do, the lack of taking the benefits is a penalty itself. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/04/07 20:34
elf = free longsword rapier bow feats for non martial class!
I have built many many half orc builds in the last year all because of the 2 str bonus, so I agree totally with your suggestion. I just dont want people to not build a certain idea cuz thax says they mustnt
whoa guys, relax... no need to get all fired up...
i'm inclined to agree with Thax in that yes, maybe if you're not building a DEX based build, Elf might be a bad choice.
However, that kinds of defeats my purpose here coz I'd like to create a build that works, no matter the race, as the different builds available are all race-specific and I think some peeps might prefer other races. Another "excuse" (if you want to call it that...) is, well, i kinda grew up reading all sorts of fantasy novels, and sometimes the heroes don't really fit into the stereotypical depictions of the races and the classes they took, so that's what i'd like to do as well. I just started out with Elf mainly coz i'm partial to Elves.
so let's put all that aside and maybe you can suggest some different starting stats for the various races? Just keep in mind, class is more important than race. So i guess it'd be okay for a high-STR Elf rather than a DEX-based one.
Hopes this clarifies some stuff so we won't need to keep on debating this.
I'll be back soon to try to post a build for you guys to dissect.
Thanks guys!!
rafa: why Int 12? i would have thought CHA, WIS & STR be more important to a paladin?
question:
first feat? skill distribution? any opinions?
Quote: Posted 12/05/07 01:15 (GMT) -- Coruvian rafa: why Int 12? i would have thought CHA, WIS & STR be more important to a paladin?
Extra skill points. As an Elf Paladin you'll have 2 skill points per level, enough for Discipline and Taunt, but not for cross-classing Tumble or Spellcraft. _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
i can understand why tumble but why Spellcraft?
Quote: I just dont want people to not build a certain idea cuz thax says they mustnt
Darn, I almost made it.
Quote: Just keep in mind, class is more important than race.
Well, it's a pure build... so there isn't much to do about classes.
As for stats, Paladin is the most hard class IMO, you pretty much require all stats except DEX here... but you can try a low INT build and take only Discipline, but rafa's point is that Tumble gives 1 AC for every 5 ranks and Spellcraft give +1 to all saves vs spells for every 5 ranks, that's why you would want to have skills.
Starting feats should be those that make your character playable, Weapon Focus is a regular one to take soon, Blind-Fight, Toughness, or you could go for Divine Might and Divine Shield, but you need Power Attack as pre-requisite. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/05/07 05:22
Hi peeps,
As promised, here's the first 10 levels of the elven paladin. Am gonna try him out now. Let me know whether i should change anything.
Items Weapon: Longsword Shield: Tower Shield Armor: Full Plate Helmet: Spike Helmet Cloak: Nymph Cloak +1 Bracers/Gauntlets: Bracers of Armor +1 Belt: Lesser Belt of Guiding Light Boots: Boots of Striding +1 Amulet: Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Rings: Ring of Resistance +1, Ring of Protection +2
Itemswise, i've tried to keep it close to what you would basically get during the first few chapters of the original OC.
Comments?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/05/07 08:55
Just a note, your listed AB is +12, but with a longsword it will be +13.
As for skills, I wouldn't leave Taunt out. As a Paladin, you will be focusing in CHA more or less, thus having a lower AB. Taunt helps you to get even with Fighters. Considering you have a CHA bonus to saves due to Divine Grace, I'd skip Spellcraft and just cross-class Tumble. Of course, at level 20 it means only +2 AC, but at level 40 it means +4 AC, nothing to sneeze at. _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
Edited By rafa10pj on 12/05/07 11:50
is taunting effective? especially in PvMs? wouldn't it provoke attacks of opportunity?
Every little bit helps when it goes to AC...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/05/07 12:33
Quote: Posted 12/05/07 12:31 (GMT) -- Coruvian is taunting effective? especially in PvMs? wouldn't it provoke attacks of opportunity?
It is. Taunt can lower an enemy's AC up to -6, and that's an effective +6 to your AB. As for AoOs, you shouldn't care too much. You'll only lose your Dodge AC, which is Tumble AC and Divine Shield AC in this character, IIRC. Just don't try it when surrounded by heavy-hitting m0bs.
ermz... i'm no expert so can i just clarify?
Taunt only works on a single enemy at one time right? for 5 rounds IIRC?
But if i'm fighting low level mobs, i wouldn't really need it right? (kinda like overkill) and if i'm fighting high level mobs i can't use it either coz i'll be swarmed under?
I don't play much PvPs (i sux at them big time and my internet tends to lag) so i don't know much about whether it's effective there?
kinda unsure about this... help?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/06/07 11:25
Just try it on high AC enemies, you'll see... Let's get in some maths: say you needed a roll of 19 + your AB to hit an enemy. You stand the first two rounds swinging at the air, until you realize you have invested in Taunt. You Taunt him and your AC drops a few points, enough for your target to get one swing at you maybe. However, he AC has also dropped, but much more than yours, and now you only need a 13+AB to hit him. See how better your odds are now?
Also, Taunt has the advantage that the effective AB you acquire doesn't count towards the +20 AB cap.
Edited By rafa10pj on 12/06/07 11:41
okay i've tried substituting Taunt for Spellcraft but it doesn't seem to work very well for me.
Out of 10 combat trials against various mobs (highest rating Easy), the Taunt skill don't make any difference against the ones which i miss consistently (my char still misses) and it leaves me very vulnerable to AoO (especially against creatures like the manticore). Am i doing something wrong? I've followed the training layout i've posted previously, aside from the substitution.
I've been using the Halls of Advanced Training Deluxe - HotU + SoU edition for the training. Is there any other mods which any of you would recommend? maybe one where u can select the mobs to fight?
Hmm
Quote: Posted 12/03/07 12:54 (GMT) -- Coruvian i've always been partial to elves...
Quote: Posted 12/04/07 02:05 (GMT) -- Coruvian I've started with Elf because i've already have a interesting back-story for this character... hope you guys can help!
Quote: Posted 12/04/07 20:23 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia You take at least 16 on the stat your race improves because you took that race for it, not the other way around, if you don't want to take 16 DEX then don't take a race that icreases DEX.
Unless your roleplaying your rpg .
I'm not trying to restoke any flames, just thought I'd point out the most obvious (and overlooked) reason.
_________________ In the name of justice, I spite all misdeeds. Darkness has no power that light cannot undo, and even alone, I will not fear the evils that spread throughout our land, because I know that glory will prevail.
I don't get it... don't ask me about roleplying, I have the same fun with a small halfing wizard than with a half orc brawler I just care about killing first. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Hi guys,
while i appreciate the comments, i really don't see how it's helping... sorry...
not to be uppity but i thought i've already stated my reasons for such a build... so could we just move on from there? coz your posts are kinda breaking up the thread of discussion... hope u can understand...
Thanks peeps...
how does one get around Damage Reduction? in one of the combat trials i had, i went up against a warrior mummy that seems to reduce all damage done to it to 0.
help?
Quote: Posted 12/07/07 06:03 (GMT) -- Coruvian i thought i've already stated my reasons for such a build...
And I thought thax over looked your reasoning.
Quote: coz your posts are kinda breaking up the thread of discussion... hope u can understand...
I do and Im sorry.
Quote: Posted 12/07/07 06:05 (GMT) -- Coruvian how does one get around Damage Reduction? in one of the combat trials i had, i went up against a warrior mummy that seems to reduce all damage done to it to 0. help?
And sorry thax, I do agree with your reasoning just thought you overlooked his.
_________________ Spirit, It is the hero's strength, the mother's resilience, and the poor man's armor. It cannot be broken, and it cannot be taken away. This I must believe. ~ Drizzt Do'Urden
Thanx for understanding sbte...
Actually i've read that particular entry in the NWNwikia... I think i kinda understand that... but i guess i phrased my question wrongly... just to make sure:
As stated in the wikia, i will need an enhancement to my weapon in order to bypass the damage reduction totally... failing that, i would have to do more damage than amount that will be soaked by the mob's damage reduction... correct?
My question is: if i do not have the weapon enhancement and i am still not able to deal sufficient damage to overcome the damage soaked, are there any alternatives? or is it just not possible?
why i'm asking is coz currently i am still using the basic items which can be found in the original OC, mostly items with the minimum bonuses in order to test out the build fully, rather than rely on equipment enhancements to get my char through it...
Yes, i know equipment does play a part in the build but i believe the build must be inherently strong enough to be able to hold its own without over-relying on the equipment... otherwise it won't be much of a build would it?
on a side note, taunt wouldn't make a difference right?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/07/07 08:00
You have some alternatives, though not much and they all entail spellcasting. Some Paladin spells offer weapon enhancements, such as Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon. These will help you get over Damage Reduction, as well as elemental damage (unless the mummy also has elemental damage reduction, which I doubt). Another alternative would be to take the Divine Might. Taunt will not help at all.
As for testing modules, search the vault for the Pretty Good Character Creator or the Novice To Epic something something. Those let you choose the spawns and are the best, in my opinion.
Edited By rafa10pj on 12/07/07 10:43
Thanx rafa!
I've just realized that the mummy is undead and used lay on hands as well as the spell cure light wounds to kill it... but that wouldn't work on normal mobs...
I've went back to try again tho... this time with Bless Weapon... it made quite a difference... even when i was PvPing against a same level Fighter...
I've gotten the Novice to Epic Character Maker to test my char... hope it works...
just to backtrack a bit... i'm not having much luck with the Taunt skill... am i doing something wrong? is there something i need to adjust?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/07/07 11:22
Quote: Posted 12/07/07 11:06 (GMT) -- Coruvian i'm not having much luck with the Taunt skill... am i doing something wrong? is there something i need to adjust?
Maybe your to far away to taunt your opponent, you need to be in melee touch range (2.25 meters). Other than that IDK sorry.
_________________ Spirit, It is the hero's strength, the mother's resilience, and the poor man's armor. It cannot be broken, and it cannot be taken away. This I must believe. ~ Drizzt Do'Urden
That's what makes DR so useful, it's hard to do anything about it in the moment if you're not a caster. Holy Sword works as dispel, so Premonition is breachable, but natural DR is always hard to break.
As a Paladin you get Greater Magical Weapon, which has a long-term duration, so that's your best shot if you don't get high enhancement weapons. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/07/07 18:32
Quote: Posted 12/07/07 11:06 (GMT) -- Coruvian just to backtrack a bit... i'm not having much luck with the Taunt skill... am i doing something wrong? is there something i need to adjust?
Wait, do you actually see the message "Taunt: success" or "Taunt: failure" floating around? There's a problem with Taunt IIRC, in that when you select it, it will queue after the attack action. However, the attack action will not end until there are no more reachable enemies or until you end it yourself by clicking the icon. To solve this, cancel the attack, wait for the Taunt message to appear and then re-engage.
Thanx Thax for the info... i don't suppose there's any way for me to get DR for my char legally without using armor? any spells maybe?
I don't have any problems using Taunt, aside from that little niggling detail about it queuing after the Combat icon as mentioned... I do get the Taunt: success emote but the problem is that even after it shows as being successful, my char still misses consistently... am i doing something wrong? i haven't used taunt before so i'm not sure...
Well, you can take EDR, however, for an Elven pure Paladin, that's definitely a bad feat choice (pre-requisite is 21 CON, your other stats would suffer too much). You can't cast Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin, Premonition, or any other spell that gives DR since you can't use arcane scrolls as a Paladin. So the answer is "no". _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Quote: Posted 12/08/07 03:33 (GMT) -- Coruvian I don't have any problems using Taunt, aside from that little niggling detail about it queuing after the Combat icon as mentioned... I do get the Taunt: success emote but the problem is that even after it shows as being successful, my char still misses consistently... am i doing something wrong? i haven't used taunt before so i'm not sure...
If your AB was 26 points lower than your enemy's AC, then taunting him will do you no good... you'll still need a natural 20 to hit him.
hmmz... maybe i should try playing through the OC instead... thanx for the tip... i'll go take some time to iron this out...
Hi, i've been testing the build by going through the OC although i haven't got very far yet... so far so good but i have found no practical application for the Taunt skill... are there any other skills (aside from Spellcraft as recommended previously) worth learning?
Prepared Spells 1st-Level: Divine Favor, Bless, Resistance, Deafening Clang 2nd-Level: Aura of Glory, Bull Strength, Cat's Grace, Resist Elements 3rd-Level: Prayer, Cure Moderate Wounds x2 4th-Level: Holy Sword, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement
Items Weapon: Longsword +7 Shield: Tower Shield +7 Armor: Full Plate +6 Helmet: Spike Helmet Cloak: Nymph Cloak +7 Bracers/Gauntlets: Bracers of Armor +10 Belt: Belt of Fire Giant Strength Boots: Boots of Striding +10 Amulet: Amulet of Natural Armor +7 Rings: Ring of Fortitude +10, Ring of Protection +10
I've used the Novice to Epic Character Maker mod to fully test the build and managed to kill a Dracolich (Challenge Rating Overpowering) 1-v-1 when fully buffed with all my spells, Divine Might and Divine Shield (took quite a bit of time coz it kept on healing itself... ). I also managed to kill it with only Divine Might and Divine Shield on but it takes a lot of healing in between...
I still have can't seem to face off against a Prismatic Dragon though... any ideas? and i haven't tried PvP...
btw could you guys just look thru the build and maybe let me know what changes i should make? alternative feats, different spells or attribute increase?
Thanx!
Edited By Coruvian on 12/11/07 14:06
do you think my char is too over-powered with the items i've equipped?
btw i've installed the Henchman Inventory & Battle AI mod... seems to make the enemies more than a little smarter... tough fights!
Edited By Coruvian on 12/11/07 14:50
Too overpowered? that term does not exist, it's never strong enough.
Hmmm, I say you take too much CHA, your character hits with STR and you kill in melee, so you should focus on hitting first, everything else is less important, I wouldn't take CHA higher than 18, so that you get at least a regular STR score and a decent AB. Your AB with a longsword is +37, which is quite low for a meleer. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
True... it's never strong enough... but in this case, i'm just wondering whether the items give too much of an advantage? like maybe a little too dependent on item bonuses?
18 CHA? is that enough? and the rest all goes to STR?
what about feats? any feats i should change?
I'll go test them out now...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/11/07 17:34
Well, there's never an agreement on how much CHA a Paladin should take, but your STR needs to be at least about 26 if you intend to make a good meleer or your AB will be too low.
Feats... I might take off Extra Turning to get Blind-Fight pre-epic and use all your non-bonus epic feats (they're seven) on Great Strength, unless you end with an odd STR score, then only six of them. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
I tried out your recommendations and it seems to work pretty well... i did make a slight modification though... i only took 5 levels of Great Strength (with all the stat increases, my STR came up to 26 exactly)... the other 2 levels i invested in Great Cleave and Overwhelming Critical since i was upping my Strength so much...
btw do i need Extra Turning?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/12/07 05:31
You don't, extra turning gives you +3 turns per day, which becomes +3 Divine Might or Divine Shield per day, it's fine if you had too many feats to spare, but you don't, so it's unnecessary.
If you're taking Overwhelming Critical you should go take Devastating Critical already, however, you have no need to drop Great Strength for it, Overwhelming Critical and Devastating Critical available as Paladin Bonus feats, so just drop Epic Toughness for those, Great Cleave is not, so there's nothing to do about it.
If you take Overwhelming Critical as bonus feat (which should be at level 35 I think), that will bump your Great Strength V sooner, so you'll get your 25 STR score needed for Devastating Critical at level 36 and will be able to pick Devastating Critical at level 38 as bonus feat
Upping STR "so much" is also something that never happens, high STR scores are around 34 (17 initial + 10 by levels + Great Strength VII give you 34) and above 40 for Red Dragon Disciples (not the case, I know). The highest STR score is attained only with a Half-Orc and has a value of 37 (45 for RDDs) since there is no class that gives Great Strength as bonus feat. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/12/07 06:11
Isn't Devastating Critical banned from many servers? and if i drop the 2 ranks of Epic Toughness (-40 HP), isn't that quite a big loss?
What would be a good STR score for a Paladin? i wouldn't want CHA to suffer too much... it's still kinda impt for the class bonuses... right?
sorry... kinda noob at this... previously i just kinda picked whatever looked good when playing my game... hope u all can bear with me when i sound like a total idiot...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/12/07 09:31
Quote: Posted 12/12/07 09:27 (GMT) -- Coruvian Isn't Devastating Critical banned from many servers? and if i drop the 2 ranks of Epic Toughness (-40 HP), isn't that quite a big loss?
Aye, it is. That is way many of us choose to avoid it. And Epic Toughness isn't quite useful. It is one of those feats people take when they have nothing more to spend their feats on.
Quote: What would be a good STR score for a Paladin? i wouldn't want CHA to suffer too much... it's still kinda impt for the class bonuses... right?
Depends... CHA-based, STR-based? Generally, you'll need a 42 AB minimum for a meleer, unless going for the CHA route.
so in this case, i can actually just make do with Overwhelming Crit and totally do away with Epic Toughness and pick up 2 more ranks of Great Strength instead....
on a side note, why isn't Epic Toughness useful? i would have thought that more HP = higher survivability, esp since AC & SR can only be stretched so far... what's more 80 out of 489 is like 16% of ur life (figures based on the original draft, not the later one i tried with Overwhelming Crit and Great Strength)...
hmmz... what would be a good stat for a STR-based? and for a CHA-based? the uses of each?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/12/07 17:04
Taking Overwhelming Critical is a big feat investment, so not taking Devastating Critical when you already meet all the requirements just sounds wrong, Devastating Critical is very powerful. If it's banned where you play then there's nothing to do, don't take it, but you can't just assume it is.
First of all, Toughness is better than Epic Toughness, Toughness gives +1 per level for +40 at level 40 and Epic Toughness gives only 20 each, so you must take Toughness before taking Epic Toughness. Second, if you wanted HP so badly you'd change your race to Human to start with 14 CON and have an extra feat for Toughness pre-epic, that's +60 HP for being human over the Elf variant Third, well, +20 HP per feat isn't impressive at all, that's about 1 hit or less, so even though it's useful to increase your HP, just about any other feat is better if you can pick something else, I might take Epic Toughness before maybe Epic Skill Focus, but most other feats like Epic Prowess, Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin, Overwhelming Critical or Great Strength are more important. Last, if you want HP then make max rolls dude, 489 is not even a multiple of 10, so you obviously rolled your HP like it didn't matter, your HP with 12 CON and Epic Toughness V (as the build you made down there, but you must change one Epic Toughness for Toughness as I said above) should be 540, so you notice how rolling max your HP you can take off a pair of Epic Toughness feats and still end winning HP.
STR increases AB and damage, while CHA increases saves and damage/AC using Divine Might/Shield. The actual damage gained by STR is the same than CHA, the difference is Divine Might breaches DRs but the duration is low while STR is permanent, however, comparing AB versus AC is complicated, the increase in damage by Divine Might becomes useless without AB, and your AC won't become unreachable anyway, so in general terms I believe AB is most decisive, just try out both ways, you'll notice it's easier to kill when your AB is higher, but CHA should still be good enough to use Divine Might or Divine Shield when in trouble, since your Paladin can buff CHA, I consider 18 is about enough, but there is no fix value, in the end you pick as much as you want, I just advice you that not taking any STR at all will make so that your character won't hit. _________________ Join the Pre-epic Character Builds Guild for builds capped at level 20 and level 30.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/12/07 18:32
hmmz... makes sense...
i've went back to test out the feats tree though... although the Criticals are Paladin Bonus feats, i still had to take 5 ranks of Great Strength 1st which were not bonus feats... meaning the first 6 non-bonus feats had to go to Great Cleave and Great Strength first... However, before i can get Overwhelming Crit as 1 of the bonus feats, i end up having one bonus feat where my only available choices are Epic Toughness I or Epic Reputation (everything else has been taken)... is it worth getting Epic Reputation since i'm working on Taunt? or Epic Toughness?
i've just realized, if i don't take Devastating Crit, i'd probably wind up taking Epic Toughness II or Epic Reputation... doesn't seem that great a tradeoff...
btw aside from Taunt and Spellcraft, any other skills is recommended? what about the Crafting skills? or Search?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/12/07 20:05
I would take Epic Toughness over Epic Reputation, sure thing, I don't even know what Epic Reputation gives, I just know I don't like it taking Epic Toughness because there was nothing else happens a lot on Pure builds, check out the Pure Fighter, you can take lots of Epic Toughness and still have plenty of feats left
As for skills, I usually just take Discipline, Spellcraft and Tumble, perhaps Concentration, since you have a few short-term buffs like Holy Sword and failing a spell would be annoying, other than that are skills that aren't directly related to combat (since you're not a sneaker to be taking Hide and Move Silently). I'm not an expert when it comes to skills actually, since I make mostly low INT builds, lots of people seem to like Set Traps and I think Listen is useful to detect hidden enemies. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/13/07 02:43
here's my second draft for a STR build (the first one would be more of a CHA build)...
Prepared Spells 1st-Level: Divine Favor, Bless, Resistance, Deafening Clang 2nd-Level: Aura of Glory, Bull Strength, Cat's Grace, Resist Elements 3rd-Level: Prayer, Cure Moderate Wounds x2 4th-Level: Holy Sword, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement
Items Weapon: Longsword +7 Shield: Tower Shield +7 Armor: Full Plate +6 Helmet: Spike Helmet Cloak: Nymph Cloak +7 Bracers/Gauntlets: Bracers of Armor +10 Belt: Belt of Fire Giant Strength Boots: Boots of Striding +10 Amulet: Amulet of Natural Armor +7 Rings: Ring of Fortitude +10, Ring of Protection +10
any further changes i should make?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/13/07 08:57
Yeah well, I like this one better (you wouldn't tell right, after I was telling you what to do ).
Your HP is 500, not 389 (400 for 40 levels of d10 Paladin +40 Toughness +40 CON +20 Epic Toughness = 500), when posting builds, the rule goes that HP must be expressed as its max value, even if you don't really do it when you play, because when other people see your build at the forum the max value is the only accurate reference to understand how much HP the build has, so write the max value next time you post a build. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/13/07 17:51
Thanx for ur help dude...
now i just have to adapt this build to Dwarf, Half-Orc, Human, Gnome, Half-Elf and Halfling...
Well, I guess you don't want to know what I think about that. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
haha... i guess i don't...
i've tried the various races... but it seems the Dwarf, Gnome and Halfling base stats would be 1 pt short which i've taken out from CHA... so instead of starting with CHA 15, i have CHA 14...
in this case, when i level up to 40 by following the build, without taking any feats for CHA, i end up at CHA 17... should i then substitute Toughness for 1 rank of Great Charisma to make it even?
and for the Human variant, i have an extra feat which i'm not sure what i should invest in? Great Strength, Great Charisma or Epic Toughness? or are there any other feats worth it?
the Half-Orc variant takes a pretty big hit when starting coz when all the other stats are set, CHA only comes up to 13... which makes the STR-based build the only viable one... in this case, should i invest more points in CHA? how much more (if any)?
Edited By Coruvian on 12/14/07 13:33
Just out of curiosity, why would you want to build pure Paladins with all the available races? Forget that, why would you want to build an elf pure Paladin? _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
I'd just thought it would be interesting... like i said, kinda like an experiment... coz like everyone seems to focus on multiclassing (and yes, i agree that multi-classing actually is probably better than having a pure class...) however multiclassing is probably more confusing that building a pure build coz there are so many different ways u can go about multi-classing, ergo people spent more time on it and there never seemed to be any worthy pure builds that anyone has tried...
so i kinda wondered what it'd be like to play a pure build... so i actually started off by looking for pure builds available to try out... didn't manage to find many... and those few i found were more or less limited to certain races or not heavy on details... Humans are all well and fine but i'm more of an Elven person...
does this makes sense to you?
anyway... why Elf?
aside from the fact that Elves appeal to me most (they're older, usually wiser and better trained... what more can i say?)... probably coz i've been re-reading my Dark Elf, Icewind Dale, Hunter's Blades, Dragonlance Chronicles, Legends etc etc trilogies lately... and i do have most of the 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 edition D&D rulebooks... was flipping through and reading the entry on Corellon Larethion and found a mention of elven paladins but there didn't seem to be much info on them... so i looked in the Cormanthyr rulebook which also didn't mention much... so i thought i'd try it out here...
and since while i'm at it, why limit myself to just elven? i'm sure someone out there might be interested to see how an halfling paladin would turn out... and since it's a fantasy setting, who knows? maybe there IS a halfling/gnome/half-orc paladin out there...
i'll be moving on to all the other classes once i've settled this one... maybe Sorceror for a change... maybe even going on to build Purest Prestige Class builds... hope u guys can help me through them... i'm not really a newbie (i've been playing NWN for about 3 yrs?) but i'm not good at it either (me low INT, low WIS)... and while i have the rulebooks, they apply more to the tabletop game than NWN...
oh... and i have a custom world (but only on tabletop)where my char is an elven paladin with an extensive backstory... in fact my custom world has maps, nations, histories, backstories, NPCs with full background, everything... so that's probably another reason why elven paladin...
i think my explanation's kinda jumbled... hope u can make some sense out of it...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/14/07 14:20
A note on this: there are lots of pure builds (40 levels base class) and pure PrC builds (30 levels PrC, 10 levels base class). I think there are stickied threads with links to the builds. _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
is there? damn... couldn't seem to find many tho... could u maybe direct me to them? the url and/or topic?then i wouldn't have to waste everybody's time on this...
sorry for all the trouble...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/14/07 17:14
Here
It took me 30 seconds to find it. Sometimes, research goes a long way. _________________ "Hats off and applause to rogues and evolution"
Quote: Posted 12/14/07 13:28 (GMT) -- rafa10pj
Just out of curiosity, why would you want to build pure Paladins with all the available races? Forget that, why would you want to build an elf pure Paladin?
I was very insistent that Human is better, but when roleplay comes in the middle, sense is useless.
You can always just use the build searcher and select minimum 40 levels of a single class to find pure builds.
Quote: Posted 12/14/07 13:26 (GMT) -- Coruvian
i've tried the various races... but it seems the Dwarf, Gnome and Halfling base stats would be 1 pt short which i've taken out from CHA... so instead of starting with CHA 15, i have CHA 14...
in this case, when i level up to 40 by following the build, without taking any feats for CHA, i end up at CHA 17... should i then substitute Toughness for 1 rank of Great Charisma to make it even?
and for the Human variant, i have an extra feat which i'm not sure what i should invest in? Great Strength, Great Charisma or Epic Toughness? or are there any other feats worth it?
the Half-Orc variant takes a pretty big hit when starting coz when all the other stats are set, CHA only comes up to 13... which makes the STR-based build the only viable one... in this case, should i invest more points in CHA? how much more (if any)?
Well, for the human you can take Great Cleave pre-epic and toss Toughness to grab Great Strength VII
You should end with an even CHA modifier, dropping Toughness is a choice, starting with less CHA is the other choice (for example, Dwarf reduces CHA, so increase CON). Do whatever you want, it's not so critical... _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Good point... i've gotta try that out for the Human...
so for the Dwarf, i could probably just leave CHA at maybe 16 and invest the additional point in CON... plus 1 rank in Great CON to bring it up to 14...
btw i've tried using that build searcher before this but it doesn't come up with any matches when i search for pure class builds... i don't think it has any in its database... i've tried all the base classes... zilch... even when i put min 1 level...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/14/07 19:44
rafa:
sorry to disappoint but i did read that particular topic and the links contained therein...
like i said, most of the builds seemed limited to that 1 or 2 races... and they don't really explain why! why not alternatives? that's also why i've tried building one here... like the Paladin build by GhostNWN for example... i realize that my ending STR build is very much similar to his with the exception of Overwhelming & Devastating Crit... it might not be better but it is DIFFERENT... we've managed to come up with a CHA build which is weaker than the STR one melee-wise... but could potentially do well against undead and could probably draw even with the STR build when fully buffed (after all, i did manage to get that Dracolich)... the other races would prob require variations on the build (as evidenced by the Dwarf and Half-Orc), not covered by that particular build by GhostNWN...
so there you have it... quite perfectionistic huh?
Thanx for pointing it out tho...
Edited By Coruvian on 12/14/07 20:22
Why limited to one or two races? simple, because those are the best races. By the Way, if you try a Pure Dwarven defender of Arcane Archer your race choice is stuck.
Pure builds are on the searcher, that's for sure, in order to find Pure builds in the searcher you write that the character you're looking for must have from 40 to 40 levels of one class, if you look for it to have minimum 1 you get all choices and if you pick maximum 1 well you find no pure builds because you're asking for maximum 1 level and you want minimum 40 levels. I just checked it for the base classes: the searcher pops 2 Barbarians, 1 Bard, 2 Clerics, 1 Druid, 2 Fighters, 6 Monks, 1 Paladin, 2 Rangers, 2 Rogues, 0 Sorceres, 5 Wizards. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
well... if that's the case, u probably won't have much use for the Half-Elf or Gnome races coz they are easily replaced by the others...
that's the rub, the idea is to make a build which is still good enough no matter the race or any inherent weaknesses by using a good combi of skills, feats and attribute increases...
Thanx for the tip... finally managed to get it working... it used to come up with No Matches for me... it seems that putting "1 to 40 levels" don't work... oh well... the builds available are still the same as the ones available in the thread rafa provided tho...
Quote: Posted 12/15/07 05:51 (GMT) -- Coruvian
well... if that's the case, u probably won't have much use for the Half-Elf or Gnome races coz they are easily replaced by the others...
that's the rub, the idea is to make a build which is still good enough no matter the race or any inherent weaknesses by using a good combi of skills, feats and attribute increases...
I'll go ahead and chime in on this conversation now. I am all for Roleplaying but I dont think a thread is needed to provide builds for each class using every race. For one, most people who Roleplay there builds arent usually looking for other peoples builds to play and two, lets say that most people would agree a Human would be the best choice for a straight Paladin build. I believe that most people could just use the search engine for only 40 levels of Paladin and after looking over those builds could make there own adjustments based on Race to closely match what has already been done. I dont think the differences would be all that major looking at the whole picture. Sure you could say things like "it might be a better idea to focus on STR instead of CHA when using Dwarf or Half-Orc because of those Races penalty to CHA." Well, after all of that, I dont have a problem with what your doing. I enjoy playing straight class builds and also using races that most people wouldnt choose to do it. I'm just stating what I think most people would agree about this topic. I could be wrong.
Every build can be played with any race except DwD and AA, you usually only choose the most convenient one, that's why they are different, I would find boring to play the same build with all the races.
In fact, when you go through the builds you may notice that sometimes lack of originality is criticized, and I don't mean that the builder has no good ideas but rather that someone else already made the build before him (or extremely similar) and making it again makes it basically a copy, so in terms of indexing builds, having two equal builds isn't of much use. What happens is that just a change of race would probably won't be enough to consider one build different from the another, they're still copies, just a race adaptation, which is minimum change, perhaps you could end losing 1 or even 2 important stat modifiers when jumping from Human to Dwarf on a Paladin, but the build is still pretty much the same, same feats, same leveling, same combat abilities, same spells, same fighting strategies, only slight different stats, and hopefully a different setting each time, I don't find anything interesting in doing so, and I don't understand any reason in picking the races that don't benefit the most either.
I would care less if people start making their builds with all the races but the idea of posting each for every race is heavily unnecessary and not even related to a build being Pure or not, the original post didn't seem focused on all-race adaptation, rather, pure builds of all classes, I just brought the race topic when I suggested a change of race in the build to make it stronger, we should probably head back to the Pure build topic... I'm tired of the race topic. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
). I also managed to kill it with only Divine Might and Divine Shield on but it takes a lot of healing in between...
Well, I guess you don't want to know what I think about that.
even when i put min 1 level...