I am trying to work a pure lvl 40 Bard, trying to get the most of the class in some aspects, as I am sure to fail miserably in trying to make him exceed in all a Bard can do. That being said I re-read the Iconic Bard thread and also took into consideration some comments (kindly) given to my Singing Spear build. Now for the actual discussion.

Should a Bard focus solely on CHA if one is to be pure? A better charisma will improve his spell casting (spells per day, DCs, spells known) and Bard Song (still not enough to fulfill the requirements for the best Song), but in going that way the Bard in question becomes hard to play in most modules/servers.

I have my views on the matter, but I would like to hear what you guys think would add more to the guild as far as the build goes, and also what your views are on an iconic build.

Thanks in advance.

Edited By OCNT Dogo on 10/04/08 05:53

Seems like a pure bard would be wasted w/out going CHA, even if only to help in the perform reqs. That said, a pure bard is incredibly wasteful anyways. It's just a bad idea no matter the stat you focus in. (quote)Posted 10/04/08 05:51 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

I am trying to work a pure lvl 40 Bard,
(quote)

Why pure? If you take blackguard just for two levels you can get the charisma added to your saves. Taking more than 30 bard levels gives you no better of a bard song than 30 levels of bard, and spell duration is not as much of a factor when you have 30-40 levels. Icestorm and wounding whispers are your chief spells that actually improve (besides duration) by investing more bard levels beyond level 30. But you are no sorcerer anyway. Focusing on charisma does not help your melee at which you barely can rival the 1/1 BAB classes with song and spells. Level 40 bard with high charisma works well, but there are many high charisma builds that work better. Thanks for the comments so far, and yes, I know a lvl 40 Bard is not optimal. Blackguard, paladin, Fighter, RDD, SD, AA, and many other options would make it a more solid multiclassed build, and probably even more solid with 2 other classes and keeping Bard to 26 or 25 lvls.
But the idea here is building specifically for the Pure Class Builds thread, and in such, trying to get the most that one such Bard could offer/obtain.

So, the build I was toying with until now ends with 18 CHA (+4 mod, +10 with full CHA items). If I go CHA all the way I think the most I can get is 38 (+14 mod, +20 with full CHA items). In practice it means 10 more points in Perform, and all other CHA-based skills (Taunt being the one that attracts me the most) and also spell DCs (negligible I think because Bards get 6th lvl spells at most, and thus can't qualify for Epic Spell Focus).

Maybe I should rephrase my idea/question/discussion. In the environments you guys are used to playing, would this bonus justify the very big difference in playing? I am fully aware that pure builds are not optimal, but I don't think that that should make them unplayable or close to it.

As always, your comments are/were appreciated, and the ones to come even more so. If you want a build that you can solo, you must be able to deal some damage and take some punishment in a fight. You should be able to handle traps and locks etc, and in many environments you also need some social skill to handle difficult situations with dialogue options.
A bard can do all that, but is not best in most situations.
A "well rounded" solo build will need investment in cha and dex (or str).
The bard is a kind of "jack of all trades", and often needs a little multiclassing to become master of some. The exceptions are the song and the skillset.
A powerful bard song/curse song combo can do wonders. And the price to sing for a whole party is the same as if you solo, so here is some "free lunch" for your party. The pay off/investment ratio is best at 16 lvls. But taking bard to 20 levels gives access to the lasting inspiration feat, and the effect of the song on skills is amazing if you can afford a really high lvl song.

The skillset is one of the two best in the game. The only problem is the limited # of skillpoints. A human bard with 14 int gets 7 per lvl. The 3.5 rules gives 9, but most modules stick with the 3.0 rules.

If you can play in a party, you are free to go in different directuions depending on your role. A cha build could be an option here. No, I don't think it's worth it to go straight CHA. I also don't think it's worth it to go for so many bard levels w/out going straight CHA. Might as well get the best song you can, and maybe even make use of a few more spells. That said, I don't think there's any way to build an effective bard 40. Such a thing is a concept build, or a RP build, but in any kind of challenging environment will get eaten alive. Would this maybe justify going STR-based on a pure bard?

Race: Human
Alignment:Any non-Lawful
Playable: 1-40 PvM


Bard 40

Attributes
Str16(28)
Int14
Wis8
Dex10
Con14
Chr14 (18)

Level Guide
1 Bard, Artist, Toughness
2 Bard
3 Bard, Weapon Proficiency: Martial/Exotic
4 Bard, CHA 15
5 Bard
6 Bard, Curse Song
7 Bard
8 Bard, CHA 16
9 Bard, Still Spell
10 Bard
11 Bard
12 Bard, Weapon Focus, STR 17
13 Bard
14 Bard
15 Bard, Skill Focus: Perform
16 Bard, STR 18
17 Bard
18 Bard, Blind Fight
19 Bard
20 Bard, STR 19
21 Bard, Epic Weapon Focus
22 Bard
23 Bard, Lasting Inspiration
24 Bard, Great Str I, STR20
25 Bard
26 Bard, Epic Skill Focus: Perform
27 Bard, Great Str II
28 Bard, Str23
29 Bard, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
30 Bard, Epic Prowess
31 Bard
32 Bard, Str24, Epic Skill Focus: Taunt
33 Bard,Great Str III
34 Bard
35 Bard, Epic Skill Focus: Listen
36 Bard, Great Str IV, Str27
37 Bard
38 Bard, Great Cha I
39 Bard, Great Str V
40 Bard, CHA 18

Combat Vitals
AB: 38/33/28
Self-Buffed AB: 47/42/37 (with Curse Song and Taunt: 59/54/49)
AC: 18 (no items) 26 (Breastplate + Tower Shield)
Self-Buffed AC:41 (43 if including Curse Song)
HP: 360 (392 with Song)

Skills
Discipline: 62 (73)
Listen: 52 (63)
Lore: 42 (53)
Perform: 62 (73)
Spellcraft: 45 (56)
Taunt: 57 (68)
Tumble: 40 (51)
Use Magic Device: 45 (56)

Saves (not sure if the very last numbers are right, maybe he goes over the +10 cap with Spellcraft boni + Bard Song?)
Fort: 18 (20 + song) (22/30 vs spells)
Will: 22 (26 + song) (24/36 vs spells)
Reflex: 21 (24 + song) (31/34 vs spells)


So, floats or sinks?


Edited for spelling.

Edited By OCNT Dogo on 10/06/08 05:25

Why not 30 STR/16 CHA, why do you need 18 CHA
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Quote: meatpimp

Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
The final 18 CHA was due to the fact that I had a Bard Bonus Feat at 38, and unfortunately I can't get another Great Strength with it. Maybe another option would be finishing at DEX 12, but I thought CHA fit the character better.
Quote: Posted 10/06/08 09:58 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

The final 18 CHA was due to the fact that I had a Bard Bonus Feat at 38, and unfortunately I can't get another Great Strength with it. Maybe another option would be finishing at DEX 12, but I thought CHA fit the character better.

Start with less CHA...
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Quote: meatpimp

Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
ROFLMAO! This reminds me of a commercial.. "i want this" "DONT DO IT!!" "I will do this anyway" "DONT" "here is what i will do" "DONT"

I can appreciate that you want a pure build. Unfortunately, Bard is one of those classes that isnt realy a pure build class. What i mean is, when you look at the skill set, and a CLASS feat cannot be reached by normal methods, then why do it? Perform, the singing part of the bard cannot be maxed in a pure build. THere arent enough pluses to it (in what you suggest). So why do it pure? Bard is a diverse class, allowing you easily to rp to RDD, fighter, whatever you want (cept paladin or monk due to alignment issues, easily!).

You have been told by everyone on the post to mix it up, yet you ignore the suggestions. If you have an idea, why ask for help? All of the people who responded to you are very knowlegdable about nwn. You have been given excellent advice. Ignore it at your own boredom.

SInce i am NOT fluent in bard, i suggest that IF you maintain on this insanity, check the perform skill. If it is a charisma based skill, pump the crap out of charisma to the neglect of everything else. Take ALL the feats that add to perform that you can. YOu need the perform up to over 100 to make FULL use of a lv 40 bard song or curse. DONT take lasting inspiration as a lv 40 song is long enough as is. At least this way, you wont be some noob who puts str and charisma to a somewhat wasteful build (yes, taking levels in a class that dont add to a build is wasteful, imvho).

Just my 2 cents. I know what you will do with it
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Quote: Posted 06/28/06 00:22:49 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar

This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Quote: Posted 10/06/08 05:21 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo
So, floats or sinks?
Sinks.

Your skills confuse me. Normally the first number is base ranks, and the second is the modified score, including ESFs and such. I'm guessing that you have the modified rank listed, w/ the bard song boni parenthetical.

Quote: Posted 10/06/08 14:16 (GMT) -- avado
DONT take lasting inspiration as a lv 40 song is long enough as is.
Tsk tsk. W/out any feats, a level 40 bard song is exactly as long as a level 1 bard song. Do, most certainly, take lasting inspirations. In fact, as much as you need the AB, take it at level 21, since you can.

So, no, this isn't the weakest guy ever built, but it's one of the weakest bards I've seen. There are some darned good reasons you don't see pure bards, but, that's been mentioned. Ad naseum even. Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply and suggest/comment. Perhaps due to language and/or cultural differences I was seeing things a tad differently, in regards to my posts and the replies.

I want to add to the guild, even if only a nice curiosity, and while I cannot improve a build here, or come with the innovative and refreshing multiclassing options that people still manage to pull out of their hats, I was never happy with the only Single Class Bard that was in the Guild (on a specific thread about pure builds ONLY, I will post the link if needed)

Obviously I had a bias towards going STR, I tried to play a full support CHA Bard and if the module/server doesn't really give those kind of builds a lot of love, they are very very frustrating, for the moment you don't have a party you are stuck in town. Basically I wanted the build (that's why I posted the draft) to be judged as that, a pure Bard. Maybe I should have posted the Bard that was already in the Guild for reference.

If anyone who posted, commented or suggested something felt that they were ignored, it was not intended for my part.

@ onioneater - Hmm, I will change the skills in my notes here, to make them really base ranks, and inlcude ESF, and everything else later between parenthesis, thank you for the tip.

@ FinneousPJ - Starting with less CHA with a little more STR would mess my stats too much I think, and delay some spellcasting. It is already severely gimped by being a pure class and a Bard no less, so I thought it would be too much.

Edited By OCNT Dogo on 10/06/08 19:29

You could always take another Epic Skill Focus (UMD if you're in a very high magic environment or Spellcraft for another +2 on saves vs spells [useful if you're playing with autofail on 1 turned off]). If you opt for that, start with 15 STR and 12 DEX and take your last ability boost as STR. This will leave you with the same ending STR (26). It also means you don't need to rely on Cat's for that extra +1 AC when wearing plate*, so you can opt for a different level 2 spell.

*I'd drop Toughness and grab Heavy Armor. Or, if you really want the Toughness feat, I'd consider dropping the Weapon Proficiency feat. You can make out just fine with the simple weapons (and you can cast Keen Edge on a sickle). I'd also try to move Blind Fight a little earlier in the build. I find you generally tend to start running into concealed creatures on a semi regular basis around level 10 or so.
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It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 10/06/08 18:40 (GMT) -- onion eater

Quote: Posted 10/06/08 05:21 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo
So, floats or sinks?
Sinks.

Your skills confuse me. Normally the first number is base ranks, and the second is the modified score, including ESFs and such. I'm guessing that you have the modified rank listed, w/ the bard song boni parenthetical.

Quote: Posted 10/06/08 14:16 (GMT) -- avado
DONT take lasting inspiration as a lv 40 song is long enough as is.
Tsk tsk. W/out any feats, a level 40 bard song is exactly as long as a level 1 bard song. Do, most certainly, take lasting inspirations. In fact, as much as you need the AB, take it at level 21, since you can.

So, no, this isn't the weakest guy ever built, but it's one of the weakest bards I've seen. There are some darned good reasons you don't see pure bards, but, that's been mentioned. Ad naseum even.

LOL! WHat is it they say, It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak and prove it fact! Like i said recently, I am NOT a bard expert! I assumed (make an *** of u and me) that bard song is like everything else. If this is the case, and i have no reason NOT to believe, Takine 40 bard levels is now TOTALLY moronic!

Thank you onion eater for showin me the truth and error of my ways!

[for the record, you CAN sig that if you like onion!!)

Peace
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Quote: Posted 07/08/06 16:20:00 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia

I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Hmm, nice idea about the Heavy Armor Proficiency. I think maybe dropping Martial Weapons is better, since his value (as moronic as it may be to some) is not really the weapon he uses. Good call, I still get Toughness at 1st level, since I usually am not able to afford full plate that soon, take Heavy Armor at 3rd. Blind Fight comes at 9th lvl then, skipping Still Spell (and less strip-buffing) to after lvl 12.

Also I just noted the suggestion on Lasting Inspiration right at lvl 21, for some reason I thought I wouldn't meet the requirements so soon but he does have the 25 Perform needed.

I just think I won't play with his stats anymore, and his final STR is 28 and not 26 (if I didn't mess things up obviously hehehe).

Again thanks for the comments and suggestions. Could anyone point me in the right direction if I want to apply this build (after polish) to the Pure Class/Maximum Class builds thread?
Quote: Posted 10/07/08 19:48 (GMT) -- OCNT Dogo

Also I just noted the suggestion on Lasting Inspiration right at lvl 21, for some reason I thought I wouldn't meet the requirements so soon but he does have the 25 Perform needed.


Nope. 25 Perform Ranks are required (feats and other modifications don't count). To meet the perform qualification you must be level 22 or higher. So that's where I got my idea from!!! Hehehe thanks Whizard. After onioneater's comments I was unsure if the +2 coming from CHA would count towards the requirements or not.