When I was looking over the wiki I saw one comment about tenser's transformation being able to use the cleave feat inherent in the shape to qualify for blackguard. This got me thinking, perhaps a little too much, and taking the example to its logical end I recently leveled up a 13 wizard/13 Arcane Archer/14 Dwarven Defender, using the fact that tenser's could change my race to elf. Though the shape does not affect your qualification for feats, the feats and race inherent in polymorph and shifter shapes can qualify you for a prestige class in the selection. If this exploit was just limited to natural shifted forms it would not be a major bug, but the fact that tenser's comes in scroll form opens up a free cleave and elf qualification to any arcane caster (You can make a bard 9/AA 13/DwD 18 by using the scroll). Other race changes to meet prestige class prerequisites can only be found in shifter, and the elf ones here don't help as arcane archer requires arcane spellcasting, but azer chieftan will qualify you race-wise for dwarven defender (which doesn't do much except for attaching the benefits of a different natural race to leveling like the human skill point bonus(though you don't get this on levels taken in a shifted form) and extra feat). As 1.69 is out now and it is unlikely for further bug fixes I feel that this should be a topic of consideration, as a determination in this regard would set a standard for the guild.
*pulls out nwn cds and installs on pc*
*bows*
I may have to come out of retirement to do this build! You are SOO the man! _________________
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 10/21/08 00:33 (GMT) -- WhiZard
but azer chieftan will qualify you race-wise for dwarven defender
Azer is outsider not a dwarf. So it's not possible to do anything with azer. I just tested it.
Bard / Arcane Archer / Dwarven Defender! I once dreamed of such a build and got sent to hell after realizing it was ridiculously impossible, and now God laughs at my face telling me I was just not smart enough to find how to do it.
I thank thee for sharing the light. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Posted 10/21/08 12:17 (GMT) -- TasMagar
Quote: Posted 10/21/08 00:33 (GMT) -- WhiZard
but azer chieftan will qualify you race-wise for dwarven defender
Azer is outsider not a dwarf. So it's not possible to do anything with azer. I just tested it.
Right I guess the dwarven waraxe threw me off there. So tenser is the only way to meet another race's prerequisites. Below I have all the combinations that one can use for hooking a prestige class without already naturally qualifying for it:
Prestige classes capable of being hooked without meeting all prereqs:
(Note the hooking assumes the character was leveled with no custom content or alteration to the feat pool; if some shifter shapes for example were acquired without taking shifter levels then there would be more possible hooking).
Also an additional extension of this is that you don't need to shift to qualify feat-wise for a class, if you don't naturally do so at that point.
If you have an item that gives any of the following bonus feats (these are the only pertinent item bonus feats in the toolkit):
You can hook the following: Arcane Archer: Point Blank Shot Blackguard: Cleave Dwarven Defender: Dodge Harper Scout: Alertness Shifter: Alertness Shadowdancer: Dodge, Mobility Purple Dragon Knight: Mounted Combat Weaponmaster: Whirlwind Attack
Now i am not sure about the feat added by item. IIRC, and it has been some time, so i could be wrong.
Btw, i was reloading nwn onto my pc to do this very thing.. but it takes so freaking long!! i forgot how long ALL the patches and stuff take!
Thanks for pointing this out all the same. It was just last week when someone was saying there are no more "creative" builds left... touche!
Now i am not sure about the feat added by item. IIRC, and it has been some time, so i could be wrong.
It works for qualifying for a level in a prestige class but does not help qualifying for a feat from the selection (I've tested it). So you can't get spring attack because an item gives you dodge and mobility, but you can get shadowdancer (provided you meet the skill rank criteria). Basically the class selection takes your character in its current form into selection, and the feat selection looks at a natural view of your character development.
It is a matter of decision as if bard/AA/DwD is allowed (which needs an external scroll to level) then it could equally be argued that many classes don't have to have all the prerequisite feats in the build due to the external ability to get these feats from items. Both tenser and items with alertness, dodge, and perhaps other such feats as well appear in the OC.
If we are to rule on the one hand that a build can use external means (regular toolkit equipment) to level uniquely, then there will be many builds that skip over feats like whirlwind attack and alertness. If we are to rule that unique leveling is okay provided the character has the natural ability (e.g. casting of tenser) to level this way, then we do not allow all possible builds, but allow for builds that qualify for a different race than the natural race. If we do not allow race and feat hooking then while not being any more restrictive than before, we are acknowledging that many better builds can be built than we would allow.
Whizard, you realize that what you are saying is bordering on heresy? Reminds of that one time that Galilee tried to tell us that there were "orbs" spinning around some object up in the sky. Yeah, right, As if....
But then, I can't look away. I'm already thinking about my half-orc Wizard11/Barbarian15/AA14. Scribe his own Tensers, Terrifying RageR, Dev crit on the bow, and an unearthly AB with it. CROM! THE POWER!! _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Whizard, you realize that what you are saying is bordering on heresy? Reminds of that one time that Galilee tried to tell us that there were "orbs" spinning around some object up in the sky. Yeah, right, As if....
Yes this exploit does seem torn between standards... (bolding added)
Quote: Posted 07/20/06 03:40 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Rule 1: Know your environment. Know what equipment and immunity items are available to your character and opposition before you build your character. If you can get an immunity to critical hits item, then a palemaster is less appealing. If immunity to mind spells is common, don't specialize in enchantment spells. If true seeing items are common, shadowdancers become less attactive, etc. Also be aware of potential imbalances in your setting before you play. If you're planning to play on a PW where true seeing has been changed to not automatically identify hidden creatures and shadowdancers have not been banned, either play a shadowdancer or find another server.
Quote: Posted 09/17/08 12:36 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord Not quite. Actually, it is preferred to address where such a character would be most playable, low, low-to-medium, medium, medium-high, and high. What the Guild has been expressly against is the posting of builds for a "specific" world. We've had that before, and you and I both came out spanked their pee-pee's when they did it.
Are items with bonus feats to be assumed acquirable on any level in general, or is this creating a specific world, even one that might be purely hypothetical in nature.
Edited By WhiZard on 10/22/08 09:30
What you quote (actually it was posted by Mith btw) is character building advice, not the guild's rules. It has nothing to do with the rules. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 10/22/08 14:25 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
What you quote (actually it was posted by Mith btw) is character building advice, not the guild's rules. It has nothing to do with the rules.
Correct, but it is the closest I could come, since the posting rules tend to be vague in this aspect except for the statement:
The build must be legal.
**Post 3000 I'm a level three poster.**
Edited By WhiZard on 10/22/08 14:45
Quote: Posted 10/22/08 14:43 (GMT) -- WhiZard
**Post 3000 I'm a level three poster.**
I don't even want to know what level I'd be... _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 10/22/08 14:43 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Quote: Posted 10/22/08 14:25 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
What you quote (actually it was posted by Mith btw) is character building advice, not the guild's rules. It has nothing to do with the rules.
Correct, but it is the closest I could come, since the posting rules tend to be vague in this aspect except for the statement:
The build must be legal.
I would liken it to the old WS/EWS cudgel exploit builds that use to pop up from time to time. It's technically not illegal, even from most PW's points of views since the issue is so obscure, and there is nothing formally written anywhere (which isn't to say that it couldn't become forbidden). It's a strange exploit, and while it may not generate powerhouse builds, it could provide for some interesting results. Knowledge such of this should be kept inside the Guild. Were this to get out and spread among the masses, there could be much social unrest.
But given that a Wizard or Sorc can provide for their own Tensers, then they would be able to level up within the framework of the game without needing anything that's world or mod specific. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
What you quote (actually it was posted by Mith btw) is character building advice, not the guild's rules. It has nothing to do with the rules.
Correct, but it is the closest I could come, since the posting rules tend to be vague in this aspect except for the statement:
The build must be legal.
I would liken it to the old WS/EWS cudgel exploit builds that use to pop up from time to time. It's technically not illegal, even from most PW's points of views since the issue is so obscure, and there is nothing formally written anywhere (which isn't to say that it couldn't become forbidden). It's a strange exploit, and while it may not generate powerhouse builds, it could provide for some interesting results. Knowledge such of this should be kept inside the Guild. Were this to get out and spread among the masses, there could be much social unrest.
But given that a Wizard or Sorc can provide for their own Tensers, then they would be able to level up within the framework of the game without needing anything that's world or mod specific.
I just ran some enforce legal character tests and here are the results.
Polymorphed/shifted shapes are unshifted on save character. When loading a saved character it is checked for all prestige class requirements. If it has all these (either naturally or by equipment) it is legal if however it doesn't meet any one requirement (such as elf and the polymorph is canceled at this point) it is not legal.
So if you are playing on a PW this exploit is almost strictly limited to equipment hooking (though shifter and tenser leveling if taking the requisite feat on their first level of the corresponding prestige class will always remain legal).
AA of a different race than elf or half-elf will not ever pass the enforce legal character test.
Edited By WhiZard on 10/22/08 18:52
Awesome stuff. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Quote: Polymorphed/shifted shapes are unshifted on save character.
Really? I've played with Druids for a long time and I save shifted a lot. As a fact, when you load a shifted save the game automatically makes some weird correction to your character as if you were the shift, which actually has some annoying consecuences: You lose all equipment-related bonuses since you were not un-shifted and therefore there was no equippement before loading. I hate that, my Haste from my armor always goes to hell when I load a shifted save. There is one particular observation I always found wierd: Stoneskin has a different visual effect when casted on a player than on an animal (or monster, this observation is made on my animal companion), the player will get its skin hardened iron-like while the animal companion gets a swirling piece of rock around its body, which means Stoneskin on a non-PC I guess, I really don't know why this happens. So, if you had Stoneskin as a buff and you save shifted, when you load you will see the swirling rock visual effect like if you were an animal instead of the player-like visual effect or iron skin.
The game itself won't do anything even if it were to figure out your build is illegal. I'd say that using Tenser's with a Sorcerer or Wizard that knows the spell to become Arcane Archer without being elf is technically legal since you're just exploiting a game error.
For the purposes of posting builds, as far as the character doesn't need any intervention from items like acquiring the scroll, it won't go against any rule. Personally, I would hate to see builds that meet class requirements through items, but I have no objection against meeting them through an exploit inherent to the build itself. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Polymorphed/shifted shapes are unshifted on save character.
Really? I've played with Druids for a long time and I save shifted a lot. As a fact, when you load a shifted save the game automatically makes some weird correction to your character as if you were the shift, which actually has some annoying consecuences: You lose all equipment-related bonuses since you were not un-shifted and therefore there was no equippement before loading. I hate that, my Haste from my armor always goes to hell when I load a shifted save.
Interesting, we may be looking at this from different angles. When your character is saved in a shifted form, enforce legal character will ignore all feats you have unnaturally (as if you were unshifted). If you have feats from items these are taken into consideration even if the item properties didn't merge into the shift. If you saved in shifted form though as of the 1.69 PC skin (for horse features) You will enter the game unshifted with your shifted creature skin in your main inventory (bug?).
This is AWESOME!
I really need to go play with this.
Thanks for posting this! _________________ A Tangled Web - Upcoming PW with PRC+CEP
Epic Drow Warrior should also qualify one as an Elf as well, right? _________________ A Tangled Web - Upcoming PW with PRC+CEP
Quote: Posted 11/01/08 16:11 (GMT) -- WebShaman
Epic Drow Warrior should also qualify one as an Elf as well, right?
It definitely should. You even get the +2 Dex and -2 Con regular elves do, not to say a possible XP penalty when in that form. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Ok, Shifter seems to be out for trying to qualify for AA - because Weapon Proficiency : Martial Weapons is not selectable as a Druid or a Shifter, and thus, one cannot actually qualify for AA (Weapon Focus : Longbow).
Though one DOES get Martial Weapons Proficiency with Epic Drow Warrior, one cannot "use" it to take Weapon Focus : longbow. Drats!
Thus, one either has to be an Elf as Race to start with (as they get Long and Shortbow proficiency, so they can get Weapon Focus : Longbow, which is a requirement for AA) or one has to take a Class that does offer the feat, and therefore all 3 class slots are full, meaning one cannot take AA levels.
Bummer
What does work well, is Tensor's Transformation - I was able to make a Dwarven Wizard/AA/DD easily enough using the spell (both from casting, and from a scroll). Unfortunately, it does not seem possible to increase the BAB so that one can qualify for the 6 AB earlier (tried using a variety of spells and items to do it - nope).
Bard/AA/DD is also possible, but requires an Alignment change.
Unfortunately, Defensive Stance does not allow the use of a missle weapon (shucky darn!) - still, it is a pretty interesting mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. Though the Bard build has more attacks (and they are certainly at a higher AB) than the Wizard version (didn't try a Sorc version, may want to try that - Sorc/AA/DD, but with the minus to Cha from Dwarf...bleh), the Wizard version, with full 9th level spellcasting, can cast some pretty good buffing. _________________ A Tangled Web - Upcoming PW with PRC+CEP
Edited By WebShaman on 11/01/08 20:08
Quote: Posted 11/01/08 19:47 (GMT) -- WebShaman
Ok, Shifter seems to be out for trying to qualify for AA - because Weapon Proficiency : Martial Weapons is not selectable as a Druid or a Shifter, and thus, one cannot actually qualify for AA (Weapon Focus : Longbow).
And because of no arcane spell-casting level. If you're looking for shifted hooks only (no items), shifters can only hook a prestige class in epic levels. (Shapes with dodge do not hook DwD because the race changes in the shift to be non-dwarven)
