I've got a monk 25/sorc 1/ rdd 14 and don't really know whether I should go with dev crit unarmed or get dam reduction 9/-. What are your thoughts about which would be better. I'm playing Aielund and I'm already level 21 so I still have a little bit of time to decide. Key info: unarmed monk(no weapon); Aielund Saga. Thanks.
It would be best if you could give more information about Aielund you know, I'm not willing to investigate on my own...
Quote: Key info: unarmed monk(no weapon)
Never do that again... it's... it's just wrong.
Ok, it's quite hard to say without knowing the environment, if you fight mostly mages Dev Crit will work best, but if you fight mainly meleers EDR will work best, that's how I see it.
I'd usually go for Epic Damage Reduction, it's nice to recieve less damage constantly, and I doubt you will fight only casters. Dev Crit is not sure to occur and it's not sure to work but EDR works every single time you get hit by physical damage, it's like the "safe choice".
The weird thing is that you've got the STR and the CON needed, sounds like you prepared it to take EDR and Dev Crit popped up when RDD raised your STR. You need to take Great Cleave for Dev Crit, which doesn't sound like something to take without planning in advance to take Dev Crit (at least I don't value much Great Cleave). Likewise, you wouldn't go for 21 CON without planning to take EDR, so if by level 21 you've got the requirements it sounds like you should take both, the number of epic feats make it possible, so I don't see why not. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/04/08 15:11
I'd advise not going for 14 RDD. Slip in another SOR level (more True Strike castings) and/or more Monk. 14 RDD doesn't really give you for worth the levels.
As for the choice... I'd say EDR. If memory serves, there's a lot of melee combat in that module series, so you're probably best served taking less damage. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Like Thax said, if at lv 21 you have the OPTION for EDR OR Dev crit and you didnt plan for them, you are one crazy lucky SOB!! LOL
I cant believe i will say this, but i dont agree with Cinn (on this one ). Yes, taking less damage is a nice thing, BUT, killing things outright is mighty nice too! In my view, IF you are indeed in this situation where you have 25 str and 21 con, i would go the rest into str. Pump the snot out of str. You are RDD. Get dev crit and AB as high as you possibly can. Then your DC on dev crit will be nice and reliable.
If the pw or whatever has lots of undead (like exclusive) then take EDR, cuz dev crit is wasted there.
lol.. for the record, to make a truly epic character, you really cant diversify the stats a great deal and you have to plan it out before hand (recommended does no epic character make). I know you have Epic dodge/dev critters, and Dev crit/edrs or what have you, but in the end, you end up with a watered down character. I guess, and i dont play mods that much, if the mod creator is a wimp then a watered down character is ok. I just have really really really really really bad memories of playing an EDR- con focused dwarven fighter and having to wait one HECK of a long time for him to kill things. I guess if you have lots of time, or the mod is easy, thats ok. I personnaly dont, which is why i try to design mass killing machines (until PRC was taken away from me on my home pw).
Oh, and dont go 14 rdd. I have NEVER understood what people are thinking with that. Rdd is a 10 lvl class. Harper is 5. I think bioware should have made rdd stop at 10 and say that the higher levels were more powerful (a lie) just so we wouldnt have to have these silly OT discussions about the merits of 4 extra rdd levels. Ill put it this way: IF rdd DIDNT give the stat boosts, would anyone take it for the +4 ac and imm to fire (OVER 10 levels)? NO. So why would you go from lv 11rdd to 14, where you dont even get the ac boost (sorry you may get 1ac, i have honestly never looked cuz..).
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
I just don't think he's going to confirm enough criticals to make it worth getting Dev Crit. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Dev Crit with unarmed attack is a bad idea to start with. The crit range can't get beyond 19-20 (and that implies the IC feat), which simply sucks. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Dev Crit in Aielund isn't useless, but you will be facing *lots* of crit-immunes. That said, most of the damage you take is non-physical, so DR really isn't that useful at all, IMHO. The physical dmg you get is usually from giant constructs or demons, and those bypass any DR short of epic warding with ease.
And Dev Crit does help in the last section quite a bit. The faster you make kills, the fewer psionic blasts you take. Though great smite works too.
The Aielund Sage is a great environment for an unarmed monk. In this particular build, taking RDD to 14 levels gives you one more bonus feat than you'd get any other way.
In this context, it looks to me like EDR is the better option, but after you meet the 21 CON requirement for EDR, keep boosting STR for more AB and damage, and if you wind up with an even STR and exactly one more ability boost left over, only then should you raise CON to 22. Keep in mind that the Aielund Saga will take you only to about level 36, not all the way to level 40. _________________ Great Research Tools: NWNWiki NWN Epic Character Build Search Engine The NWN Vault
Thanks all. STill pondering which road to take.
Quote: Posted 12/05/08 02:36 (GMT) -- RangerSG
Dev Crit in Aielund isn't useless, but you will be facing *lots* of crit-immunes. That said, most of the damage you take is non-physical, so DR really isn't that useful at all, IMHO. The physical dmg you get is usually from giant constructs or demons, and those bypass any DR short of epic warding with ease.
If they're dealing physical damage, they cannot bypass the EDR feats. No physical damage can, as the DR from the feats is unspecified. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
DOH! Unarmed!! Who on earth does unarmed! My bad. The idea of asking a question based on a specific world where the feats or environment are changed is rather a silly proposition.
Take, for example, my old world. If you were told that Dev crit is in effect and the high end mobs have high str and ab, and one asked which is better, a lv 10 pm/bard/clericor lv 40 cleric, for example, the typical answer would be, PM!
Without saying that PRC was in effect, the above is correct. With PRC the answer is CLERIC. Clerics get Livingi undeath at 2nd lvl in PRC, which makes PM rather useless (with 40 casterlvls). Just my 2 cents _________________
There are *very* nice monk gloves in Aielund, I will say that. But unarmed still caught me a bit too. That said, I don't recall any truly outstanding kamas.
Quote: I just have really really really really really bad memories of playing an EDR- con focused dwarven fighter and having to wait one HECK of a long time for him to kill things.
Who plays CON focused Fighters? play STR focused Dwarven Defenders and then you'll see the light.
Right, I didn't notice since it wasn't the question, but the comments above are absolutely correct, drop RDD to 10. _________________
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
Quote: Posted 12/05/08 15:24 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 12/05/08 02:36 (GMT) -- RangerSG
Dev Crit in Aielund isn't useless, but you will be facing *lots* of crit-immunes. That said, most of the damage you take is non-physical, so DR really isn't that useful at all, IMHO. The physical dmg you get is usually from giant constructs or demons, and those bypass any DR short of epic warding with ease.
If they're dealing physical damage, they cannot bypass the EDR feats. No physical damage can, as the DR from the feats is unspecified.
Cinn,
I should say "overpower" and not "bypass" as such. I mean the adamantine golems and demons and such hit you for so much dmg the DR doesn't make a huge difference. You're better off punching up STR to kill them quick yourself, or dex to avoid getting hit entirely.
Well, now that makes sense, but taking EDR never had anything to do with lowering STR, as far as we're concerned, chucknra says he qualifies for EDR and Dev Crit already. Unarmed Dev Crit is still not very reliable. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Let's look at this another way. Thax, like we all say, but you said it best, unarmed is unreliable. Let me ask this: if by accident (meaning he hasnt planned beforehand) he has enough for edr AND dev crit, how reliable is his build as it is?
as an aside: There is that funny little button on the bottom of the screen that says RECOMMEND. I did, one time, ONE TIME, get it to give me the correct feats when i wanted them (yes i do sometimes check). I was playing a PRC bard/brawler/rdd thing that had insane str (got gr str 10 with RDD) and the recommend was giving me Gr str as the feat after level 33 or so. I swear for those last 7 levels i felt like a cleric! (having my prayers answered). lol
You know, i almost cant wait for the time we are asked with all seriousness, "what should i take, epic dodge or dev crit?" That would have my jaw on the floor! Imagine just Happening by that one! Or what about that planar turning feat (the super powered one) and dev crit! *sigh* i can always dream... _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Last year, I made a build that gets both Dev Crit and ED, in this thread, followed by a build with both ED and EDR. Click Here _________________ "Never laugh in the face of a live dragon." - Bilbo Baggins
Quote: Let me ask this: if by accident (meaning he hasnt planned beforehand) he has enough for edr AND dev crit, how reliable is his build as it is?
Good question, if it were planned, I'd say it has a lot of potential of being a good build. If it's not planned then he could be lucky, a good builder in disguise, or just a regular random thing that popped up, but I doubt it to be a bad build, it's still a decent combination. RDDs get a lot of STR so it's not unfathomable to hear him taking Dev Crit and/or almost whatever other demanding feat (Self Concealment V or Dragon Shape would really surpirse me).
Quote: There is that funny little button on the bottom of the screen that says RECOMMEND. I did, one time, ONE TIME, get it to give me the correct feats when i wanted them
Wow, sound more like luck to me... maybe the PrC had something to do about it? I think I've used the recommended buttong maybe when I want to take Power Attack and I'm trying to max my HP at level up, but that nasty button is still so useless. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/06/08 06:35
LUCK!! Never. It was actually quite amusing. I guess, once you get to 36 base strength, recommend suggests that gr str is a good idea, ONCE YOU GET TO THAT LVL! PRC is indeed a wonderful thing. Brawler, which is a base class (if you play a pw you cant take it lv 1 though), gets gr str as a bonus feat, and iirc gets bonus feat like COT! .. or something. Think of it with a Half Orc with 20 start str + 10 str from stat boosts + 10 from gr str 10 + 8 rdd +12 from items.. you get a ridiculous build (it wasnt mine btw). Any wonders why PRC ISNT used on many servers?? Oh, dont get me started on that topic..
For the record, i know that you can do dc and ed. My point was, imagine doing it by accident? The build you followed wasnt just thrown together. It took planning. I just think its neat that this topic seems to suggest that DR and DC are in the same build without any preconcieved planning. Back to the regularly scheduled Thax/avado banter _________________
Ok, I want to see a build w/ Planar Turning, EDR, and either Dev Crit or ED. Actually, no I want both.
Yes, I'm aware it can't be done, nor should it be. Planar Turning alone is an almost ridiculous investment.
Almost? _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
All, Thanks for the great discussion. I'm able to get one or the other. Currently, at level 23 (RDD lvl 23), I've got a 24 STR so when I hit level 24 I'd go Over Crit add +1 to STR and then level 27 go Dev Crit OR at level 24 start pumping into CON two feats and three level-ups so I could get EDR at 33, 35 (from my 14 RDD level), and 36 with the loss of Epic Reflex and Epic Toughness to pay for my Great CON. I try to build my melee'ers with STR and CON and the RDD always helps. With this build, it sounds like with the Aielund Saga, I should go Dev Crit just because it at least adds two STR and the possibility for Dev Crit, even though some are Crit Immune; also my EDR would come very late in the build to help.
Alot of what I see with splitting stats (and this is only the way i see it), is that, for every point you decide to NOT put to str, you reduce your damage, AB, fort save (which protects vs dev crit iirc). (i know you need 2 str points, im just working on a grading scale).
Its all well and good to have dev crit and 25 str, but is it as effective as a str of 36? no. I have played a dev critter in prc with base of 48 iirc.
Its a mind set thing. I tried to do a pure str tempest build one time that had a str of 56 (+12 str on). imagine having to save vs 8 attacks per round (prc tempest is pretty sick, but buggy) with a DC of 60 iirc (and my dev crit dc is a bit rusty... i just remember that prc max dc is 65). I know with normal nwn these numbers are silly, but the thinking process is what i am trying to put across. So, while stopping str at 25 or 26 seems like a good idea, esp for con, when we roll a one, it makes no difference if you have 10hp or 100000 hp, you die the same.
SO, what i am saying is, you are RDD! Remake char and go full out str!! Not what you wanted to hear, but that is ok. _________________
You been drinkin', Avado? _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Fort save is tied to CON, not STR. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 12/10/08 23:05 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Fort save is tied to CON, not STR.
I think he meant Dev Crit DC (which is the DC of the Fort save the critted opponent has to pass, of course). _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Thanks guys. Read my sig! I apologize for the confusion. My clarity in writing has gone down some since my daughter was born (shes 4 months now).
My whole point was to try to say that IF you are splitting your stats for the sake of splitting stats (ex not takin the stat for spell levels) you are watering down your character. imvho, having played many different types of characters, when you go for dev crit, the investment to get that feat is alot. TO not maximize your investment is poor planning. I liken it to buying stock in McDonald's to make a profit, then to set up a boycot of McDOnald's cuz you heard that fast food isnt healthy, THEN, complaining to the papers that your investment lost money cuz the stock price went down. I guess that is what i see when i see someone take 2 stats in a build that doesnt really need them.
TO answer the question, builds that would need stat splitting: cleric/melee (str/ wis), arcane/melee(str/int or cha), MAYBE ed+dc build (str/dex - i like this cuz ed is a more beneficial than edr).
It may sound like i dont like edr and its true. THey are not really the best bang for your buck, esp in late epic levels where 9 is nothing (esp with crits of 200+).
In my humble opinion, you should start the build over again, only putting to str and leave the edr for those dwarves who have nothing better to do than drink and brag that they can take alot of damage. Start swinging your sword and let the 1's come and all teh edr and hp in the world wont save his arse! but thats me. I hate playing a weakened character. it is a mortal sin, imho (yes i am a cleric in real life too...) _________________
A dwarven RDD can get EDR with less effort than it takes him to tie his shoes. Depends on the environment, and it depends on the character, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. For my money, it may be a worthwile goal with any dwarf, or any RDD, that is, if you can afford the feats and stats. It happens though, and it's a rather nice little prize when it does fit.
I think EDR is best when combined with some other DR, like a Dwarven Defender's or Barbarian. Nine by itself doesn't seem great, but add 12 from DD and you get 21 which is like permanent Greater Stoneskin. Even adding 10/- from gear (depends on environment) gets you 19 which again is almost like Greater Stoneskin.
Like Thax said, if at lv 21 you have the OPTION for EDR OR Dev crit and you didnt plan for them, you are one crazy lucky SOB!! LOL 
). Yes, taking less damage is a nice thing, BUT, killing things outright is mighty nice too! In my view, IF you are indeed in this situation where you have 25 str and 21 con, i would go the rest into str. Pump the snot out of str. You are RDD. Get dev crit and AB as high as you possibly can. Then your DC on dev crit will be nice and reliable. 
Who plays CON focused Fighters? play STR focused Dwarven Defenders and then you'll see the light.