hey guys. I have heard that divine power was changed in the new patch, yet i cant seem to find out where this is stated in the patch description. Is it in 1.69 or is it before? Anyone know where they found that it was changed?
Thanks for the help.
av
I think it used to go like this. Let's say you're a level 20 cleric with 20 strength and 15 BAB. +5 weapon. So you're looking at 25/20/15.
Divine Power makes that 30/25/20/30.
If you're hasted, you get 25/20/15/25.
I think it USED to be that Divine Power and Haste gave 30/25/20/30/30. And if you're using flurry of flows (using the same AB for the sake of simplicity) you'd get 28/23/18/28/28/28.
Now, the extra attacks receive a -5 penalty. So...
At least, I think that's the case.
thanks magic, i know how it used to work. It was more beneficial to have a 3apr than 4apr cleric for the simple reason that div power gave you the 4th attack at full ab, so you would have 30/25/20/30 vs 25/20/15 without.
I have been hearing though, that it was changed. I dont see any record of this. I am wondering if it actually was changed, or is it just a bunch of myth.
thanks again
av
Now, the extra attacks receive a -5 penalty. So...
It was before version 1.69, I'm certain of that. I don't know which though. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Huh. I was convinced that it was 1.69 that made the change, though I don't recall ever seeing any documentation. I'm pretty sure though, that w/ 1.68, I was still exploiting DP and haste with regularity.
Honestly though, it's still a very handy thing to have 3 APR. So, fine, either your hasted or DP granted attack is at -5 from your highest AB. That's still a lot better than -15. I'm not changing my approach, I'm just benefitting a bit less from it.
What I'm not so sure about is great cleave. As of 1.68 it had a -5 for each attack. I believe I've heard that it no longer does, and that every great cleave is made at full AB, but I haven't had a great cleaver since to experience that firsthand.
Just so long as we're talking about significant changes to AB progressions... WW works right now. Yay WMs!
Quote: Posted 01/19/09 08:33 (GMT) -- onion eater Honestly though, it's still a very handy thing to have 3 APR. So, fine, either your hasted or DP granted attack is at -5 from your highest AB. That's still a lot better than -15. I'm not changing my approach, I'm just benefitting a bit less from it.
I think it mainly affected monk builds using flurry of blows, a more standard cleric only got a -5 penalty on one attack, versus a -10 penalty.
Standard cleric pre-nerf with haste: 20/15/10/20/20 Post nerf: 20/15/10/20/15
Monk cleric pre-nerf: 18/13/8/18/18/18 Post nerf: 18/13/8/18/13/8
Quote: What I'm not so sure about is great cleave. As of 1.68 it had a -5 for each attack. I believe I've heard that it no longer does, and that every great cleave is made at full AB, but I haven't had a great cleaver since to experience that firsthand.
Great Cleave is fixed. My main character on WoG has it Handy against those kobolds in the early levels.
The change affects the DP extra attack, and puts it into the normal progression.
So, before DP gave you: 20/15/10/20
Now it gives you 25/20/15/10
Hast still gives you one at full AB: 20/15/10/20
Haste + DP gives you: 25/20/15/10/25
Also, the extra attack work at -5 per step, not -3, even if you have monk levels.
TM
TM
Er...no. I'll test the monk/cleric later, but here at my results with 1.69 and a level 20 cleric.
Initial AB is 29/24/19. I'm hasted, and attacking a mob gave my the attack schedule of...
29/24/19/29.
Adding Divine Power made it...
34/29/24/34/29.
The extra attack from DP is still made the highest bonus, BUT if you have more than one extra attack (Haste, DP, FoB), then the second extra attack gets a -5 penalty, the third extra attack would be at -10 (I think on the third, I'm sure on the first/second).
I found this..
Quote: Posted: Thursday, 20 March 2008 03:29PM by Kail Pendragon
Quote: Posted 03/20/08 19:57 (GMT) by Northern-paladin
Normal a cleric with AB: 20/15/10, who cast divine power should now get: 20/15/10/20. I believe(d) a cleric7mage with only AB:15/10 who cast divine power should get: 15/10/15/15. I only have a test module named: preloader01 and I used the log file to see the test result which I think only showed two attacks pr. round....
That used to be the case before 1.68 corrected the "bug" (I'm not sure it was a bug in the first place); all extra attacks used to come at full AB, so for example haste and divine power would grant the 15 BAB cleric a 15/10/5/15/15 progression, now you get 15/10/5/15/10. To be noted that the extra attack from DP coming at full AB is definitely a bug but that has not been fixed.
I found this posted from the man. It seems to suggest, that yes, while DP has changed, it hasnt changed that much.. i am still uncertain, which is why i am asking all of you!
Edited By avado on 01/19/09 18:55
I tend to think of it as a 3rd hand of sorts. Each hand gets an attack schedule starting at your highest BAB, decreasing with each subsequent attack. _________________ Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz Mirdautas vras! Karn ghaamp agh nūt Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh
Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
Avado, the change for the typical cleric build means that if you're hasted, the divine power attack comes at the full attack bonus -5 instead of at the full attack bonus.
If you also have flurry of blows, it comes at a -10 penalty.
That's the only change.
Kail is correct. I promise.
Edit: and, yes, I agree with your assessment. The change in DP/Haste is no reason to go for 4 apr w/ your clerics. Sure, it's not quite as awesome. Still totally worthwhile. If you don't have haste, then... well, there's no difference.
Edited By onion eater on 01/19/09 20:22
I wrote the correct schedule somewhere else, I'm not sure where... it goes as Magic Master says. My way of explaining it is that all the bonus attacks per round add up like a third hand.
Example, say you're a Monk with 9 BAB, which gives the lowest APR you can get on a Monk: 3, and you use Divine Power + Flurry of Blows + Haste + Improved Two Weapon Fighting, you'd get:
+40/+37/+34/+40/+35/+40/+35/+30/+25/+20 \\ 10 APR, that's the max.
The first three "+40/+37/+34" are the regular stuff.
The next two "+40/+35" are the off-hand.
The next five "+40/+35/+30/+25/+20" come from adding 3 from Divine Power, 1 from Haste and 1 from Flurry of Blows.
The previous way it worked would give you +40/+37/+34/+40/+35/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40 I remeber I once made a build that did that but of course, the ending AB value was not good since it capped AB at a low value, I don't remeber which exactly. That schedule is dead with 1.69.
Kail should be right about it being in version 1.68, I only know it was before 1.69. I'm not testing this right now, but I'm 100% sure that DP, Haste and FoB stack like a third hand.
I hope that clears your doubts avado. Overall, only low BAB Monks end up losing AB when exploiting Divine Power compared to a high BAB build. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/19/09 20:49
Yeah it does. I thought i was loosin my mind for a sec! (which is quite possible). I asked cuz i was thinkin about a suggestion that onion made a few days ago, regarding Charisma clerics! Yes, i never thought about using high charisma and CLERIC, though i spent ALOT of time looking at high charisma variants a few years ago. THe only thing i cant stand is the low ab that becomes inherant when you do 3 stats (str, WIS and CHAR!). In the end, it is too much of a non-exciting build to worry about.
Thanks for the info. This is another importand CLERICAL topic that should be put in the cleric file (since we have almost all the top dudes postin to clarify! in case, someone else asks!)
end of my wondering!
av
Avado, you could make a ranged cleric and only focus on wis/cha. Divine Might for 8+ damage, Divine Favor for 5 damage, Battletide for 2 damage, Prayer for 1 damage. You'd be looking at weapon damage + str + ammo modifier + 16 damage (minimum) per shot, I guess.
I know you like melee clerics, though
lol! actually, the first time i ever realized the power of a cleric was to be a cleric21/wiz1/AA! using zen archery.
I thought about that here, with wis/cha. I think its been done though. i'll see
Quote: Posted 01/19/09 22:45 (GMT) -- avado THe only thing i cant stand is the low ab that becomes inherant when you do 3 stats (str, WIS and CHAR!). In the end, it is too much of a non-exciting build to worry about.
In a low enough magical environment, IMO cleric spells are enough to make up for the lack of a pumped AB stat, even w/out GMW. Of course, as you know, get some AA in there and you don't have an AB problem at all anymore... I don't think it's among the stronger cleric concepts, but I do think it's more than viable, and, of course, any CHA build wins some serious coolness points...
yes a cha-cleric is viable. ANY cleric with 26+ lvls is viable (i was lookin at c26/pal9/hs5)... especially going c20 pre-epic, or maybe 19c/1p.. its the stat split. If only there was an intuitive attack... Zen A could be nice, but now you go more wisdom...
to my mind, the pros and cons arent that good to invest the time, esp when there is nothing "unique" about it. i did it in 5 mins, so i am sure there is much to twink with it. It just didnt excite me enough. Sorry Anuis! Thanks for the suggestions though.
I made this once upon a time, The Arbalest of Archaron, and is pretty much what you are describing. Might be more effective with a sling, but then he wouldn't be an arbalest. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Thanks grizz. Yeah 28 wis, with less charisma is a very nice way to go. I was trying to make a 3/4 class (cleric) work with 20 wis 26 charisma or somethin like that. It really doesnt work that well, cuz, in my mind the AB is too low to have fun... though the damage could be nice for short periods...
thats why i sort of left the idea. I really wanted a consensus of Divine Power! muhahahahahahahaha !! I think that THAT is more valuable to the guild than a cheesy go nowhere charisma cleric (told you i do HATE that charimsa cleric idea!).
Quote: Posted 01/19/09 20:21 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Example, say you're a Monk with 9 BAB, which gives the lowest APR you can get on a Monk: 3, and you use Divine Power + Flurry of Blows + Haste + Improved Two Weapon Fighting, you'd get:
+40/+37/+34/+40/+35/+40/+35/+30/+25/+20 \\ 10 APR, that's the max.
I know this comment is late, but before the 1.68 Haste and extra attacks did not suffer the -2 penalty for dual-wielding, but FOB, oddly enough, did. Does this progression suggest that all attacks take the dual-wielding penalty into consideration, or do they all ignore it (Making the last 5: +42/+37/+32/+27/+22).
Hmmm, yeah, I think I know what you mean, I remember watching a +45 on feedback rolls while using Flurry of Blows when my highest ended as +43 a few times. It was the Hasted roll since it wasn't a Cleric, but I never tested about that I just regarded it as a bug that would be corrected eventually, and I don't know if 1.69 has that roll corrected. I made a few tests on Divine Power once, I don't remeber which version but it was before 1.68... but it's a bother to find those, I posted them on the Request Forum when I was trying to make the highest APR exploit build and the topic got lost in the shadows of the big amount of requests there, that test could tell how the rolls worked on earlier versions, I don't have time to find it right now. I could test it again in the new version, but that'll have to wait a few days, maybe until the week-end. If you're dying to know you could test it yourself and tell us. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/24/09 23:07
Ok, no more wrong numbers, I found my Divine Power Exploit testing post, so here's the real progression you would get on older versions with 9 BAB + kama ITWF + Flurry of Blows + Haste + divine Power:
+34/+31/+28/+36/+36/+36/+36/+34/+29
I still don't know why the test got 9 APR instead of 10, but heck, this AB progress doesn't happen in the newest version so it probably doesn't matter anymore. I'll make the tests in 1.69 and report it later. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Posted 03/25/09 05:06 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia I still don't know why the test got 9 APR instead of 10, but heck, this AB progress doesn't happen in the newest version so it probably doesn't matter anymore. I'll make the tests in 1.69 and report it later.
According to the script for the spell if you are epic and your pre-epic BAB is 10 or less you get two extra attacks with DP, and if your pre-epic BAB is inclusively between 11 and 15 you get one extra attack. If you have 20 or less levels than you get (Character level -1)/5 - (BAB -1)/5 extra attacks where both (character level -1)/5 and (BAB-1)/5 are assumed to be rounded down. So, in short, DP extra attacks are based on the regular progression, rather than the monk progression.
Thus it would be better to have a pre-epic BAB of 10 to get another monk attack and still get the two DP attacks.
Ok then, final test of Divine Power Exploit, version 1.69:
Build: Monk 1 / Cleric 6 / Wizard 13. It's a level 20 with 10 BAB, 22 DEX, 13 INT, 16 WIS, all the rest 8 (don't ask why). Feats: Weapon Focus: kama, Improved Two Weapon Fighting (TWF and Ambidexterity), Weapon Finesse. Strength Domain to get Divine Power as level 3 spell and Haste from Wizard spells, this should cover everything.
Note: Bolded numbers that do not follow all the proper calculations.
---------- End of test ----------
For the order, the first set is made by the normal progression, the second set starts with the extra stuff (FoB, DP, Haste) and the last set is the off-hand. So, here's my conclusion:
Flurry of Blows works perfectly, and affects the extra attacks and the off-hand attacks like it should. What doesn't work properly is that the dual-wielding penalty does not appear on the extra attacks, just as WhiZard mentioned, and it was not corrected. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Handy against those kobolds in the early levels.
The change affects the DP extra attack, and puts it into the normal progression.