There's a lot of talk about what environment a particular build will shine in. Everyone knows Clerics and Shifters rule low magic, and the new Dwarven Defender guide says "Dwarven Defenders shine the most in mid to low magical environments, where you won't fight enemies that deal 2d6 electrical damage or the like." I was wondering what sort of build shines in a +5 environment without immunities and enemies that do deal 2d6 electrical damage or the like. You can get pretty hefty bonuses to saves and max out a few stats if you play your cards right. I may very well have already played the build, but I just thought I'd ask. Thanks in advance.
Bard melee hybrids tend to be very brutal on those servers excellent mix of AB/AC/HP/Saves, if you're not a Bard fan Paladins and melee Clerics can be just as effective sometimes more so. Depending on the server rules/skill/feat changes Rogues can be anywhere from below average-average to great either way ya go try to keep an eye out for builds with a good mix of AC and AB and try to stay away from low AC builds (Anywhere below the mid-high 60s) unless they either have massive health/damage reduction or something else that's actually worth having such low AC
Aha. I was thinking about doing a Bard/Fighter/RDD sometime with a lot of Bard levels. My melee Cleric does pretty good too. It's fun to cast Regeneration 10 times and go nuts. I have noticed that one can get away with lowish AB but you want good AC. My non-shield melee builds were kind of a pain to level. I don't know exactly what you mean by Rogue, but I tend to use 10-13 Rogue levels a lot and it comes in handy.
Pretty sure it would be a good environment for a highDex Epic Dodger. +5 is at the breaking point where such a build gets extremely hard to hit. Rogue, mixed with Cleric, fighter, CoT, Bard, Ranger, monk. Actually almost anything. And a level of SD to get the almighty HiPS. That said, Wizards rule just about any setting. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Cleric/bard3/rdd rules ANYWHERE, in the right hands, of course. Or cleric/pm. But im biase
If you want a high AC class try a Monk/Sorc/PM obscene ammount of AC, epic warding and fast enough to stealth using natural obstructions to get by dodge AC..they're annoying lil things that also thrive on any server that allows multiple elemental damages to offset their low strength
Sorry and by Rogues I meant high Rogue builds like say..Rogue/WM/SD or Rogue/Ranger/SD or any other sneak attack/stealth heavy build if true seeing was changed from it's original form to add spot/listen/see invis etc instead then sneak classes tend to be a royal pain if it's just normal true seeing I see everything long as I have it on type then those types of builds aren't as great as they tend to focus on damage, ab and hide/move silently not AC/survivability, in the future I'll just refer to them as stealthers/sneakers
Sorry and by Rogues I meant high Rogue builds like say..Rogue/WM/SD or Rogue/Ranger/SD or any other sneak attack/stealth heavy build if true seeing was changed from it's original form to add spot/listen/see invis etc instead then sneak classes tend to be a royal pain if it's just normal true seeing I see everything long as I have it on type then those types of builds aren't as great as they tend to focus on damage, ab and hide/move silently not AC/survivability, in the future I'll just refer to them as stealthers/sneakers
Gotcha. True Seeing is in fact nerfed. +15 Spot.
You'll probably want to do a nice look through your journal see if any other feats, skills, spells or class changes were put into affect
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
I dunno some servers hit Clerics pretty hard when it comes to spell changes I've been on a few where they're really nothing more then buff bots/heal spammers, either way though checking server changes and subraces if available is important nothing like spending the time making a character and leveling it just to find out something doesn't work right and it was right there in your journal lol
You'll probably want to do a nice look through your journal see if any other feats, skills, spells or class changes were put into affect
Not much else is changed. There's part of the PRC there, Elemental Shield and Mestil's are capped at level 20. I think Rangers have some changes but I don't know what they are. Shadowdancers get a cool "jump" ability.
Omg jump ability? Tell all your WoW friends you can jump in NWN!! D:
Quote: I was wondering what sort of build shines in a +5 environment without immunities and enemies that do deal 2d6 electrical damage or the like.
Dragons
With +5 magical enhancement you will laugh at their faces with a dragon as you can boost your AC up to about 80 with a Druid/Monk. High AC and HP makes it pretty easy, the only detail is to reach the dragon shape. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/27/09 22:15
Yeah dragons are annoying as hell on +5 worlds only thing that can touch em are mages or high AB builds give em a decent bard song and some external buffs..not even a high ab melee can touch em lol, I'ld say clerics could kill em but..spamming implode hoping for a 1 doesn't work so well >.>
I'm working on a dragon right now. Getting to level 30 is a PITA with this build though. I'm not allowed to use Monk with Druid. Still, +6 weapons are kinda rare, but they do exist. Also, one does not autofail on saves. With the Monk rule Weapon Masters seem to be able to beat dragons, but oh well.
Edited By whirlin_merlin on 02/27/09 23:46
What dragon build are you planning on using? since Monk isn't available you lose out on the high AC factor of being a Dragon, so unless you're using a build with higher ab or more toys to play with such as maybe a barb, pally or cleric Dragon (though cleric doesn't work NEARLY as well since 1.69) you're probably going to be someones next dev crit kill lol
I'm just using pure Druid. I know it's suboptimal, but I did the math and AC should be in the 60's which is OK. I figured it was important to have long lasting, hard to dispel buffs because we don't have Heal potions so the only way to heal a 1000 HP dragon effectively is the spell Regeneration. There's also Spell Resistance and some other goodies. As for Dev Crit, I've seen never seen a dragon fall to it on the server, although they did lose because it was a Weapon Master. I should mention this is more of a PvM thing. On the rare occasion I want to PvP I'll just drop a Harm or something.
If I were you I'ld do a 38/1/1 or 38/2 split for skill dumps at the very least unless the server you're on has a pure class bonus of some sort if you do decide on a going for a skill dump class..Bard would be a good choice if alignment allows it if not try Rogue & Fighter or something along those lines for Tumbles +8 AC and Discipline..nothing more embarrassing then tripping over your own tail in the middle of a fight
Oh also one other thing if you plan on using your dragons breath attack frequently I'ld suggest getting 10 Shifter levels as I believe there was a DC/DMG penalty on the breath attacks in dragon form without at least 10 shifter levels, I could be mistaken though..the last dragon I had was a cheese 25/14/1 Cleric/Druid/Monk draggy
I am a little worried about Knockdown, but there is a minimum five levels in any class you take. Maybe five Fighter is worth it. I also can't save skill points except one for cross class on the next level. I'm taking Tumble as cross class, in fact.
Ah that's a shame without being able to save skill points you'ld most likely be forced into taking 10 levels of a class in order to max out or come close to maxing out Discipline, though if you wanted to do that Champion of Torm would be a good choice as you could get 5 Great Wisdom feats out of it just take weapon focus spear or something similar to qualify for it
Not taking Monk is a pain, if you're willing to have a hard level-up path, I'd recommend a Druid 18 / Bard 12 / Pale Master 10, if I remember correctly Bardsong is a feat-like ability so it can be used while shifted and PM grants extra AC plus critical immunity, restoring some of the lost AC from Monk, and in general, it's a good combination, though it really sucks when it comes down to leveling it up. For level up Druid / Champion of Torm is probably the best, sine CoT enables you to take Great Wisdom fast, but not being able to perform skilldumps makes it hard on the third class, as Rogue would be perfect if you could. Maybe a high BAB class pre-epic to get the 4 APR, it's not convenient to take CoT pre-epic or you'd lose the bonus feats for epics, so maybe Barbarian to get Uncanny Dodge and a bit of Rage, which can be activated in dragon shape. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
You could always try Druid/BG/Bard 30/5/5 Charisma shifts over for most forms so you could use divine might/shield end up as 15/5 druid/BG pre-epic for the 4apr have Dragon Shape by 33 take Bard at 35-40, and also a small thing worth noting is BG Bull's Strength stacks with the normal Bull's Strength buff (at least the last time I used one it did though that was a long time ago)
Could prolly make it look something like this if you wanted..would be different to say the least
still have 2 feats left open for whatever you might need
Come to think of it..I'm sure someone could come up with a great RP back story for this thing lol
Edited By Revenant Mattlov on 02/28/09 06:16
Hmmm, change Divine Shield for Divine Might. Shield is useless once you get dragon shape since the dragon has the Dodge AC capped already. I'd change the spell focus to Conjuration, the best Druid spells are Conjuration (Stonehold and Storm of Vengeance). Power Attack and Cleave would be better changed for Knockdown and Improved Critical IMO.
Quote: still have 2 feats left open for whatever you might need
Take Epic Prowess, but what 2 feats? I only see the free feat at level 39 _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/28/09 17:03
He cant remove divine shield from this build. It is his middle name (Revenant "Divine Shield" Mattlov)! Actually, he has now done 3 or 4 builds and the only reason div shield wasnt used in the bard38 is cuz, well, he didnt take 1 cleric to qualify for it! Otherwise, he seems to prefer AC to damage.
But Thax, what do you know about Druids... Thax' Groovy Druid guide _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Edited By avado on 02/28/09 17:53
At the time I forgot about having taken Armor Skin so yes only 1 feat available and epic prowess may or may not be at the top of your list depending on what the build needs more fort, epic fort, higher disc esf disc etc. Also power attack/cleave was needed for BG and I put in holy shield more for human form then dragon form without monk and without skill dumps any extra ac would help if it's a serious pvm server
Bleh, forgot to think that Blackguards need Cleave, grumble grumble. Then at least change Toughness for Blind-Fight, I forgot to mention that one.
Quote: I put in holy shield more for human form then dragon form without monk and without skill dumps any extra ac would help if it's a serious pvm server
That doesn't make any sense (the bolded part). I meant that Divine Shield adds exactly +0 to your AC when you're a dragon, no matter how much Charisma you've got, so that "any extra AC would help" is non-existent. Sure it'd be nice when you're leveling up, but Divine Might works all the time, dragon or no, so it sounds much better to me. And man, your charisma is 14!, you could very well drop the Divine feat and Blackguard all along (taking out PA and Cleave too, some space for Silent Spell, Knockdown, Improved Critical). Be your build less stereotypical if you may, but Champion of Torm still works better and gets the shape sooner. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 03/01/09 03:12
Very few servers are designed with dragons in mind so being able to BE in dragon form constantly isn't always possible hence divine shield and some +charisma gear when you're restricted to being human, either way it's just an alternative to a 30/10 druid/cot if you wanted 4apr some saves then some tumble by 40. And yes Avado in general if I'm forced to choose and since I usually have a +8 Cha modifier I find +8 AC more valuable then +8 dmg, what use is 8 dmg if 1. I can't hit whoever I'm attacking or 2. I don't survive long enough for 8 dmg a hit to matter
... what use is 8 dmg if 1. I can't hit whoever I'm attacking or 2. I don't survive long enough for 8 dmg a hit to matter
I have never done pvp, so i have NEVER had to think this way. I am so glad i never decided to get into pvp play, cuz, to me, this is insane! I dont mean anything by it, it is just a different way to play. All i have seen from your builds is a use of feats that are for NOT loosing, vs feats used for winning. Its just the difference in mindset from pvp to pvm.
I do want to thank you for putting up your builds. IT lets us non-pvpers to view a side we were missing (or never cared to, in my case). I have to apologize then, cuz now i see why you justify so hard on divine wrath, when to pvm, it would be unthinkable to design a character around a one per day feat.
Grasshopper is learning... slowly. What do they say bout "old dogs"? _________________
They fart alot and it stinks to high heaven when it happens?
But yeah, don't worry about it I was just hoping to get some decent pvp/pvm builds posted to give newer players or players that get pvped alot/like to pvp alot a few things to try or hopefully ideas to get them going on their own builds afterall anyone can copy a build from a website but put some thought into your character make your own decisions and make something on your own with a few ideas here and there from the many, many, maaaany builds up here and you'll most likely love it more then anything you could have just copied off the web and at the end of the day you've had more fun with it which is the entire point of a game
But yeah, don't worry about it I was just hoping to get some decent pvp/pvm builds posted to give newer players or players that get pvped alot/like to pvp alot a few things to try or hopefully ideas to get them going on their own builds afterall anyone can copy a build from a website but put some thought into your character make your own decisions and make something on your own with a few ideas here and there from the many, many, maaaany builds up here and you'll most likely love it more then anything you could have just copied off the web and at the end of the day you've had more fun with it which is the entire point of a game
My vote for 2009's LONGEST sentence EVER award!
There's no such award avado. And... you can't say it's 2009's longest "ever", what the hell? _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
But yeah, don't worry about it I was just hoping to get some decent pvp/pvm builds posted to give newer players or players that get pvped alot/like to pvp alot a few things to try or hopefully ideas to get them going on their own builds afterall anyone can copy a build from a website but put some thought into your character make your own decisions and make something on your own with a few ideas here and there from the many, many, maaaany builds up here and you'll most likely love it more then anything you could have just copied off the web and at the end of the day you've had more fun with it which is the entire point of a game
Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
Finn, i am disappointed. Its ok that Thax didnt get the joke, but you? :{
No, I meant Mattlov's post is giving me a headache _________________ Ghaash agh akūl - Nazgūl skoiz Mirdautas vras! Karn ghaamp agh nūt Shaut Manwe quiinubat gukh
Summoning - Mirdautas Vras
I have a unfinished (mean a lvl 40) barbarian 28/bard2/rdd 10 build suited for a high immunity,high experiance hack n slasher persistant world.
It may sound awkward with only 2 levels of bard but saving all but 8, yes 8 skillpoints until 40.....I have a HUGE amount to dump where i need it.
My build is a knockdown immune tank with (epic discipline included)discipline 69 , 43 taunt and be able to dump huge wads into skill posts for bard to use every thing under the morning sun.
In full plus 5 gear, amour,cloak,helm,boots etc im just touching or close to 50 ac no buffs at all.
In all plus 6's, im getting this guy to aprox 53 AC. Put a few buffs on and wouldnt know what hes packing Ac wise coz i havent tried it completely.
but lets just say this, even unfinished, he can drop six balor lords and keep enuff life to "own" a 75% slash immune boss with a dev crit that i get.
Attack bonus of about 45 to 50 i think it was.
My ftr/bard/rdd version has an attack bonus of 54, coz he has like plus 9 strength via a PW "muscle helm" _________________ Surviving 3 cats, 2 kids and a wife deserves some serious game time, dont cha think ?
Quote: Posted 03/12/09 02:39 (GMT) -- SwordDog
I have a unfinished (mean a lvl 40) barbarian 28/bard2/rdd 10 build suited for a high immunity,high experiance hack n slasher persistant world.
It may sound awkward with only 2 levels of bard but saving all but 8, yes 8 skillpoints until 40.....I have a HUGE amount to dump where i need it.
2 bard doesnt sound awkward at all. It sounds like a barbarian rdd, which is pretty tough. IT is great that you put all the rest up, but, it would be so much nicer to actually see the build. Maybe you could post it in the Epic builds or suggestion forum so we can take a look at it? _________________
Avado, my confidance with my building is pretty ***ty and low at the moment, coz ive always been a "moderate" builder with "passable" builds that take out 167, 168 monster trash.
169 has given me a spin with its newer content and my previous patched builds are suffering,and I dont know enuff about REAL building to pinpoint why.
Cinnabar Dinn put his foot up my butt about my crappy confidance level and gave me enuff of a "rark up" for me to finally apply to the guild.
My "thing" is good for high magic worlds and has translated pretty well to a medium magic world.....yet im still not sure about it coz its never been used in a low magic world....
To see if it still "tanks" like it does in other worlds. My wife is trying to encourage me to post it up but i have rather large self doubts. _________________ Surviving 3 cats, 2 kids and a wife deserves some serious game time, dont cha think ?
Hey SwordDog! Welcome to the ECB guild. Pay no attention to anything Avado posts. His constructive content amounts to one Cleric guide AFIK and the rest consists of making new guild members wish they never joined. Post your build and when the flames come, just read and pay attention to the stuff that tells you how to improve it and leave the rest. You will be a better player-killer for it.
Hey SwordDog! Welcome to the ECB guild. Pay no attention to anything Avado posts. His constructive content amounts to one Cleric guide AFIK and the rest consists of making new guild members wish they never joined. Post your build and when the flames come, just read and pay attention to the stuff that tells you how to improve it and leave the rest. You will be a better player-killer for it.
Looked to me that Avado was encouraging him to post the build. I'm not sure how that qualifies as anything negative.
Looked to me that Avado was encouraging him to post the build. I'm not sure how that qualifies as anything negative.
Thanks man. I was stunned by the bashin i took in this topic.
Oh, delt, you are right. I have contributed nothin really to this guild over the 5 years i have been around.... (pot, your shiny).
I guess i gotta be less subtle. Sword, POST YOUR BUILD PLEASE! Take Kail's outline and just copy and put it in exactly like you would. That way we can see how you build.
From all that i gleaned there are only so many things that you can do to make a build. As long as you are taking pre-epic feats before 20 and as far as you can help it, to avoid takin pre-epics in epic (it would be so sweet to take epics, pre..) then there isnt much you can do to mess up.
The only other things i can think of, are taking Save feats for PVM builds. In most cases, people put way too much fuss on saves, when equipment can make up for that. HOW can i say this? If you take 3 classes with low fort saves, guess what? You will have low fort saves! Surprise! LOL Tryin to twink around this has a tendency to make the character less effective (yes i did the high con (30 base) with epic save feat defender who, though having ewf and 30 bab, still couldnt make an effective meleer (to my standards). I am certain that Rev has pvp rules for building, and if we can be nice to him, maybe he will post them some day! LOL
Oh sword, do your build in its own thread. This one would be thrown way off topic (which it is already), and your build deserves its own. Trust me, if Cinn told you to come here, you are better than you think you are. Cinn dont know any fools (well, maybe one *hand up*.. but then again, how many of us around here really "know" Cinn??). You will be fine.
shiny builds has gotten me in too much troubles as it is, so i am out... NEXT! _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Edited By avado on 03/13/09 03:40
I may not be posting my build, its not an original like i had wished...but another version of stuff already there.
I am simply heading back to the drawing board to come up with something more useful to be my first posted toon build. _________________ Surviving 3 cats, 2 kids and a wife deserves some serious game time, dont cha think ?
Bard melee hybrids tend to be very brutal on those servers excellent mix of AB/AC/HP/Saves, if you're not a Bard fan Paladins and melee Clerics can be just as effective sometimes more so.
Delayed reaction: I am a Bard fan, but what about these Paladins? I'm no expert. Maybe Paladin/CoT/WM? Or Fighter instead of one of those classes maybe. I thought about a smiter, but after Harming/Healing everything I could get my hands on using a Cleric, I learned everything you want to smite has 2000-6000 HP. As far as I can tell, smiting 6000 HP in three hits involves three scythe WM crits in a row, which I don't trust. Not to mention the possibility of rolling a one on attack or concealment and the fact that you ain't critting some critters with immunity.
Pally/CoT/Rogue, Pally/CoT/WM, Pally/Sorc-Bard/RDD, Pally/Sorc-Bard/PM.
Those are all good choices if you're interested in a Paladin, although be forewarned Paladins tend to have a much shorter peak power duration compared to most Bards, however they tend to get MUCH higher AB/DMG compared to said Bards.
Not really sure what's been said throughout this thread, I just skimmed through, but I play on a +5 environment and I have to say the best melee build I've played for it is 20 Bard/ 10 Fighter / 10 RDD, or 11 Fighter / 19 WM / 10 SD. The Bard/RDD just wrecks EVERYTHING. If you're not so keen on RDD, the 11 Fighter/ 19 WM/ 10 SD will still beat anything else that isn't a Bard/RDD. Those Dragon monks also are pretty brutal. Although, the best thing overall is usually a Sorcerer. Something like 38/1/1 or 36/3/1 if you want Divine Shield for teh uber AC.
I have noticed that one can get away with lowish AB but you want good AC. My non-shield melee builds were kind of a pain to level. I don't know exactly what you mean by Rogue, but I tend to use 10-13 Rogue levels a lot and it comes in handy.
Pretty sure it would be a good environment for a highDex Epic Dodger. +5 is at the breaking point where such a build gets extremely hard to hit. Rogue, mixed with Cleric, fighter, CoT, Bard, Ranger, monk. Actually almost anything. And a level of SD to get the almighty HiPS. That said, Wizards rule just about any setting.
If you want a high AC class try a Monk/Sorc/PM obscene ammount of AC, epic warding and fast enough to stealth using natural obstructions to get by dodge AC..they're annoying lil things that also thrive on any server that allows multiple elemental damages to offset their low strength
Sorry and by Rogues I meant high Rogue builds like say..Rogue/WM/SD or Rogue/Ranger/SD or any other sneak attack/stealth heavy build if true seeing was changed from it's original form to add spot/listen/see invis etc instead then sneak classes tend to be a royal pain if it's just normal true seeing I see everything long as I have it on type then those types of builds aren't as great as they tend to focus on damage, ab and hide/move silently not AC/survivability, in the future I'll just refer to them as stealthers/sneakers 
