Hi guys. First off - this is my first post here so if I’m not following some guidelines on posting please let me know.
I usually don’t make dual wielding builds as I think the extra AC and +2 Attack Bonus you get from one weapon and a shield compared to two weapons easily beats the extra two attacks per round at -2 ab. But there’s a problem. I have this neat Two-bladed Sword that is quite unique on the server I play on and I want to use it. I’ve tried different build combinations to find what suits me best and I have concluded that a Ranger combination is necessary. Fighter/WM/Rogue is ok, but when I’m using Two-bladed Sword I have to go strength based. And because of the 15dex requirement for Ambidexterity any build I’ve made that does not include Ranger lacks out on ab.
The following is an explanation of what is required at the server I play. Basically I need a PvM build. Leveling difficulty is not any concern of mine just as long as the build is strong at level 40. At level 40 I need +50 ab to hit monsters, so that is a requirement. AC is not that important, as I have equipment to make up for that (mostly +5 and +6), but to give an idea of the difficulty, 60 and 90 AC are milepoles. Good saves are a bonus, but not vital.
The build I have come up with so far is a Ranger14/Cleric24/SD2. The 2 lvls of SD is mainly to max out tumble with a class that does not incur XP penalty. Maxed Hide and MS for the fun of it, even though TS is rather common. Build breakdown is listed underneath.
Any constructive criticism is appreciated. I need some ideas for different class combinations (preferably without XP penalty) that work with a Two-bladed Sword and has ab of +50 fully buffed.
Cheers
It looks good. I havent taken a close look, but it looks good! Besides, you have 24 clierci! What else do you need
Quote: Posted 09/27/09 12:42 (GMT) -- Halgroth The 2 lvls of SD is mainly to max out tumble with a class that does not incur XP penalty. Maxed Hide and MS for the fun of it, even though TS is rather common.
In that case why not assassin? They get UMD as well.
Also if you get rid of dodge and mobility you can get improved disarm for more AB (you have a large sized weapon after all).
Edited By WhiZard on 09/27/09 17:23
Fighter 12 Rogue or Bard 3 Weapon Master 25
Mundane AB dual-wielding: 30 + 12 + 4 + 6 - 2 = 50 AB +12 str and a +5 weapon = 61 AB dual-wielding
Str 17 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 8
1 Fighter // Exotic Proficiency, Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity 2 Fighter // Weapon Focus 3 Fighter // Knockdown 4 Fighter // Weapon Specialization 5 Fighter 6 Fighter // Dodge, Expertise 7 Fighter 8 Fighter // Mobility 9 Fighter // Spring Attack 10 Fighter // Whirlwind Attack 11 Weapon Master 12 Weapon Master // Improved Two Weapon Fighting 13 Weapon Master 14 Weapon Master 15 Weapon Master // Improved Critical 16 Weapon Master 17 Weapon Master 18 Weapon Master // Blind Fight 19 Weapon Master 20 Weapon Master 21 Weapon Master // Great Str I 22 Rogue or Bard // 23 Weapon Master // 24 Weapon Master // Great Str II, Epic Weapon Focus 25 Fighter 26 Fighter // Epic Weapon Specialization 27 Weapon Master // Great Str III 28 Weapon Master 29 Weapon Master //Epic Prowess 30 Weapon Master // Great Str IV 31 Weapon Master 32 Rogue or Bard 33 Weapon Master // Great Str V, Armor Skin 34 Weapon Master 35 Weapon Master 36 Weapon Master // Great Str VI, Epic Toughness II 37 Weapon Master 38 Weapon Master 39 Rogue or Bard // Great Str VII 40 Weapon Master //Epic Toughness III
MAg, sorry i dont understand what your post is for. It isnt even in the same realm that the OP did. Bad form! LOL
Im looking at this and you DONT need 20 wisdom. 19 is more than enough for a cleric buffer like this. I know some argue about even numbers, but in all honesty, you dont see any sig difference (trust me, i played alittle cleric in my day to know).
Taking SD is a shame. You give up 2 feats for it for Tumble and umd. Assassin, if you are evil inclined, is a better fit with only skill requirements.
Also, for cleric, empower spell fits better. And, you should take silent spell too, for extra heals/harms. IT is spellbook management (see, those 2 feats are impoortant!!).
There are other things that i, personally would do differently, but then, i have had ample experience with the cleric (which most may not have). If dev crit is available, i would look at going for that too (on your PW). There is NOTHING scarier than a cleric with dev crit.
Other than that, a very solid first attempt. _________________
Quote: Posted 06/23/04 21:16 (GMT) -- Anuis
Suolucider, Blitz 04, avado, Quisition, Boourns, ... welcome to the guild! Anuis
Makes me feel OOLD!!
Quote: Posted 09/27/09 18:31 (GMT) -- avado
MAg, sorry i dont understand what your post is for. It isnt even in the same realm that the OP did. Bad form! LOL
Quote: Fighter/WM/Rogue is ok, but when I’m using Two-bladed Sword I have to go strength based. And because of the 15dex requirement for Ambidexterity any build I’ve made that does not include Ranger lacks out on ab.
I posted a str based two bladed sword build that has high AB.
Ok, minimum +50 buffed AB, I'll assume it's a +6 weapon from the buffed stats (+6 slashing), which means you're actually just asking for +44 unbuffed AB, so I don't see the catch, it's a relatively normal AB for any meleer. I think I can get that much with a STR based Fighter 8 / Champion of Torm 10 / Dwarven Defender 22 and still grab EDR III to end with a adamage reduction of 24/-, which is nice. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Thanks for the input! This is all good stuff.
I see Assassin is really a better fit. I’ll make a new draft.
Your wm build, Magical Master, looks solid, but it’s not quite the twist I’ve been looking for.
Quote: Posted 09/27/09 18:31 (GMT) -- avado Im looking at this and you DONT need 20 wisdom. 19 is more than enough for a cleric buffer like this. I know some argue about even numbers, but in all honesty, you dont see any sig difference (trust me, i played alittle cleric in my day to know).
Taking SD is a shame. You give up 2 feats for it for Tumble and umd. Assassin, if you are evil inclined, is a better fit with only skill requirements.
Also, for cleric, empower spell fits better. And, you should take silent spell too, for extra heals/harms. IT is spellbook management (see, those 2 feats are impoortant!!).
There are other things that i, personally would do differently, but then, i have had ample experience with the cleric (which most may not have). If dev crit is available, i would look at going for that too (on your PW). There is NOTHING scarier than a cleric with dev crit.
Other than that, a very solid first attempt.
No Dev Crit on the server – it got too powerful. 19 Wis sounds reasonable, so does empower spell, but I'm not sure about silent spell. I can see it's useful, but with only 24 caster levels and limited wisdom will there be enough space to slot both offensive and defensive spells?
Ok, minimum +50 buffed AB, I'll assume it's a +6 weapon from the buffed stats (+6 slashing), which means you're actually just asking for +44 unbuffed AB, so I don't see the catch, it's a relatively normal AB for any meleer. I think I can get that much with a STR based Fighter 8 / Champion of Torm 10 / Dwarven Defender 22 and still grab EDR III to end with a adamage reduction of 24/-, which is nice.
The +6 slashing is actually from Bless and GMW. I should have made a buff breakdown. Will do so when I post the next draft. DD build sounds cool though.. I'll have a look at that too.
Please, more of this!
Quote: Posted 09/27/09 21:34 (GMT) -- Halgroth
...19 Wis sounds reasonable, so does empower spell, but I'm not sure about silent spell. I can see it's useful, but with only 24 caster levels and limited wisdom will there be enough space to slot both offensive and defensive spells?
k, a cleric SHOULD redo the castables with every area change IF NECESSARY! The reason for silent is to get MORE harms or heals IF YOU NEED THEM. I would NEVER mem harms going into an undead area, for ex.
Now, i am not sure what you are refering too with off and def spells. For the cleric, the buff spells go to lv 4 with div power, and with ext to lv 5 (the reason str is a powerful domain is you get 2 spell lvls of EXT div power IF you need them). Slots 6 to 9 vary for the area. Firestorm is a MUST, and you put ALL lv 8 slots with it. I cant think of another spell WHNE NOT IN UNDEADS. Lv 9, SOV. Plz, dont give me the implode song and dance. I did a MASTERFUL implode build with PRC, with a DC of 55 or something obscene, and SOV is much more useful for clerics!
People have the idea that a cleric is a caster. They ARENT! THey are a fighter WITH SPELLS! To be truly effective, they MUST be played as such. Being suckered into the "you're a cleric so heal me" bullshido is for pure rookies. My view is, if you cant HOTkey Heal pots and press that hotkey, you arent worth playing with. I have NEVER memd heal spells outside undead areas and have never had problems with getting parties. I was that good
I thought i wrote all this down... oh right, i did!
Seriously though, this guy doesnt have a shield so he will be down +8AC from what he should be at (assume +5 tower) which can be alot, even for clerics. AND, taking the cleric lvls later, he will mature late, which means alot of messy slug fests all the way to the top. See, i would have gotten Blades AT LEAST as early as possible, but thats me.
If you still have no idea what i mean, check my guide. I get into spellbook management there. I also have played clerics farily often and i have NEVER had to 1) worry about not having enough slots after 15 caster lvls) and 2) NEVER had issue with off and def spells... me thinks you are looking at the class in the wrong light. IF it works for you, great. BUt i know for a fact that my way is much more fun and TONS more reliable.
peace _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Worth noting that WIS bonus spells aside, a level 24 cleric gets exactly as many spell slots as a level 40 cleric, or a level 20 cleric. You won't have the bonus slots from WIS, but that's it, and that aint a huge deal.
Quote: Posted 09/27/09 22:44 (GMT) -- avado
Now, i am not sure what you are refering too with off and def spells. For the cleric, the buff spells go to lv 4 with div power, and with ext to lv 5 (the reason str is a powerful domain is you get 2 spell lvls of EXT div power IF you need them).
Now, i am not sure what you are refering too with off and def spells. For the cleric, the buff spells go to lv 4 with div power, and with ext to lv 5 (the reason str is a powerful domain is you get 2 spell lvls of EXT div power IF you need them).
Battletide?
Tide.. sure, you could suggest Prayer, bless, etc. These are all fine IF you need the extra ab. In my experience, getting +10-15 ab with a cleric is a joke, so IF you have +5 weapon (which is a spell too) you are at the +20 cap. I am sure that people use tide. I know i "tried" it. The thing is, with clerics, favor and dpower are so GOOD, you dont really need more. ESP with SOV having a chance to STUN the MOB you BETTER be in the middle of (or you cannot truly call yourself a cleric!).
My whole game plan when i played was to KILL ASAP. With that mindset AND the powers of your god, things shouldnt last long, so why take the extra time buffin for 2 ab?
But remember, I am VERY different! When i was looking at playin final fantasy, i ALWAYS tried to figure out how to make the "healers" the deadliest killers! It turns out, that in life, you find what you look for!
I am slightly confused. While war domain would easily cap your +20 AB, leaving a bull strength buff for strength it doesn't account for the +12 strength you are displaying, and if you had +12 strength gear your AB would be higher.
Did you mean strength and travel domain? This seems to match your AB perfectly. +5 DF, +5 GMW, +1 Bless, +1 Aid, +1 Prayer, +2 Battletide, +2 DP = +17 AB, add in 6 for +12 str and you get the AB difference from 37 to 60.
Edited By WhiZard on 09/28/09 02:33
Quote: Posted 09/28/09 02:22 (GMT) -- avado
Tide.. sure, you could suggest Prayer, bless, etc. These are all fine IF you need the extra ab. In my experience, getting +10-15 ab with a cleric is a joke, so IF you have +5 weapon (which is a spell too) you are at the +20 cap.
+5 weapon +5 Divine Power +5 Divine Favor +2 Battletide +1 Prayer +1 Aid +1 Bless = 20 cap
Battletide also offers 2 unresistable damage like Divine Favor.
Quote: I am sure that people use tide. I know i "tried" it. The thing is, with clerics, favor and dpower are so GOOD, you dont really need more. ESP with SOV having a chance to STUN the MOB you BETTER be in the middle of (or you cannot truly call yourself a cleric!).
+2 damage/AB is generally always nice. This is also assuming SoV is working, assuming the mobs don't have a high reflex and/or immunity to mind spells. And sometimes you'd prefer to have some silenced/stilled mass heals instead.
Quote: My whole game plan when i played was to KILL ASAP. With that mindset AND the powers of your god, things shouldnt last long, so why take the extra time buffin for 2 ab?
Because it takes 3 seconds and also grants 2 bonus damage.
Quote: But remember, I am VERY different! When i was looking at playin final fantasy, i ALWAYS tried to figure out how to make the "healers" the deadliest killers! It turns out, that in life, you find what you look for!
What makes you think I'm talking about something besides making a cleric do more damage?
did i ever say that tide didnt do more damage or ab? NO. What i was saying is that there are BETTER choices that tide for EVERY situation, UNLESS you dont have meta feats.
Quote: What makes you think I'm talking about something besides making a cleric do more damage?
You started to type!
Oh, did i mention, quoting numbers is useless cuz you dont compare to the actuals! But then again, you dont know the actuals, so you're stuck. _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
I've got school and a bunch of homework to do before I can dig deeper into this - just logged on to check how things are evolving, and so far so good.
did i ever say that tide didnt do more damage or ab? NO. What i was saying is that there are BETTER choices that tide for EVERY situation, UNLESS you dont have meta feats.
Quote: What makes you think I'm talking about something besides making a cleric do more damage?
You started to type!
Oh, did i mention, quoting numbers is useless cuz you dont compare to the actuals! But then again, you dont know the actuals, so you're stuck.
avado, I'm sure I'm not the only one detecting hostility in your posts. There's no need for it. If anything said in this thread angers you in any way just leave it there. Pursuing it will do nothing but escalate the discussion.
+5 weapon +5 Divine Power +5 Divine Favor +2 Battletide +1 Prayer +1 Aid +1 Bless = 20 cap
DP is only a +2 with this build. It's pre-epic BAB is 18.
Quote: Posted 09/28/09 06:45 (GMT) -- avado
did i ever say that tide didnt do more damage or ab? NO. What i was saying is that there are BETTER choices that tide for EVERY situation, UNLESS you dont have meta feats.
Quote: Tide.. sure, you could suggest Prayer, bless, etc. These are all fine IF you need the extra ab.
Quote: extra time buffin for 2 ab?
In both of those cases, you mentioned AB specifically but not damage.
And name a better choice than Battletide as a pre-battle buff. You're losing a 5th or 6th level spell for it.
Quote: You started to type!
How amusing.
Quote: Oh, did i mention, quoting numbers is useless cuz you dont compare to the actuals! But then again, you dont know the actuals, so you're stuck.
As WhiZard noted, in this case the "actuals" mean Divine Power offers less than 5 AB, so the Battletide AB and damage is more useful. Plus, given that's it's a dual-wielding build, something which gives a flat damage increase per hit is better than if it was using a 2H and sword and board.
Quote: Posted 09/28/09 10:53 (GMT) -- WhiZard
DP is only a +2 with this build. It's pre-epic BAB is 18.
True.
Quote: Posted 09/28/09 02:26 (GMT) -- WhiZard
I am slightly confused. While war domain would easily cap your +20 AB, leaving a bull strength buff for strength it doesn't account for the +12 strength you are displaying, and if you had +12 strength gear your AB would be higher.
Did you mean strength and travel domain? This seems to match your AB perfectly. +5 DF, +5 GMW, +1 Bless, +1 Aid, +1 Prayer, +2 Battletide, +2 DP = +17 AB, add in 6 for +12 str and you get the AB difference from 37 to 60.
I had some strength equipment on that I did not notice. The correct Strength bonus would be +9.
Here’s the second draft. I went for 19 wis, gaining the last skill points from epic feats which is kind of a drawback, but I find it to be a personal challenge. I want as high str as possible for max ab so I got this version up to 30 str. Figured Blind Fight is a must as well because of the high usage of concealment at lvl 20+, so I dropped Knockdown and Improved Knockdown to get more useful feats. I also got Empower Spell but no Silent Spell (yet). It is available by sacrificing one Great Strength (which will open for another feat as str will be an odd number). I have to evaluate the value of silent spell some more before I know how useful it is on the server. I also decreased Ranger levels to 10, increased Cleric to 27 (dispel immunity is highly valuable) and I took 3 levels of Assassin to gain an additional 1d6 Death Attack damage (total 2d6).
On the discussion whether certain buffs are necessary or not – in most combat situations above lvl 30 I will need very high damage output and ab to overcome the environment on the PW. So I will need all the buffs available and as many slots as possible.
A few questions: - According to NWNWiki +1 saving throws gained from Spellcraft is based on fully modified ranks (not base ranks). So do I need 40 base skill points in Spellcraft to get +8 to saves or can I go with 39 skill points and still have 40 and +8 bonus because of the 1 extra point gained from int modifier? - Even though a Two-bladed Sword is of Large size category the extra 50% damage gained from Strength Modifier does not apply because it is a dual wielding weapon, right? - Can anyone explain how additional spell slots are gained based on Caster levels and Wisdom modifier?
AB Breakdown: Aid +1 Bless +1 Prayer +1 Divine Favor +5 Divine Power +3 Battletide +2
Also, Strength is increased by +9 from maxed Bull’s Strength and Aura of Vitality. With an extra +3 strength from items ab will be +63.
PS. I did not pay much attention to the skill points this round so there may be numbers that don't match.
Quote: Posted 09/28/09 16:51 (GMT) -- Halgroth
increased Cleric to 27 (dispel immunity is highly valuable)
Cleric 25 (Dispel check of 36 versus 15 + d20) is enough for immunity. Cleric 26 gives a bonus feat, but Cleric 27 doesn't offer much offhand besides 1 more round/turn/hour of duration.
Quote: A few questions: - According to NWNWiki +1 saving throws gained from Spellcraft is based on fully modified ranks (not base ranks). So do I need 40 base skill points in Spellcraft to get +8 to saves or can I go with 39 skill points and still have 40 and +8 bonus because of the 1 extra point gained from int modifier?
39
Quote: - Even though a Two-bladed Sword is of Large size category the extra 50% damage gained from Strength Modifier does not apply because it is a dual wielding weapon, right?
The extra 50% is gained, it just goes on the off hand
Quote: - Can anyone explain how additional spell slots are gained based on Caster levels and Wisdom modifier?
Caster levels stop granting bonus spell slots at level 20, check the class specific page on the wiki for that information, though here is the cleric page.
Sort of an exception applies to Pale Masters.
Ok, I feel there's something missing. Forget the no XP penalty request I first stated. What about a Ranger/Cleric/Monk build. Or Ranger/Cleric/Rogue.. Monk would get evasion, 10% more speed and make WIS modifier to AC which will be a great bonus with Wisdom equipment. Max modifier of 10 if the current draft is equipped with +11 wisdom gear. Rogue would get evasion and 2d6 sneaks plus UMD.
I know cleric/monk kind of reeks, but I just can't help myself. Can even bump up to Monk6 for IKD, +1 AC and 20% extra speed.
Any thoughts?
With Monk, why not Fighter in place of Ranger?
I don't think I ever made a character with less than 21 ranger levels (aside from Zero ), so I might not be your best bet.
But with 10 Dex and light armour won't your AC suffer badly?
Your starting stats would have to be shuffled up, I'm thinking STR 14 and DEX 14. With fighter in the mix you'd be able to get an extra GrSTR so as your AB wouldn't suffer more than 1 point, but your gain would be better AC (full plate) and possibly some damage. I'll take a look into it and see if I can make everything fit.
I also might be totally off, but ranger does really not seem like a good choice to me.
Even in your previous incarnations, I think fighter would trump ranger, skillpoints aside. You take assassin so late that you'd have the prereqs for it if you'd want to anyhow. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
I've been thinking more along the lines of Fighter myself the last couple of days. Maybe it can work out, but I have yet to make a build draft. 15 dex is required for Ambidexterity, which means even less strength. And a fighter/cleric combination would be rough on the ability points considering wisdom, strength AND the 15 dex. Not to mention int for skill points and con for much needed hp. I wonder how it may turn out..
I've thought about similar dual weapon builds for the fun of it. I think I came up with 10 ranger 28 cleric 2 monk. With a 19 wis, if you can buff with spells and items to the +12 cap you will have a +9 wis modifier, which means your AC in robes will be 1 higher than your AC in full plate assuming you have no dex. In all likelihood, you should be able to get your dex up to around +6 or so with buffs, meaning you are getting around 6 more AC in robes than full plate. And lets face it, strength characters in robes look pretty cool. If you decide you don't need 28 cleric levels you can also take more monk levels for the speed bonuses too.
Edited By DocRufio on 10/06/09 04:21
See what you think of something like this. Note you could drop 2 int for 15 starting dex to wind up at 16 if you wanted to go monk and unarmored (you'd get +7 AC from wis/dex, full plate + dex is +9, so you'd only need a little gear to get higher AC. You lose UMD, though). I whipped this together at 1 AM so please forgive any glaring errors I know I made, this isn't even really leveling optimized likely, just something that would at a minimum work...I think.
Cleric 26/Fighter 12/Monk or Rogue 2
Starting Stats Str 14 (26) Dex 14 (15) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 (20) Cha 8
BAB: 25 Mundane AB: 37 AB with full cleric buffs and +12 str: 63 Attack schedule dual-wielding and hasted: 61/56/51/61/56/63/56
1 Fighter (1) Weapon Focus, Toughness 2 Cleric (1) 3 Cleric (2) Knockdown 4 Cleric (3) Wis +1 5 Cleric (4) 6 Cleric (5) Blind Fight 7 Cleric (6) 8 Cleric (7) Wis +2 9 Cleric (8) Extend Spell 10 Cleric (9) 11 Cleric (10) 12 Cleric (11) Wis +3 Improved Critical 13 Cleric (12) 14 Cleric (13) 15 Cleric (14) Two Weapon Fighting 16 Fighter (2) Dex +1 Ambidexterity 17 Fighter (3) 18 Cleric (15) Improved Two Weapon Fighting 19 Cleric (16) 20 Cleric (17) Wis +4 21 Fighter (4) Great Str I, Epic Weapon Focus 22 Rogue/Monk (1) 23 Cleric (18) 24 Fighter (5) Str +1 Great Str II 25 Cleric (19) 26 Cleric (20) 27 Fighter (6) Great Str III, Weapon Specialization 28 Cleric (21) Str +2 29 Fighter (7) 30 Fighter (8) Great Str IV, Epic Weapon Specialization 31 Cleric (22) 32 Cleric (23) Str +3 Great Wisdom I 33 Fighter (9) Great Str V 34 Fighter (10) Epic Prowess 35 Cleric (24) 36 Cleric (25) Str +4 Great Str VI 37 Fighter (11) 38 Fighter (12) Armor Skin 39 Rogue/Monk (2) Great Str VII 40 Cleric (26) Str +5 Great Wisdom II
It looks good. I havent taken a close look, but it looks good! Besides, you have 24 clierci! What else do you need 
