Greetings all. Thanks for letting me join up. I've always been curious about how one goes about developing an optimum character so this guild is a great thing.

To begin with, I've had this concept in my mind of a "Woodsman" who dual wields hand axes. A sort of slice and dice type of fellow ala the Kukri Master. In other words, devastatingly fast with his blows. Also perhaps, instead of the typical bow for the woodsman, perhaps throwing axes.

Anyone have any ideas how to build a fellow like this? I assume he would be quite heavy on the Ranger levels to fit his persona... If you really want to stick with the Ranger conncept, I would recommend something like Ranger 21/Fighter 12/WM 7 (or Ranger 23 Fighter 10/WM 7; you lose 1 Fighter feat but gain 1 Ranger feat).

If you find that you have enough feats, you could lower your Fighter levels and take more WM, but personally I like to have lots of feats. Note that if you choose to use throwing axes you may want 13 WM levels so that you can take both Hand Axe and Throwing Axe as Weapons of Choice.

As long as you wear Light Armor you will get the use of all the dual-wield feats from your Ranger levels, so you can use the bonus feats from your Fighter levels both for Weapon Spec + Epic Weapon Spec, as well as to pick up some of the WM pre-reqs.

I would go Human for the extra feat and extra skill credits, and of course you will want to go Str-based, but you will want some Dex since you will be wearing light armor.

With this build you should be able to get 5 or 6 Favored Enemies (most of the PC races if you are doing PvP), and with Bane of Enemies you will get +2 AB and 5 + 2d6 damage vs. all your Favored Enemies.

Epic Weapon Spec will give you +6 damage on every hit, and with the WM levels you should have a x4 critical multiplier and roughly a 20% chance to threaten a critical every hit (with the Keen property this increases to 25%).

Alternatively (and this might be a stronger build), you could go with Druid rather than Ranger. You really only need 15 or 16 Druid levels, so that lets you take lots of Fighter. I would recommend something like Druid 15/Fighter 18/WM 7, as you generally need a lot of feats to dual-wield with a Str-based character, and a lot more feats for WM.

Of course, you don't HAVE to take WM levels if you don't want to, it's just that they give you a better chance of getting a critical hit (normally, you would only have a 10% chance to threaten a critical with a Hand Axe; WM extends this to 20% AND increases the crit multiplier from x3 to x4).

If you wanted to stay away from the WM idea because you find it too feat-intensive, Rogue would be a very good substitute, as it has NO pre-reqs, gives you more skill credits than any other class, and lets you do some nice sneak attack damage.

Of course, in order to get sneak attacks, you need to either flank your enemy or catch him flat-footed, which generally means using stealth, although of course there are ways around this.

A very versatile version of this build would be something like a Rogue 13/Druid 15/Fighter 12, although if you take your Druid levels up to 20 you can get Elder elemental form, which is nice because it's crit immune.

If you want me to create one of these builds for you, I can; I've already got a few similar builds. I just thought I'd throw out some ideas for you in case you wanted to create it yourself. Wow. Thanks. If you could throw down a build or two here that would be great.

As for which one to go with, I'm not entirely sure. Conceptually, I was thinking of the Ranger as it does fit the personna of the "woodsman" very well. So I guess I would stick with that. The main strength I am looking for in this character would be the dual wielding hand axes. So perhaps maximizing that aspect would be great but without making him too vulnerable. I mentioned the kukri master because I think he is not too great defensively but his speed and overall damage usually ends the battle quickly.

Also, the throwing axe thing would be good to have in there as well.

What I am curious about though is whether or not this character would be able to survive and flourish in a combat environment. Is this build survivable or is it more just for RP?

If it is only an RP build, perhaps you could write down a second build that is more survivable/optimal

Thanks for your help.

Edited By Banshe on 02/22/05 09:04

Here's version 1 of the Woodsman build. It's a fairly solid offensive build, but it has a very low AC (as all Str-based dual-wielders do), and it's saves aren't the greatest.

Still, the AB isn't too bad, and the damage potential should be there, especially vs. Favored Enemies. You have a few Ranger spells to play around with, as well as an animal companion (I suggest Panther for the sneak attacks), and you can use Taunt to lower your opponents AC, although this may not work against spellcasters as they tend to have high Concentration checks.

Here's the build:

Ranger 21/Fighter 12/WM 7

Race: Human

Stats

Starting

Str 15
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

+10 Str

Ending

Str 26
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8


Feats

1 Power Attack, Cleave
3 Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Hand Axe *
6 Dodge, Mobility *
9 Expertise, Spring Attack *
12 Whirlwind Attack, Ambidexterity *
15 Improved Critical, Knockdown *
18 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
21 Great Str I, Epic Weapon Focus: Hand Axe *
24 Weapon Spec, Epic Weapon Spec *
27 Great Cleave
30 Bane of Enemies
33 Epic Prowess
36 Overwhelming Critical
39 Devastating Critical

* Fighter bonus feat


Skills

Discipline: 43
Healing: 43
Intimidate: 6 (4 min for WM)
Taunt: 43
Tumble: 21

Total: 173 skill credits

AB:

30 base
+8 Str
+1 WF
+2 EWF
+1 Superior WF
+1 Epic Prowess
-2 Dual-wield
_______
41 AB w/ mundane Hand Axes Here's a Druid version of the build. You lose Taunt and Bane of Enemies, but you get 8th lvl Divine Spellcasting rather than only 4th lvl.

Although your caster level isn't really all that high, this still adds a lot, including such spells as Heal, Harm, Aura of Vitality, and Creeping Doom, among others.


Druid 15/Fighter 18/WM 7
(pre-epic Druid 4/Fighter 12/WM 4)

Race: Human

Stats

Starting

Str 15
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

+4 Wis, +6 Str

Ending

Str 26
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 8


Feats

1 Power Attack, Cleave
2 Two-Weapon Fighting *
3 Ambidexterity, Weapon Focus: Hand Axe *
5 Dodge *
6 Mobility
7 Spring Attack *
9 Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave *
12 Extend Spell
15 Improved Critical, Knockdown *
18 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Spec *
21 Great Str I, Epic Weapon Focus: Hand Axe *
24 Great Str II, Epic Weapon Spec *
27 Great Str III, Epic Prowess *
30 Great Str IV,
33 Great Str V,
36 Overwhelming Critical
39 Devastating Critical

* Fighter bonus feat


Skills

Concentration: 40
Discipline: 41
Intimidate: 4 (min for WM)
Spellcraft: 40
Tumble: 20

Total: 165 skill credits

AB:

29 base
+8 Str
+1 WF
+2 EWF
+1 Epic Prowess
+1 Superior Weapon Focus
-2 Dual-wield
_______
40 AB w/ mundane Hand Axes Thanks!!!!! This has been instrumental in helping me understand character builds.

I was wondering about one thing though. You did make the Ranger STR based. Is there a reason why he shouldn't be dex based? I always thought small weapon (especially dual wield without shield) lends itself better to a dex based char. Yes, that's generally the case, and you could certianly do it, as it would save you some feats and get your a better AC. The main reason to go Str-based with this build is damage.

For a WM, the main way that you do damage is through criticals, and your Str mod is multiplied by your crit multiplier for higher damage. Not only that, but with Overwhelming Critical you do another 2d6 damage on a critical (which I believe is also then multiplied by the critical multiplier), and you need at least 23 Str for Overwhelming Critical.

Thus, although you could do it, it doesn't make much sense with a WM build. If you really wanted to Dex-based, which isn't a bad idea, you'd probably want to start as a Rogue (take at least 13 Rogue levels; you'll need Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll) so that you could get extra damage from sneak attacks, and also so that you could pick up Epic Dodge.

The only disadvantage of going with a Rogue is that you need a way to get sneak attacks, so you would probably want to invest some points into Hide and Move Silently. You could also use summons or your animal companion as a meat shield, and then flank the target, or you could pick up wands or scrolls of Darkness/Ultravision or Improved Invis, if you have the cash (make sure to put some points into UMD).

Alternatively, you could go Cleric rather than Druid (for the second build), and take Plant and Trickery domains. You'd still get Barkskin and Creeping Doom (as well as Heal and Harm), and you could still summon creatures (although no animal companion), but in addition you'd get much stronger buffs, including Improved Invis. Ah, for Rogue you mean this build:

A very versatile version of this build would be something like a Rogue 13/Druid 15/Fighter 12, although if you take your Druid levels up to 20 you can get Elder elemental form, which is nice because it's crit immune.

Hmm. Interesting. From what I understand, the main issue is getting sneak attacks. With the Rogue levels you could get Hide and MS covered. But for continual sneak attacks you would need a diversion (companion or summons) or HiPs.

Forgive my constant questions but what about the Number of attacks per round? Does a monk share the same advantages Dex-wise as a thief but have more attacks? Or does that only go into fists? Also, don't monks and druids share benefits from high wisdom? Plus the CoT with the great wisdom feat?

Sorry been reading up here on the forums and find myself with more questions than answers.

Would CoT/Monk/Druid do anything interesting? Lots of attacks, good AB and good damage with dual wield hand axes?

And dare I ask about shifters?

Edited By Banshe on 02/23/05 16:45

Quote: Posted 02/23/05 16:15:43 (GMT) -- Banshe
Forgive my constant questions but what about the Number of attacks per round? Does a monk share the same advantages Dex-wise as a thief but have more attacks? Or does that only go into fists? Also, don't monks and druids share benefits from high wisdom? Plus the CoT with the great wisdom feat?

Actually, if they're using either Kamas (1d6 20/x2 weapons, tiny so even a Halfling can dual-wield) or their fists, Monks can get more attacks per round than any other character in the game. While the normal # of attacks per round a character can get is 4 (with +16 or better pre-epic BAB), a Monk can get 6 attacks.

Dual-wielding Kamas with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting will get you up to 8 attacks, and Haste and Flurry of Blows will add another attack each (although Flurry incurs a -2 penalty to AB for all attacks).

If you are only normally getting 5 attacks per round base, you can use Divine Power to get you up to 6, provided that you are able to cast at least 3rd level Cleric spells (Strength Domain gets you Divine Power as a 3rd level spell).

However, as I said this only works with fists or Kamas, so it wouldn't really help you if you're using Hand Axes. As far as the synergy with caster classes, that is because Monks receive a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom mod, which divine casters need to cast spells. However, if you wear armor of any kind, including a shield, you lose this bonus, so it's mainly useful for Dex-based characters.

Quote: 
Sorry been reading up here on the forums and find myself with more questions than answers.

Would CoT/Monk/Druid do anything interesting? Lots of attacks, good AB and good damage with dual wield hand axes?

And dare I ask about shifters?

Like I said, the Hand Axes don't work with the Monk attack table, so I wouldn't bother with Monk if that's what you want to do.

CoT would work perfectly well, although you need a Weapon Focus in a melee weapon to take CoT, which is kind of annoying if you don't already have the Martial Weapon Prof., as it means you'll have to take a Weapon Focus with a Simple weapon.

Also, if you go CoT, you'll probably want a decent Cha, as all the CoT's special abilities are based on Cha (except for the bonus to saving throws).

Generally speaking I prefer Fighter to CoT, as they get Heavy Armor Prof., don't require any Cha, have no pre-reqs, get you an extra bonus feat at lvl 1, and allow you to increase your damage with Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec.

The nice thing about CoT, however, is that it's a prestige class, which means you don't have to worry about it in terms of getting an XP penalty, whereas with Fighter you may have to be a little more careful.

As for Shifter, what do you want to know? It's a very versatile class, and it tends to be very effective on low-magic worlds, although maybe not quite as effective on high-magic worlds, as most of the forms don't get a particularly high AB.

Monk/Druid/Shifter is a very common build, partly because of the Wis bonus, partly because they get Discipline and Tumble as class skills (among other things), and partly because you get the Monk's attack table in shifted forms, provided they don't use a weapon.

Of course, you can also get Cleave for free if you take Monk as your 1st class, you get IKD for free at Monk lvl 6, and Improved Evasion comes for free at Monk lvl 9 (Monks get regular Evasion at lvl 2).

That said, if you want a better AB you may want to consider taking at least 15 levels of Paladin or Cleric (I prefer Cleric as they get more spells). Dwarven Defender can get you some nice DR, which can make a very good tank, but again you have a low AB.

Some people do Wizard for the damage shields (and so they can toast people in caster form), but you can't cast in Shifter form unless you take the PrC Shifter class (take the Natural Spell feat), and then you can't cast in any of the Bioware forms, but only the ones you shift to using the PrC system.

As for the various forms, you get Epic Wildshape forms at lvl 13, and Epic Humanoid forms at 17. My favorite among the Epic Humanoid forms is the Kobold Commando, as he gets 5d6 sneak attacks and HiPS, and can also cast Invis. an unlimited # of times.

As for the Epic shapes, Dragon Shape is generally considered to be the strongest, because of it's awesome stats, breath weapon, and 40/- DR, although Rakshasa is nice because it's IMMUNE to spells of 8th lvl or lower, and it actually has some casting ability (can cast Ice Storm, Mestil's Acid Breath, and Dispel Magic; infinite uses).

Undead Shape is nice for Risen Lord form, which is a Scythe-wielding lich sort of guy, with 50% immunities to slashing and piercing damage, among with his other immunities. The disadvantage of Undead form is that you have virtually no way to heal yourself, aside from Negative Energy spells, and remember you can't cast in shifted form. You're also vulnerable to turning, but of course you're immune to sneaks and critical hits, as well as mind spells and what not. Also Undead Shape is the only Epic shape that has no Wisdom requirement to take.

Of course, Construct Shape gets most of the immunities that Undead Shape gets, but they can actually use potions to heal themselves, and they're not vulnerable to turning. Generally speaking, I think the Iron Golem is considered to be the best of the Construct Shapes.

I'm not sure, but I think the Iron Golem you can turn into using the 9th lvl spell Shapechange is identical to the Iron Golem you get from the Epic Shifter feat, although I know the dragon form in Shapechange is weaker, as it's stats aren't as good and it doesn't have access to a breath weapon (I doubt it gets 40/- DR either).