I've been kicking around a build idea for some time now; and I was wondering if anyone would care to take a look at what I've got and advise on improvements. My biggest headache is the bab, and trying to figure out how to put in some epic focus umd onto the character; and also toughness, both of which I cannot seem to fit. Here is how I've done it at this point:
CLASSES: Rogue19: Need this for my basic requirements of Epic Dodge and SelfConceal5. Also as it's a dexy build, need the uncanny dodge to retain that dex ac and sneak attacks to help with damage output Wizard5: Need this to get access to some buffing, and Palemaster. Took 4 levels pre-epic so as to maximise on base attack PaleMaster16: Need the ac; and epic mage armor for same.
RACE: Halfling, rogue is favoured class AND a dex improvement. STR is down by 2 points, but this can be compensated far easier that -2 cons that the elf gets. Con needs to be at least 12 to start since we're going to be getting a very low 220-odd hp (I got around that without rerolling) at lvl40.
SKILLS: On Rogue levels increase tumble and hide. On PaleMaster levels increase Hide [class skill] On Wizard and Palemaster levels increase Spellcraft. Max out skills at: Tumble: 40 Hide: 30 SpellCraft: 26; although you can push as far as you like for better saves OTHER: you have a fair lot of skillpoints, I would recommend spending your spare ones on lvl39 (last rogue level). INT14 is taken for lvl4 spells (empowered cats grace and empowered bulls str)
CREATION: Halfling Any non-good STR 10 DEX 20(32) CON 12 WIS 8 INT 14 CHA 8
Final Stats: AC Unbuffed, running: 41 AC Ubuffed, improved Expertise (combat): 51 AC Long-term Buffed, running: 61 AC Long-term Buffed, improved Expertist (combat): 71 AC Fully Buffed, Running: 65 AC Fully Buffed, improved Expertist (combat): 75 The following is just if ITWF is the way to go. Personally, I think it's a waste as this is an ac build not a melee build, and would be better to wear a shield perhaps (get shield proficiency, exotic weapons, imp.crit or weapon focus kukri perhaps? dunno, anyone got some advice on this?) BAB unbuffed: +33/+28/+23 DUALWIELD Daggers: +31/+28/+23; +31/+28
Standard wizard buffs will only last around 5 game hours; this would be about long enough I think to wipe out a boss nasty, but is not recommended to use for general running about. Epic Mage Armor is fixed, iirc, at 24 hours so that can be cast any time when entering area's you are unsure of.
Nobody got any input on this? Too boring/not any good?
I like the idea of the build alot, the only problem with this build as I can see it is the fact that the AB is going to be so low as you stated, not to mention you throw onto that the use of imp. expertise and your Ab just went down another 10. Now if this were for party play your ac would allow you to tank and others to kill. I do love the build,(As I'm partial to E.dodge and SC V myself:) ). Also I'd drop the 2 weapon feats, use a shield for that added AC since this is going to be an AC monster, and use those feats to compliemnt the fact that it is going to be that type of character. Hope that helps a little:)
Jim,(Fist.)
Actually; yeh it does. I think your point on the shield is good; does this affect dex at all?
Using a shield will not affect your Dex at all. A Large or Tower shield will affect your sneaking around a little, but it will improve your AC , plus give you a little extra AB back by not dual weilding. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
I think you should focus your skills on trapping. Since you lack combat skills, your best bet is to make a bunch load of traps, set them up and use a darts to fire at your enemy behind the huge lines of traps. After they get stunned parlayzed or utterly destryoed by the traps, you should hide again and make use of a kukri+shield. I do think that C5 is wasted here. High AC and E-dodge should be more than enough. 5 feats will net you a gain of +2 AC/AB and a ESF:set traps as well. Remember to take 5 ranks in make traps for the synergy on traps. Lose the two weapon fighting feats. Replace it with sf:traps.
Actually, yeh in most circumstances I guess SC5 could be seen as a waste here. I really penned this around the type of ac my own pw requires in order to have an easier time of levelling, and survivability after lvl40. Some places feature critters with bab well over the 67 mark - hitting for a ton of damage a time. Highest AC I know of on the server is around 105 or so, that is with the uber of uber items (all of which are non-drop of course).
The real benefit I see in SC5 and epic dodge + high ac? Well, there are times when you're swamped by a large mob; and even in a mob of 5 critters there are bound to be a good few 20 rolls. Epic dodge takes care of most of these, I would guess. The 50% conceal then kicks in to avoid the nasty boss bab that you can only avoid the first successful hit from.
If I read it right; SC5 also reduces a mage's chances of casting on you, and that is the secondary requirement I had for my build.
Edited By Khandahr on 04/27/05 00:19
So the Idea is to gain tons of AC plus e-dodge and SC5?
Quote: Posted 04/24/05 12:20:34 (GMT) -- Khandahr Epic Mage Armor is fixed, iirc, at 24 hours so that can be cast any time when entering area's you are unsure of.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from the forums and the Grimoire is that Epic Mage Armor has the same duration as normal Mage Armor, i.e. 1 hour/level.
Steve
Quote: So the Idea is to gain tons of AC plus e-dodge and SC5?
That was pretty much my first aim with this build idea. It is likely that there are much better ways to do this; so any idea's for improvement - or increasing capability to deflect blows - are desperately needed.
Secondary to this was to get a reasonable damage factor out (sneak attacks for lvl19 rogue help in this; as do wiz enchantments when cast off scrolls to make them higher level).
On the Epic Mage Armor, I'm really not sure. I've done some investigations into it; and for my lvl40 wiz it appears to last the same amount of time as on a lvl24 palemaster build. This could be a pw issue tho.
Edited By Khandahr on 04/27/05 15:24
First off the epic mage armor is ALMOST not ideal for you if the server has great AC items.
i think doing rogue/bard/PM is better somehow.
Never thought of Bard actually. Only limitation that comes to mind is the spell requirements are based off cha; not int, so I would basically have no innate spells - I need the int for skills to get the SC5, tumble, hide, spellcraft, etc skills. But... that might be workaroundable. I'll try work that into the mix and see how that comes out.
Thanks!
Quote: Posted 04/27/05 15:19:16 (GMT) -- Khandahr On the Epic Mage Armor, I'm really not sure. I've done some investigations into it; and for my lvl40 wiz it appears to last the same amount of time as on a lvl24 palemaster build. This could be a pw issue tho.
That actually leads to a further question I almost brought up before
For builds like this, where the character actually gets the Epic Spells for his Pale Master class (i.e. by having 15+ levels of PM even though you still don't have 9th level spells), and not his original casting class, which class level is used to determine duration? Pale Master or the base class? I would have assumed the base class, but I don't like to assume, .
Steve
This is one I'm quite confident on; it's based on palemaster levels. I've tried this out quite heavily on various palemaster builds (often only getting 3 to 6 levels of the arcane class). Epic warding is the most useful one to test with as well; as it is round based. In the build here; if you cahnge epic mage armor to epic warding, it lasts well over 5 rounds (quickest test is to put warding + round-based spell up, the warding outlasts the round-based spell by quite a lot); so is definitely not based on the base caster level
Yeah, that's what I would have guessed. As for Epic Mage Armor, I wonder if it's simply impossible to have a duration extend beyond 24 hours. Not exactly something I would like to test *stares at a computer for 48 minutes*, but it's possible that all hour/level spells simply top out at 24 hours, and so for both of the build you mentioned, it would seem like a flat 24 hours even if it was hour/level.
Oh, I guess you could use the dm_settime command to pass the time sooner, but I'm generally leery of using those codes when actually testing something. And anyway, not like it matters. You can't get the spell without so many caster levels that hour/level may as well be infinite anyway, since you'll probably rest way before the duration ends.
Steve
I like your build!
I have tried something similar with a bard5/shadowdancer19/palemaster16 build, but never got quite satisfied with it.
Your build has better spells. BAB is about the same. My build has a low lvl song. You have plenty sneak bonus - when you can hit something.
In a high magic mod, I'd rather take epic warding than epic mage armor.
The problem with this kind of build is the low AB. With your wizard build, true strike can give you some short moments of glory. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
Yeh; truestrike was one of the things I thought of as enhancement possibility. Can't recall if they can be potion'd; but if they can then it might be more worth one's while to change Empower feat for Brew Potion feat.. this way if you're in a tough battle where ye can't hit except for 20's; just swig a sip of TrueStrike to get a healthy boost .
You have Scribe scroll. So you could make a lot of True Strike scrolls. If you use True Strike when hasted, you get more attacks from each casting. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
You have Scribe scroll. So you could make a lot of True Strike scrolls. If you use True Strike when hasted, you get more attacks from each casting.
True. I tend to ignore the scrolls as the action would seem out of place in the middle of battle.. and not sure but I think it's an AoO when you use scroll isn't it? Either way, a couple spare scrolls of truestrike wouldn't hurt, or even a slot or two devoted to it.
I like the idea of the build alot, the only problem with this build as I can see it is the fact that the AB is going to be so low as you stated, not to mention you throw onto that the use of imp. expertise and your Ab just went down another 10. Now if this were for party play your ac would allow you to tank and others to kill. I do love the build,(As I'm partial to E.dodge and SC V myself:) ). Also I'd drop the 2 weapon feats, use a shield for that added AC since this is going to be an AC monster, and use those feats to compliemnt the fact that it is going to be that type of character. Hope that helps a little:)
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Yeah, that's what I would have guessed. As for Epic Mage Armor, I wonder if it's simply impossible to have a duration extend beyond 24 hours. Not exactly something I would like to test *stares at a computer for 48 minutes*, but it's possible that all hour/level spells simply top out at 24 hours, and so for both of the build you mentioned, it would seem like a flat 24 hours even if it was hour/level.
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You have Scribe scroll. So you could make a lot of True Strike scrolls.