Here's a challenge... a Shadowdancer/Arcane Archer that starts with Wizard rather than Bard. The idea is a wizard who casts from the shadows and then takes out his bow and lets fly.
The trick is that I want to actually use all three classes, rather than just taking Wizard in order to get to AA.
I sort of envision using area affect spells to start with, then picking off the dazed/paralyzed/entangled targets with the bow.
The other catch is that I'd like to have all 3 classes established by level 15, since I play mostly HotU.
I know that if it can be done, someone here can do it... so the question is, can it be done, and, can it be done in such a way that it's actually playable and survivable? _________________ Walk Softly and Carry an Enchanted Weapon.
Well, I don't have the time to work it out, but it definitely can be done. You would need 12 levels of wizard to qualify for Arcane Archer (you'd need 17 levels of wizard for SD, so you're better off picking up arcane archer first so you can get shadowdancer before level 15). For your 5 regular feats (levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12) You'll need to pick up Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus Longbow, Dodge, and Mobility, plus one other of your choosing (maybe toughness or rapid shot). Then, take your first AA level at level 13, and make sure you pump Hide to 10, Move Silently to 8, and Tumble to 5 by that point. Then you can take your first SD level at level 14. The only problem is that you couldn't get the full 4 attacks per round. With 12 levels of wizard, the best you can manage is 3 attacks per round. But, it is definitely possible.
Steve
Actually, Steve, I played with it a few times and did exactly that. Then I took another AA at 15, to get Imbue Arrow.
Now, where would you take it from here? Three SD levels to get the extra attack and then back to AA for a while? _________________ Walk Softly and Carry an Enchanted Weapon.
AA attack progression is better than sd (AA uses fighter progression of 1ab per level pre-epic, while SD is only 3ab-per-4-levels).
Quote: Posted 05/12/05 21:59:37 (GMT) -- Clever_Halfling Now, where would you take it from here? Three SD levels to get the extra attack and then back to AA for a while?
Quote: Posted 05/13/05 08:23:25 (GMT) -- Khandahr
AA attack progression is better than sd (AA uses fighter progression of 1ab per level pre-epic, while SD is only 3ab-per-4-levels).
I think his point was that since he's already taken 1 level of SD, the next 3 SD levels would each give him +1 BAB, thus being just as good as taking Arcane Archer, at least in terms of BAB.
I think his point was that since he's already taken 1 level of SD, the next 3 SD levels would each give him +1 BAB, thus being just as good as taking Arcane Archer, at least in terms of BAB.
Steve
Actually, if BAB is gonna be the same no matter which way I go, I will probably pick based on feats. _________________ Walk Softly and Carry an Enchanted Weapon.
I am floored! AA's get 1 attack per lvl! sd's get 2/3. Regardless of what you thought he said, it is better to take AA than sd before 20! and that is what we are talkin about, right? what to do from 15-20 or am i mistaken.
He asked to have all 3 classes to be "used".. what does this mean? For example, say i choose to take sd 1 and leave the rest of the lvls to wiz and aa... am i not "using" sd? How many lvls of wiz is "using" the wiz? Do i need to cast lv 9 spells? Cuz, heres the thing.. regardless of how many lvls of wiz you take, you will NEVER have a great DC when you are factorin in other classes. That means that you will "use" the abilities of that class less cuz, well, you would suck in those classes vs a pure. And how many lvls is "using" AA? 10? 11? 20?
So, takin all this into consideration, the "best" from what you have offered up as rules (a caster that can hide in the shadows and pull out his bow) is 20wiz/10sd/10aa, tryin to work 9wiz/10aa/1sd pre epic. If you can live with "using" sd only for HIPS (which isnt really what you asked), then it would be 29wiz/1sd/10aa to get the best caster with range option. NOW, if all you want is a caster that can sorta use a bow, 38wiz/1sd/1aa... or some form of that.
hope that helps??
peace
Quote: Posted 05/20/05 03:42:31 (GMT) -- avado
I am floored! AA's get 1 attack per lvl! sd's get 2/3. Regardless of what you thought he said, it is better to take AA than sd before 20! and that is what we are talkin about, right? what to do from 15-20 or am i mistaken.
Sigh. First of all, SDs get 3/4. No class gets 2/3. It's either 1/1, 3/4, or 1/2. Second of all, the point was that he'd already taken one level of SD pre-epic. That means that, at least for the next 3 levels of SD (shadowdancer 2-4), his BAB would go up 1 point every level. That's because he's already past the one level of shadowdancer that gives him no BAB increase. Therefore, whether he takes all the rest of his pre-epic levels as Arcane Archer, or he takes up to 3 more Shadowdancer and the rest Arcane Archer, he'd still have the same BAB at level 20.
If he takes just one more level of SD pre-epic, he gets access to Evasion and Uncanny Dodge I that much sooner. So pre-epic he'd be 12 wizard/2 SD/8AA, and have the exact same BAB as he would if he went 12 wizard/1 SD/9AA. He'd have one less AB (although the same AB in the end) in exchange for getting those two nice feats that much earlier. Hell, go 12 wizard/3 SD/7 AA. Then you again have the same exact pre-epic BAB, the same AB as the 2 SD version, but you also get Shadow Daze. The point as, as long as you've already taken 1 SD level pre-epic, you can take up to 4 SD levels total without weakening your BAB at all.
Now, if he only wants to take one level of SD, that's all moot. I was working under the assumption that he was aiming towards at least Epic Dodge if not Self Concealment, which would need 10 levels of SD.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 05/20/05 05:08
LOL so i got the ab wrong.. whatever! I could really care less if its 3/2 or 3/4! The point is its better to take aa FOR AB than sd or wiz! Any other discussion is an exercise in argumentation btw steve, I respect your buildin abilities so thanks for the correction
Here's a challenge... a Shadowdancer/Arcane Archer that starts with Wizard rather than Bard. The idea is a wizard who casts from the shadows and then takes out his bow and lets fly.
The trick is that I want to actually use all three classes, rather than just taking Wizard in order to get to AA.
I sort of envision using area affect spells to start with, then picking off the dazed/paralyzed/entangled targets with the bow.
... can it be done in such a way that it's actually playable and survivable?
The whole point of my post is that the way the request was made is to vague. All i did was point out the options. Next step would be for the requester to search the build index for a build that has wiz/sd/aa and see which he likes
Now, if he only wants to take one level of SD, that's all moot. I was working under the assumption that he was aiming towards at least Epic Dodge if not Self Concealment, which would need 10 levels of SD.
Steve
Wow, wasn't aware that I'd opened such a big can of worms.
The answer is, I want a good balance of abilities/feats from all three classes, which is why I wanted to start with Wizard instead of Bard or Sorcerer... I want a good balance of spells, good archery abilities, and good stealth/defensive abilities. So I'll probably be picking up some more SD as well as some more Wiz and more AA. _________________ Walk Softly and Carry an Enchanted Weapon.
Quote: Posted 05/20/05 15:10:53 (GMT) -- avado The point is its better to take aa FOR AB than sd or wiz!
Yeah, you're right that it was a bit vague. I had assumed that he wanted to decent number of shadowdancer levels, which does seem to be the case. Since he has already taken one level of shadowdancer pre-epic, then taking 1-3 more of his intended levels of shadowdancer pre-epic will not hurt his AB at level 40 by a single point. Taking those extra levels of SD early on would only hurt his AB if he were taking them instead of Arcane Archer levels, i.e. if he was increasing the number of shadowdancer levels he was already intending to take at the expense of arcane archer levels, then that would definitely be bad for AB. Again, it was vague, but I was assuming that wasn't the case, thus moving at least one more pre-epic after already having taken one is in my opinion, a very good idea. If won't hurt his BAB at all, nor as AB at the end of the build, but it would give him Uncanny Dodge and Evasion early on, which I think would be worth the delayed gratification from that 1 point of AB.
Oh, and I didn't mean to come off confrontational in that last post, which I definitely did. I just get annoyed when someone thinks I don't understand something as basic as AB, . My intention wasn't to get him to drop Arcane Archer levels. I was just saying that, in this particular situation, you could move some of the other shadowdancer levels (at most 3 more) that I assumed he wanted to take by the end into the pre-epic level, and still finish at level 40 with the same AB as if he has left those few in epic levels.
Now, if you reeeeeeeeally wanted to powergame, you'd move all shadowdancer levels post-epic in order to maximize BAB/AB. But that seems to be against your plan for the character.
btw steve, I respect your buildin abilities so thanks for the correction
. My intention wasn't to get him to drop Arcane Archer levels. I was just saying that, in this particular situation, you could move some of the other shadowdancer levels (at most 3 more) that I assumed he wanted to take by the end into the pre-epic level, and still finish at level 40 with the same AB as if he has left those few in epic levels.