Having put a few thoughts into DDs and similar classes, I've been wondering about the relative viability of certain build set ups. I'm not really asking to have a char built (I can do that too ) but rather looking for input into which kind of build would be best to pursue:
Idea 1: Fighter (or inserts any other class here) / DD / SD Maybe 6 / 24 / 10 for high DR, and focussing on DEX and CON for Epic DR and Epic Dodge. Might be taking more SD and less DD depending on needs
+Should have good AB (depending on base class) +High DR +Hard to hit (especially if someone casts improved invis on you) +High HP +HiPS
-Will likely be doing little damage as DEX based -Questionable if Epic Dodge is worth it for a DD with high DR -Likely using light armor -Not specialized on one stat -Will likely rely on a mage/cleric for buffs (most non-caster builds do though)
Might be a great blocker char that can take a lot of damage and block doorways and fiddle with the minds of his opponents.
Idea 2:
Wizard / DD / PM
Likely to be around 4 / 20 /16
+ Epic Spells (warding and mage armor) possible right? + High DR + High HP + High AC + Can minorly buff
- Terrible AB (few attacks) - Short lasting spells - Likely weak against spells
Kind of like a True Dwarven Wall. You can hardly hit it and if you hit it, you'll do almost no damage at all, especially if speccing in CON and taking the Epic DR feats.
Note: on the server I play on, Tenser's transformation hasbeen modified that it gives wizards the full 4 attacks if their pre-epic levels are all wizard (also for sorceror) and that you have 100% ASF with tensered but you use the equip you actually wear and are not transformed.
+ 6 attacks a round + 5 of those at max AB + HiPS + Epic Spells (think so...) + Great variety of spells (arcane and divine) + Ultimate buffer
- Will likely hit +20AB hardcap quickly - Low max AB reachable - Low caster levels - Specialized on both INT and WIS
The idea behind the build is to buff up as cleric, then wizard and tenser. Being hasted via spell and taking rapid reload feat, you have 2 base attacks, +2 from tenser, +1 from haste, +1 from feat. Likely also Zen Archery so as not to have to dump too many points into DEX.
Not sure though if this build would work.
So...what do you guys and gals think about those builds? Any comments are appreciated _________________ Inactive for a while
Edited By GhostNWN on 06/15/05 22:56
I think you're miscounting the number of attacks you'd get with a crossbow for that last idea. A character normally only gets 1 attack per round with a crossbow, regardless of how many attacks per round they normally get. Contrary to what the manual says, Rapid Reload only gives you 1 extra attack period, and that's only if you have the BAB for it (which you do). With haste, that gives you 3 attacks. As for your modified tensor's...well, that would depend on how it was implemented. If they made it like divine power, in that your pre-epic BAB goes up to 20 and you get any extra attacks you would deserve from that, then you wouldn't get any extra crossbow attacks, because a BAB 20 character with 4 normal attacks would sill only have 2 attacks with a crossbow with Rapid Reload. If it's some other way where you are just given flat out bonus attacks like haste, well, that would be different. So, at best 5 attacks, and at worst 3. And knowing which of those it is speaks directly to your question of how viable that character is.
Steve
Edited By Stravinsky00 on 06/16/05 00:00
Quote: Posted 06/15/05 22:56:05 (GMT) -- GhostNWN Idea 1: Fighter (or inserts any other class here) / DD / SD Maybe 6 / 24 / 10 for high DR, and focussing on DEX and CON for Epic DR and Epic Dodge. Might be taking more SD and less DD depending on needs
+Should have good AB (depending on base class) +High DR +Hard to hit (especially if someone casts improved invis on you) +High HP +HiPS
-Will likely be doing little damage as DEX based -Questionable if Epic Dodge is worth it for a DD with high DR -Likely using light armor -Not specialized on one stat -Will likely rely on a mage/cleric for buffs (most non-caster builds do though)
Might be a great blocker char that can take a lot of damage and block doorways and fiddle with the minds of his opponents.
Click Here
It was quite good. While it doesnt get the 30/- possible DR it does get close with 24/-. What a purer DD build lacks is magical defenses. SD adds improved evasion, slippery mind and HipS. The SD compliments the DD defenses very well. As for being DEX based , bear in mind that fighter in the build gives you +6 damage. This is equivalent to a STR boost of 12 when compared against a build without fighter levels. This goes a long way to offset the low damage.
I will also add that it was an extremely fun build to test. It also had very rounded saves. The opponents fighting the DD that could cut through the DR were hurt badly by the effective -5 AB that epic dodge provides against them. Making them much less likely to hit.
I think you're miscounting the number of attacks you'd get with a crossbow for that last idea. A character normally only gets 1 attack per round with a crossbow, regardless of how many attacks per round they normally get. Contrary to what the manual says, Rapid Reload only gives you 1 extra attack period, and that's only if you have the BAB for it (which you do). With haste, that gives you 3 attacks. As for your modified tensor's...well, that would depend on how it was implemented. If they made it like divine power, in that your pre-epic BAB goes up to 20 and you get any extra attacks you would deserve from that, then you wouldn't get any extra crossbow attacks, because a BAB 20 character with 4 normal attacks would sill only have 2 attacks with a crossbow with Rapid Reload. If it's some other way where you are just given flat out bonus attacks like haste, well, that would be different. So, at best 5 attacks, and at worst 3. And knowing which of those it is speaks directly to your question of how viable that character is.
Steve
Ah, didn't know it worked that way, thanks for the tip *scratches the build idea 3*
Quote: Posted 06/15/05 22:56:05 (GMT) -- GhostNWN Idea 1: Fighter (or inserts any other class here) / DD / SD Maybe 6 / 24 / 10 for high DR, and focussing on DEX and CON for Epic DR and Epic Dodge. Might be taking more SD and less DD depending on needs
+Should have good AB (depending on base class) +High DR +Hard to hit (especially if someone casts improved invis on you) +High HP +HiPS
-Will likely be doing little damage as DEX based -Questionable if Epic Dodge is worth it for a DD with high DR -Likely using light armor -Not specialized on one stat -Will likely rely on a mage/cleric for buffs (most non-caster builds do though)
Might be a great blocker char that can take a lot of damage and block doorways and fiddle with the minds of his opponents.
Click Here
It was quite good. While it doesnt get the 30/- possible DR it does get close with 24/-. What a purer DD build lacks is magical defenses. SD adds improved evasion, slippery mind and HipS. The SD compliments the DD defenses very well. As for being DEX based , bear in mind that fighter in the build gives you +6 damage. This is equivalent to a STR boost of 12 when compared against a build without fighter levels. This goes a long way to offset the low damage.
I will also add that it was an extremely fun build to test. It also had very rounded saves. The opponents fighting the DD that could cut through the DR were hurt badly by the effective -5 AB that epic dodge provides against them. Making them much less likely to hit.
Syrath
Ahh just what I was looking for, great build you did there syrath. Wondering though, Would it be good to bump the SD level up slightly to get ED earlier? Getting it at 39 for a PvM build seems rather late. _________________ Inactive for a while
Quote: Posted 06/16/05 11:03:50 (GMT) -- GhostNWN
Ahh just what I was looking for, great build you did there syrath. Wondering though, Would it be good to bump the SD level up slightly to get ED earlier? Getting it at 39 for a PvM build seems rather late.
Not really , up till then you can get by with the DR alone. Epic dodge is the icing on the cake in this case. Rather than the cake itself. This isnt primarly a SD but a DD build. It follows similar ideas. It just so happens to also qualify for Epic dodge so why not take it. And a little bit of min maxing (tumble) wouldnt go amiss either.
As a RP build its a little wierd, defensive stance and epic dodge seem to be contradictory feats. Defensive feats is certainly something it doesnt lack though.
Syrath _________________ It's SHADOWDANCER, dammit, shadowdancer!!!
Hm...would it be feasible to drop ImPA for KD? _________________ Inactive for a while
Quote: Posted 06/15/05 22:56:05 (GMT) -- GhostNWN
Idea 2:
Wizard / DD / PM
Likely to be around 4 / 20 /16
+ Epic Spells (warding and mage armor) possible right? + High DR + High HP + High AC + Can minorly buff
- Terrible AB (few attacks) - Short lasting spells - Likely weak against spells
Kind of like a True Dwarven Wall. You can hardly hit it and if you hit it, you'll do almost no damage at all, especially if speccing in CON and taking the Epic DR feats.
I tried this, but not seriously. The thought was to build a build that was immune to critical hits, had good damage reduction, and could cast all the damage shield spells. The problem was the almost complete lack of offense, CHA based paladins would mock this character for his AB, and the low caster level means his spells are ineffective. In the end a wizard/PM (caster) or bard/fighter/PM (melee) with epic warding is better in every respect. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
OK, got another idea
How about a wizard/cleric/bard (or insert monk or rogue here..maybe even assassin or shadowdancer) Or alternatively instead of wizard, sorceror.
How would you build a build like that?
I was thinking that would be quite a powerful character in terms of spells/day and variety of spells, but of course the drawback is in durations and spellpower as well as caster level.
I was considering 23 wizard or sorceror levels, maybe 15 cleric levels and 2 other levels.
What would be a good spread without too much or any xp penalty?
Open to any suggestions _________________ Inactive for a while
To be honest; I'd think of cleric17/wiz21/rog2 instead. All cleric levels before lvl20; start int17; wisdom18. Spend one feat on GreatWis; and one point on wisdom. All other attributes to Int; get at least 10 great int feats, and get some focus in one school if possible [not specialist](else get autostill and use plate for some melee possibility). Epic UMD if possible, this opens you up to using other items from eg druid scrolls/wands for the fun stuff.
Using an Elf or Human will net no xp penalty before last three levels (rog levels at 38+39, xp penalty from lvl38); and you can even avoid that by not leveling up until you gather enough xp for the last three (if that applies).
What benefits: All Cleric spells (major boosts + heal + greater restore ++) All Mage spells; with a very good dc on attack. Spell Penetration will pose a few problems but you have mord's and Epic Spell Penetration (3 feats for ESP) to help. Major Buffs to the point that you can melee as well in a pinch List goes on
Drawbacks: Less power. You'd get only two or so Epic Spells; Spell Resistance will be a problem (can be beaten but still a problem).
Edited By Khandahr on 06/20/05 13:49
Hm... a few questions about that:
Taking rogue is nice, but none of the three classes have any discipline, so the char would be a really easy target for knockdown. any help on that?
Reflex saves are likely low, might need to work on that too.
Does specializing in a spellschool as a wizard also restrict these spells as a cleric? so lets say you take illusion as wizard, would your cleric still be able to cast enchantments? _________________ Inactive for a while
Try Cleric/Sorc/Bard or Pally instead. You only have to increase CHA and WIS and clerics benefit from a high CHA (divine might and shield). You'd get a lot more attribute synergy from this mix of classes. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Try Cleric/Sorc/Bard or Pally instead. You only have to increase CHA and WIS and clerics benefit from a high CHA (divine might and shield). You'd get a lot more attribute synergy from this mix of classes.
Yeah, I was thinking of that or cleric/wiz/monk or rogue or assassin (high buffed AB with death attack or evasion)
For your idea, I'm tempted to go for the bard synergy and not pally because I'd get UMD this way and more class skills.
Reason I am considering the wizard synergy opposed to sorc is because that way I could leave CHA at 8 and take INT up to 20 while if i take sorc, i need 20+ CHA as well as at least 12 or 14 INT for enough skill points.
Also, the problem that remains is what would be a good build setup? i mean class distribution? and how do i get as little xp penalty as possible having 3 base classes in this case and not having to put off the goodies till 37+. _________________ Inactive for a while
) but rather looking for input into which kind of build would be best to pursue: