I am attempting to create a different sort of build for the PW which I play on. This server requires 6 rogue or 4 assassin to take Shadowdancer, which I was aiming to hit as soon as possible. I was considering 20/19/1 cleric/rogue/SD but that is optional. My debate is how to set this up to take full advantage of the classes. I could make it a wisdom focused char with zen archery who sneaks in, gets his shots off, sneaks out and stealths for heals and harms, or I could make it a dex focused build with war / trickery for good rogue boosts outside combat and great ranged effiency. If I took the dex path I know I would aim for improved stealth feats and possibly sneak attacks, or SC5 (although the imp invis from trickery domain does render this somewhat obselete). I'm seeking input from other players for suggestions trying to focus this down into a somewhat more managable build - I know with HIPS and cleric casting power this could potentially be a force to reckoned with, but need the assistance focusing. Anyone care to help me tackle this monster?
Edited By arabidyak on 10/02/05 21:55
If you're planning on using spells for offensive purposes, I'd recommend going high WIS in order to get your DC of your spells as high as you can. The number of CLC levels is of importance if you're taking SR into account as well. If you want to be sure you can't be dispelled,t hen you'll need 26 levels of CLC. Of course, you can still be stripped with a Mord's, but dispels won't work on you.
If you're looking for CLC just for buffing, then you don't really need more than 15 levels (and the WIS to support the spells you want). _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
If you want an offensive casting cleric I'd say go 35 cleric/4 assassin/1 SD. The downside is you'll really be skill-starved. The upside is you'll be able to beat non-monk SR 100% of the time, and with epic focus (evocation) and maxed out wisdom you can have DC 30+ base saves for all your evocation spells.
You can check out my Death from Below nuking cleric build for some ideas _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
On that server. if I'm right and it IS that one (Three Towns) you also get +1DC per 3 epic levels in casting class.. so Cleric 35 would mean +5DC
On that server. if I'm right and it IS that one (Three Towns) you also get +1DC per 3 epic levels in casting class.. so Cleric 35 would mean +5DC
-DaMouse
Heh - thought that might be you. Yeah, 3T. I'm trying to stagger my sneak levels with my cleric levels to insure I have an appropiate hide/ms level. For offense, I was planning to do more harms than offensive casting per se, and use my sneak attacks to rack up the physical damage. With that in mind, do you guys think that a dual wielding finesse build or a ranged would be more appropos - my logic is sneak in, harm or heal the tank, rack up a few sneaks, sneak out, repeat as needed, and use my cleric spells more for party buffing than for all out caster mayhem. Perhaps toss out a coupla maximized BB's here or there. Anyone know what offensive cleric spells I could toss out with a moderate DC and still hope for a fair success rate?
for my SD mage on 3T I did 20 Wiz then 3 Rogue then 1 wiz for epic spell penet then 3 rogue 1 SD.. I get 1 more rogue level at 40 making is 32/7/1 Wiz/Rogue/SD.. it's not toooo bad
-DaMouse
Word of faith (no save), harm (no save), implosion (fort save, +3 DC to save), hammer of the gods (divine damage, no save vs damage, will save vs stunned) - those are all very good offensive cleric spells.
When you get right down to it, epic clerics are arguably better "nukers" than epic arcane casters. They have fewer nukes, but the cleric nukes make up in raw power what they lack in variety. Implosion is better than Wail now, and Harm has always been better than, well, anything that isn't Harm. Word of faith is arguably better than time stop. Almost nothing resists divine damage. Etcetera. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 10/03/05 03:24
While Harm, Hammer of the Gods and Word of Faith don't have saves, they DO have spell resistance (your base DC to penetrate SR increases with casterlevel, add in spell pen) and Harm is also negative energy so if there's another cleric around and they cast negative energy protection... And you need to beat some of the AC of the target to get Harm to hit (IIRC, one of the AC types was dodge). You might also end up a bit feat-starved with that class combo...
Like Cin said, if you really want to cast offensively, upping the Cleric levels to beat SR more reliably and upping WIS to increase spell DC (Clerics get Great WIS as a bonus feat) is an idea (and increase divine power duration for the 4th attack you don't get and other good cleric buffs, eventually non-dispellable) but you'd lose sneak attack damage and skillpoints o_o. Clerics, though, do have some spells to deal with traps n' stuff and can get the Trickery domain. 20 Cleric gives you all the casterlevel-based spell slots etc...
(BTW don't trust my advice too much. I don't have as much experience with this as some of the others )
Edited By Jennalee on 10/03/05 08:19
Ah, the old spell resistance thing.
I used to be really hung up on spell resistance until I realized that the maximum spell resistance any opponent that isn't an epic monk will have is 32. Since the equation is (caster level + 1d20) >= SR, If you have 25 caster levels and epic penetration, or 31 caster levels, you'll beat a non-SR monk's resistance every time.
But on the other hand, the maximum penetration power you can get is 66 (40 caster levels and epic penetration feat). You still can't penetrate a full out SR monk with that, and since monk SR is, apparently, unaffected by SR-lowering spells like disjunction or spell breach... there's no advantage to being an arcane caster over a divine caster for beating SR if you have 31 penetration levels already.
That leaves us back where we started - looking at the spells themselves. The divine caster hasn't got as many different offensive spells, but their spells are basically better. Sure, someone might use defense spells specifically to counter them but they can do that to arcane casters too.
Edit - and the divine caster, especially the cleric, is far better suited to fighting an SR monk than an arcane caster is. Why? Because SR monks tend to be relatively weak in melee for a melee character (having spent 8 to 10 feats on improved SR)... whereas clerics can buff themselves from melee zero to melee hero even if they haven't got any melee feats and their base strength is 6. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 10/03/05 17:09
Quote: Posted 10/03/05 17:07:01 (GMT) -- Xylophone Edit - and the divine caster, especially the cleric, is far better suited to fighting an SR monk than an arcane caster is. Why? Because SR monks tend to be relatively weak in melee for a melee character (having spent 8 to 10 feats on improved SR)... whereas clerics can buff themselves from melee zero to melee hero even if they haven't got any melee feats and their base strength is 6.
Now that I have to disagree with. A high level wizard with his damage shields up will probably do a lot more damage faster than a cleric if the monk tries to melee him (only death armor is subject to spell resistance), and epic warding/premonition will prevent the monk from doing much damage anyway. The cleric's extra melee prowess would only matter if the wizard was also relying on melee to damage the monk.
And of course, high level clerics and druids can also cast spell resistance and raise their SR up above 32 as well, and if they're pure enough, the spell can't be dispelled. So there are at least a few other characters that can beat the 32 limit on items.
You'd have to be a fool to kill yourself on a mage's damage shield, though. The smart monk would just stop attacking.
At that point the worst thing the arcane caster could probably do to them unless they have greater ruin (or the PRC is involved), is summon something (*snicker*) or use tenser's transformation (*double snicker*).
The cleric however could buff up and start actively beating them in melee. At that point the 'pure SR' monk's only defense is to run away.
And while nobody can catch a level 40 monk running away, the point of the above is to point out that the cleric can make them run away, the arcane caster can only make them stop attacking. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
I used to be really hung up on spell resistance until I realized that the maximum spell resistance any opponent that isn't an epic monk will have is 32. Since the equation is (caster level + 1d20) >= SR, If you have 25 caster levels and epic penetration, or 31 caster levels, you'll beat a non-SR monk's resistance every time.
Maybe the default monsters only get SR 32 max but what about custom critters? (and the other already mentioned stuff). Still, you'd probably want Cleric 26 anyway for 2 Great WIS and non-dispellable, longer-lasting buffs.
IMO, go WIS based and take ESF in Hide and MS xD
Edited By Jennalee on 10/04/05 08:27
The toolset only goes up to 32 SR. That's why I say 32 SR is the maximum you'll ever encounter except in PvP against a monk. Though I guess you could make an SR monk creature.
Some PWs may have changed that limitation but I've never heard of it before.
In any event I think there's more to gain by being able to beat the max SR most things can ever have, and giving up on trying to beat an amount of SR you can't beat no matter what (SR monks), instead of maxing your caster levels and taking epic penetration when it's overkill on most of what you'll fight and still not enough kill to get through an SR monk's protection.
Freeing up 8 levels and 3 feats, or 15 levels and no feats, is a pretty good benefit. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
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