Race: Elf Class Levels: 10 fighter/25 weapon master/5 harper scout
Notes: I built this build based on my interpretation of the Roman Legionaries called the Hastati so I made him using a short sword. For all others, choose the Rapier (Epic rapier crits would be 100+). I chose only knock down, cause ab is high enough to where I felt improved knockdown wasn’t needed, and so far I‘ve been right. Alter build to your liking if you want other feats, obviously. I’m listing only the feats cause level progression is self explanatory:
Pre-Epic (Pre 20th level)-feats appear in order on character sheet
1. Alertness 2. Blind fight 3. Dodge 4. Expertise 5. Improved critical Short Sword 6. Iron Will 7. Knockdown 8. Mobility 9. Skill Focus Discipline 10. Spring Attack 11. Weapon Finesse 12. Weapon Focus Short Sword 13. Whirlwind Attack
Epic feats (Post 20th Lvl)
For levels 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, and 39 choose Epic skill focus discipline and 6 great dexes.
Skill pts place in Weapon master requirements and Harper scout requirements, max spot (or listen), disc, and tumble up to 40, i put remainder in heal.
Melee Stats: AC: 79+1 dodge=80 Ab: 67 With Expertise: ac is 85 Ab is 62 Hp: around 650
Other stats with gear: Fort = 45 Reflex = 49 Will = 30 Spot = 79 Disci = 70
Put remainder of skill pts in heal
ok for the life of me i dont remember the exact leveling order, but the pvp world i play on max for weps is +4 enhancement and +6 for ac items and +8 for str/dex ect ect.
Race: Elf Class Levels: 10 fighter/25 weapon master/5 harper scout
Notes: I built this build based on my interpretation of the Roman Legionaries called the Hastati so I made him using a short sword. For all others, choose the Rapier (Epic rapier crits would be 100+). I chose only knock down, cause ab is high enough to where I felt improved knockdown wasn’t needed, and so far I‘ve been right.
I think you've the wrong idea on Improved KD. IKD doesn't give you better AB. Both KD and IKD are at a -4 penalty to hit. What IKD does is treat your character as if he's a size category larger (and allows him to KD creatures up to two size categories larger than him, not just one sixe larger). This means your opponent's Discipline check will be at a -4 penalty if your opponent's medium sized, -8 penalty if your opponent's small sized, and no penalty if your opponent's large sized.
If you've the feat to spare, IKD is worth the investment. However, in a PvP environment, it's probably wiser to go for Called Shot over IKD.
Just out of curiosity: why are you going high DEX if you aren't aiming for the Self Conceal feats, aren't dual-wielding, and don't have Uncanny Dodge? If you're caught flat-footed, you'll be in a world of hurt.
A STR-based FTR 10/Rogue 2/WM 28 build should get good AB and still have decent AC I'd think. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Cinnabar Din,bud its hard to explain you would almost have to see the pvp world and try out your character,like theres one guy whos 16 pal and 24 Cot with smite he does like 300+ damage with a schim.but like as far as dex it really does help,but i could possible make it a str with schim but not sure.
Cinnabar Din,bud its hard to explain you would almost have to see the pvp world and try out your character,like theres one guy whos 16 pal and 24 Cot with smite he does like 300+ damage with a schim.but like as far as dex it really does help,but i could possible make it a str with schim but not sure.
No worries. I was only curious, as I don't do PvP. You know the world better than I, so don't take my question as criticism. I was just wondering.
What kind of AC do you need there, and do you need WM in your build or would you go for something else? _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Well,no i dont "need" weapon master but since weapons only get a measly +4 enhancment it does help to have it and that build is extremely effective,also all builds start out at lvl 28
Is this char for 1 on 1 PvP? If not, I can't understand why you do dex-based if you're not getting Uncanny dodge. If you fight monsters, at least two, and both have sneak attacks, they'll shred you to pieces. In a PvP where you are not 1 on 1 as is often the case on my PW, you'll have trouble if two sneak capable pc's attack you. Remember that when someone sneak attack you, you COUNT as being flat-footed. That means you don't get your dex or your dodge bonus to AC.With a DEX build that quickly grows disastrous. I never do a dex build unless I at least get uncanny dodge. On my PW there's a lots of dex-builds, but all they ever do PvP is 1 on 1, mostly duels.
Is this char for 1 on 1 PvP? If not, I can't understand why you do dex-based if you're not getting Uncanny dodge. If you fight monsters, at least two, and both have sneak attacks, they'll shred you to pieces. In a PvP where you are not 1 on 1 as is often the case on my PW, you'll have trouble if two sneak capable pc's attack you. Remember that when someone sneak attack you, you COUNT as being flat-footed. That means you don't get your dex or your dodge bonus to AC.With a DEX build that quickly grows disastrous. I never do a dex build unless I at least get uncanny dodge. On my PW there's a lots of dex-builds, but all they ever do PvP is 1 on 1, mostly duels.
How certain are you of this Grimnir? My understanding is you're not flat-footed when you're in active combat (whether you're being flanked or not). You shouldn't lose your DEX or Dodge AC if you're engaged with more than one opponent, as long as you're fighting with one of them. Anyone flanking you will get sneak attacks and a +2 AB modifier (the flanking bonus to hit). To my knowledge, however, you dont lose your DEX or Dodge AC when you're flanked.
Situations that make you flat-footed:
Performing a non-combat task (drinking potions, using items, activating certain feats, et.)
In ready mode (not actually engaged in combat with anyone)
Moving outside the combat radius. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
What PW World do you play on?
I beleive if the sneakign opponent is invisible or in stealth mode adn you DON'T see them they they will catch you flatfooted. So if you want to go with a build like that you need high listen or spot and or True Seeing.
First of all that's Mason's Build on the BoW BCBC VIII thread, that won runner up, also exactly the same wording, so you might want to point that out.
Levelign order is retty self explanatory:
1-6 fighter 7-16 WM 17-20 fighter
then oin epic lvls take all WM and you can put the HS lvls whereever you want as logn as you eitehr end on one, or have one as the penultimate lvl to max Spot or listen. and get tumble to 40 if you hadn't already
If you are playign on BoW which it seems you are then you need: Blind Fight, Skill Focus Disc, Epic Skill Focus Disc. Also you can't take IKD because there aren't enough feats if yu take the compulurary ones. For WM take those eats in the first 6 lvls. Then for the 2 or so WM feats take Blidn Fight SF: Disc. For the Fighte feats take Allertness and Iron Will (For Harper Scout) and KD.
Epic feats are pretty self explanatory, reg feats are all great dex except one epic skill fucs Disc. HS are great dex both of them, and epic wm bonus are EWF, Armour Skin, Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness 1 and epic toughness 2. _________________ ~I am the wisest man on earth because I know one thing, and that is I know nothing.~ -Cairne
Quote: Posted 10/17/05 19:02:54 (GMT) -- Almalith
I beleive if the sneakign opponent is invisible or in stealth mode adn you DON'T see them they they will catch you flatfooted.
Yes, because then you fall under the 'ready mode' category, as you're not engaged in combat. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Quote: Posted 10/17/05 16:36:34 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
How certain are you of this Grimnir? My understanding is you're not flat-footed when you're in active combat (whether you're being flanked or not). You shouldn't lose your DEX or Dodge AC if you're engaged with more than one opponent, as long as you're fighting with one of them. Anyone flanking you will get sneak attacks and a +2 AB modifier (the flanking bonus to hit). To my knowledge, however, you dont lose your DEX or Dodge AC when you're flanked.
Situations that make you flat-footed:
Performing a non-combat task (drinking potions, using items, activating certain feats, et.)
In ready mode (not actually engaged in combat with anyone)
Moving outside the combat radius.
You are right you are not flat-footed, I didn't say you were. I said that when someone sneak attacks you, you COUNT as being flat-footed. Something to do with game-mechanics, I think. Just test it out, if you want. I do PvP quite a lot, have you never noticed how easily someone hits a dex build without uncanny dodge? I have a monk character which i played quite a lot, and facing a nasty group of sneak attacking goblins, they hit me even though they were way off my main AC. I'm 100% sure about this.
You are right you are not flat-footed, I didn't say you were. I said that when someone sneak attacks you, you COUNT as being flat-footed.
True enough, but whether you're flat-footed or count as flat-footed, the result is the same. I didn't think the game engine did that.
Quote: Something to do with game-mechanics, I think. Just test it out, if you want. I do PvP quite a lot, have you never noticed how easily someone hits a dex build without uncanny dodge?
No, I've never noticed (I don't do PvP). I'll take your word on it. I just wanted to check to make sure you had encountered it in-game. This is something that could quite reasonably be considered a bug. You should not be flat-footed (or even count as such) just because you're flanked.
Quote: I have a monk character which i played quite a lot, and facing a nasty group of sneak attacking goblins, they hit me even though they were way off my main AC. I'm 100% sure about this.
Perhaps I'll try it out in a leveller with combat debugging to see what's reported. Thanks for bringing that to light Grimnir. That just reinforces the need to have Uncanny Dodge in a DEX build. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
I think i have a screenshot showing it somewhere, but I do believe there is no way to post that here? If you are flanked, only the guys who are able to sneak attack you, "catch" you flat-footed.
It was hard to test out, I had two friends of mine take two chars I had made, one sneak capable, one not. They had the same AB, both could hit me only on a 20. But when I shifted target, so one could sneak attack, his sneak attacks hit me much more often, and AC's far lower than he should. I have no concrete number, but I'm pretty sure I somehow was counted for flat-footed when he sneak attacked me. When you are sneak immune(crit immune item in this case) his attacks ceased to connect as often even though he still flanked me.. Just test it and you'll see. Post your results when you do.
Those happenings with my monk was what made me test this.
Grimnir, when I get a chance, I'll try out smoe testing. I'll definitely let you know, either here or in a PM. Not sure when I'll get to it, but I'll try to do it soonest. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Almalith your guess is correct, so your sayin i should go Str and possibly half orc for uncanny or???
InCruentus: apologies for hijacking your thread, but I'll post the results of my testing here for Grimnir. I does have relevance to your thread though, as it may make a difference on whether you choose a DEX build or not.
Grimnir: here's the results of my testing. I built a FTR 32/Bard 3/HS 5. Dwarf, DEX-based. The end stats were:
STR 14 DEX 34 CON 18 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 6
I tested him in a leveller (Novie to Epic Character Builder) with no haks, just the basic content. I decked him out with Robes of the Darkmoon (Haste for +4 Dodge AC), Bracers of DEX +2 and Belt of Agility +10, Cloak of Protection +7 and Ammy of Natural Armor +7.
I took him into the arena vs 2 FTRs and a Rogue (all 40th level pure builds). I then enabled combat debugging, targetted one of the FTRs so the other FTR and Rogue were flanking, and watched the results.
The Rogue landed sneak after sneak (drained my STR pretty quick with Crippling Strike, btw). Anyhow, the combat debugging showed I did not lose my DEX or Dodge AC to the sneak-attacker. Here's what the log showed as far as my AC with regards to the Rogue's attacks (the parts in brackets are my comments):
AC 10 (base) +2 Natural (Armor Skin) + 8 Tumble (Tumble ranks of 40) + 18 (DEX modifier) + 4 Dodge (Haste) + 7 Effect AC Natural Bonus (Ammy) +7 Effect AC Deflection Bonus (Cloak).
That totals 56 AC.
The Rogue did receive a +2 flanking bonus to his attack as he should have.
The 2nd FTR also received a +2 flanking bonus and my AC was reported as exactly the same (56) vs him as well.
Conclusion: you do not lose your DEX-based or Dodge AC when flanked by either a regular FTR type or a sneak attacker. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Hm, very strange. My monk got whipped bad until I releveled and took rogue to get uncanny. AC remained the same.
You sure the combat debugger works correctly? Have you checked the actual roll they need to hit you. I found my screenie. It shows the rogues hit me AC 34, while they should need to hit 40. (or something like that.) No one else could do that. My friend needed 20 to hit me face on, and 11 or so to hit me while he could connect sneak attacks, until I put on immune to crit item, then everything was right.
Very strange. I will need to do a retesting. *shakes head* Thanks for doing this test though.Perhaps time to rebuild my monk again.
No No please be my guest hi jack all you want and yes i did find this build in BCBC, but im looking to make it better cause i know it can be, ive tried a few and to no avail was getting the results i wanted.
In a pvp world, you need all the dex u can get considering the fact that most people tend to build tanks. I dunno much about self concealment, except for the fact that it provides dmg reduct, and it seams like a good feat to invest in. What pvp servers do u play at? if you play at summits I would to go head to head against you. Overall I think it is a great build in the sense that the high dex will keep you alive.
Ltr
CunningRouge that build is diffrent havent found a good leveling order for it and no i play on BoW only one i know of.
Is this char for 1 on 1 PvP? If not, I can't understand why you do dex-based if you're not getting Uncanny dodge. If you fight monsters, at least two, and both have sneak attacks, they'll shred you to pieces.