Ok what im looking for is a DWD that doesnt use powerattack cleave greatcleave for overwelming crit and i dont need Dev crit. Im looking for him to have atlest 33+dmg reduct and a base ab with Dwarven Waraxe of 46-48 if there is one. See what u can do =D
Quote: Posted 10/20/05 21:47:20 (GMT) -- g_snuggs
Ok what im looking for is a DWD that doesnt use powerattack cleave greatcleave for overwelming crit and i dont need Dev crit. Im looking for him to have atlest 33+dmg reduct and a base ab with Dwarven Waraxe of 46-48 if there is one. See what u can do =D
The highest DR possible is 30/- and that's with 30 levels of DwD. You're going to have to invest at least 4 ability increases or GRT attribute feats to CON (unless you start with 19 or 20 CON, but that would gimp your other stats). That's going to leave you with lower STR and thus lower AB.
30/- DR with a natural 46-48 AB? Not possible.
You could try FTR 8/CoT 2/DwD 30 (similar to the Dwarven Wall build) and start with these stats:
STR 16 DEX 13 CON 19 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 6
Put 2 ability increases into CON and the rest into STR. In epic, take 6 GRT STR feats, leaving one for EWF. You'll have 5 DwD bonus feats. Take the 3 DR feats and Epic Prowess. The fifth is your choice (Armor Skin perhaps).
You'd end with 30/- DR and an unbuffed AB of +44. That's about as good as you can do, as far as I can figure out. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
ok what is highest DR u can get with a Base AB with a unmodded rapier at 48? be
DwDs don't get high AB. If you want high AB in melee, you usually go high WM levels but if you do that, you'll have little DR. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Besides, with all the feat requirements for WM, you might end up feat starved.
What it boils down to is, do you want high high base AB? Or high DR? Take your pick. You can't have both. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Quote: Posted 10/20/05 22:44:55 (GMT) -- g_snuggs
ok what is highest DR u can get with a Base AB with a unmodded rapier at 48? be
Here's the deal: the highest BAB you can have by level 40 is 30. Add in +4 for Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, and Epic Prowess. That's a total of +34. That's the absolute highest you can get from BAB and feats. In order to get more you have to get a high modifier in your 'to hit' ability (be it DEX or STR) and/or take WM levels.
WM gets +1 AB with the weapon of choice at WM levels 5, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, and 28.
Let's look at a STR-based build: You'd need a STR of 38 to get an AB of 48 (30 BAB + 4 feats + 14 STR modifier = +48 AB). Since you can't get 38 STR without taking RDD, you'll have to go with WM levels.
Realistically, you'll probably end with around 30 STR. This means an AB of: 30 (BAB) + 4 (feats) + 10 (STR) = +44 AB. So, you want 4 more AB. That means 19 levels of WM. Now, to muddy the waters, you need to get your DR in as well. This means at least 21 CON, which means you're going to have to spend ability increases and/or feats to get it that high. Every increase or feat you use to raise CON is going to take away from your STR, thus lowering your AB. Also, every WM level you take is one less DwD level, which lowers your DR.
I think the best you can do is probably what I laid out in my previous post. You could go for the +48 AB, but I think the best you'll be able to do with DR is probably 12 or 15. But, just try putting a few builds together with different levels of DwD and WM and see what you come up with. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
You might like to try this build. I modded Talamier's Dwarven Biting Wall for a bit more playability. You aren't going to get much better I'm afraid. Really, you should use pulse cap's search engine before posting.
If you don't like the Waraxe, a warhammer is also a good choice. It will save a feat (no more exotic proficiency) you can use for something else...
21: Dwarven Defender(4): Epic Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe 22: Dwarven Defender(5) 23: Fighter(11) 24: Fighter(12): CON+1, Epic Damage Reduction I, Epic Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe, (CON=22) 25: Fighter(13) 26: Fighter(14): Epic Damage Reduction II 27: Dwarven Defender(6): Epic Damage Reduction III 28: Dwarven Defender(7): STR+1, (STR=19) 29: Dwarven Defender(8) 30: Dwarven Defender(9): Great Strength I, (STR=20) 31: Dwarven Defender(10) 32: Dwarven Defender(11): STR+1, (STR=21) 33: Dwarven Defender(12): Great Strength II, (STR=22) 34: Dwarven Defender(13) 35: Dwarven Defender(14): Epic Prowess 36: Dwarven Defender(15): STR+1, Great Strength III, (STR=24) 37: Dwarven Defender(16) 38: Dwarven Defender(17) 39: Dwarven Defender(18): Great Strength IV, Armor Skin, (STR=25) 40: Dwarven Defender(19): STR+1, (STR=26)
Max HP: 718 BAB: 30 AB (mundane Dwarven Waraxe): +43/38/33/28 AC (naked/full plate + tower shield): 17/28
Saves: Fort: 28 Ref: 20 Will: 17
Epic Damage Reduction III: 9/-20 (?) DD DR: 12/- <-- not sure, ask Cin Din
NOTE: The fort and will saves can be improved by one leaving ref the same if you delay taking the 7th WM level until epic and taking 4 DD pre-epic. While this may reduce playability, if you're going to play this to level 40 you might want to do this.
Skills (129 skillpoints): Discipline: 43(51) Tumble: 20(21) Heal: 38(37) Intimidate: 4 <-- must take to qualify for WM
21: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 22: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 23: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 24: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 25: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 26: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 27: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 28: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 29: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 30: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 31: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 32: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 33: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 34: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 35: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 36: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 37: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), 38: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 39: Discipline(1), Heal(2), 40: Discipline(1), Heal(2), _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
*Sigh* I wish I'd remembered your post Cin, before I posted this. Talamier's build gets 21 DR and with the 4 more Great STR, gets 43 AB with the WM bonuses of AB and Crit. multiplier and threat range. DR is less than Cin Din's posted suggestion but WM bonuses add a lot more to offense. Take the warhammer and take Imp. Expertise maybe if you wanna go with it...
*not happy with having to do final exams* _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
I enjoy playing dwarven cleric/DDs. The cleric lvls helps your AB problems the DD has, or might have. You can get 21 to 24 DR and still maintain quite good AB. While buffed at least. Cleric/CoT/DD. Go Cleric10/DD10 pre-epic. Take some CoT lvls in the epic to get your Wis high enough for the spells you need. Ending cleric anywhere from 12-15. Cleric 12/CoT6/DD22 is a combo I enjoy. The DD levels alone give you 15 DR, and CON, if you go that path, might give you 9 mor, for max 24. The cleric gives you by far the best AB for a 24 DR build. I know you asked for natural AB tho. But this is a way to get both that natural AB won't give you.
My experience playing DDs tell me that 15 DR is about the breaking point, my CLC/CoT/DD has only 15, a 32 STR for very nice buffed AB. 15 DR is enough to turn battles your way. A good AB, 15 DR and Heal spell availible makes it a hard to kill opponent. Remember that he is sneak immune to. Well, not completely. One thing that really bugs my arse off tho is that Def Stance doesn't work when you cast, but expertise do!
Remember that he is sneak immune to. Well, not completely. One thing that really bugs my arse off tho is that Def Stance doesn't work when you cast, but expertise do!
Why sneak immune? At most you don't lose your DEX bonuc to AC if flat footed but that doesn't make you immune to sneak attacks
Remember that he is sneak immune to. Well, not completely. One thing that really bugs my arse off tho is that Def Stance doesn't work when you cast, but expertise do!
Why sneak immune? At most you don't lose your DEX bonuc to AC if flat footed but that doesn't make you immune to sneak attacks
Can't be flanked, so no sneak attacks from being flanked would be what I'd assume he means. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Quote: Posted 10/23/05 17:04:55 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Remember that he is sneak immune to. Well, not completely. One thing that really bugs my arse off tho is that Def Stance doesn't work when you cast, but expertise do!
Why sneak immune? At most you don't lose your DEX bonuc to AC if flat footed but that doesn't make you immune to sneak attacks
Can't be flanked, so no sneak attacks from being flanked would be what I'd assume he means.
Right, that's true...you are left with stealth (or darknesses) and IKD to generate sneaks then
I think its tough to KD a good defender. But as for sneak immunity, its in the DDs defenses. As long as you have a target to strike, he will not receive sneak attacks, is what I think. but you may be right, its possibly only defending against flank sneaking.
I think its tough to KD a good defender. But as for sneak immunity, its in the DDs defenses. As long as you have a target to strike, he will not receive sneak attacks, is what I think. but you may be right, its possibly only defending against flank sneaking.
I don't find it documented anywhere that the DwD becomes immune to sneak attacks. All I can find is at level 6, he can no longer be flanked. It's a subtle, but important, distinction.
As for KDing DwDs, it's probably easier to KD them than many other FTR-type builds. Most DwDs go for high CON and the DR feats, so that means lower STR, which means a lower Discipline skill check (even taking the Stance bonuses into account). _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
I agree with Cinnabar Din, knocking down a DD is not impossible.True, IMO it should be nearly so...what's that DS for otherwise, aren't you supposed to keep your ground? What kind of "wall" can you be if you easily get toppled over? I would choose to use darkness+ultravision though to generate sneaks against someone difficult to KD and immune to flanking. _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
You are right about flanking rule. As for KD, Discipline maxed and STR build will make it somewhat resistant. When 3.5 is upon us, Dwarves will enjoy +4 to resist KD to.
You are right about flanking rule. As for KD, Discipline maxed and STR build will make it somewhat resistant. When 3.5 is upon us, Dwarves will enjoy +4 to resist KD to.
That's great news. IMHO a DwD should be very difficult to KD...maybe a further resist bonus to KD for the DwD would make things right. I guess it's also something easy enough to implement for module builders.