Hello there. I was thinking about building a cleric, but then I remembered; "Hey, I have never built one! And besides, I am not very good at building characters anyway!". So I turned to you guys... I have no spesific classes except cleric that I need in this build so you can have some artistic freedom. But to meet the criteria will not be easy. Here's what I would want to see in the character:

* AB 46 (Unbuffed)
* AC 35 (Unbuffed)
* Level 9. Cleric spells
* Uncanny dodge
* (If possible) Epic Dodge
* (If possible) At least 7. Levels of Weapon-Master

These criteria is probably way too high, but I'll try to see if such a god-like character exists anyhow.

Not sure if I explained how the character is going to be... I want him/her to be a melee character, dex based, wielding robe, mace and shield. I want him to have the good unbuffed ab because he will run out of buffs after some time, and he'll need to be fighting without them.

Thanks. Some clues to you. For epic dodge, you need 13 rogue or 10 SD. For AB 46 unbuffed, with a max 27 BAB, and assuming 34 DEX you need WM lvl 13 if you are halfling, 16 if you are elf. That leaves 11, 14 or 17 for cleric. Many of your feats will be used to get WM (AND SD), and for epic feats you will have 1 or two extra from WM. EWF and EP to raise AB to your needs, 1 of the 7 everyone gets goes to epic dodge, 4 or 5 to great dex, perhaps 1 more to armor skin. It should be doable. I think if you play Halfling or elf you need at least 15 lvls to get enough feats for WM. At least 8 lvls of WM is needed pre epic to keep BAB at 27. f.ex Cleric8/Rogue4/WM8. But thats only doable if you are human. That means two more of your epic feats will go to great dex.

Your starting stats would become like this, if you want most clerical goodness.

STR 8
DEX 19
CON 6
INT 13
WIS 16
CHA 8

And go Halfling for 1 more AB, AC and no xp penalty compared to elf.

I haven't done your AC yet. But AB should be met by above suggestions, however messy.

AC: base 10 + 1 race + 2 armor skin + 8 tumble + 12 DEX.
That turns out 33. Two off. Not bad.

AB: 26 base + 1 race + 12 dex + 4 feats + 3 (16WM)=46.

This would be a cleric 11/Rogue13/WM16 build.
Don't think its doable without human if you want SD. The requirements for SD isn't doable by the time you are 11 cleric, and neither is WM. You'll miss by 1 lvl even if you are human I think, and then you need even another AB somewhere. Assuming you spend more on great dex two, or you'll be two short.

By above suggestions you get your AB, epic dodge and uncanny dodge, lacks some AC, and need buffs for damage if you can't sneak. Your buffs won't be super either, but you get lvl 6 spells.

Good luck. It's doable. Don't get dispelled without girdle of strength though, since you will be crawling around then encumbered like h***.

As for hp's, don't count on them to save you.
But it gets you close. Someone else might do this better.

edit: Ability scores were wrong. You might want to give up lvl 6 spells for more CON. Not sure its smart tho. Early levels you will have 6 hp pr level! You might wanna start with 18 dex instead of lowering WIS and put 1 point in INT and 2 to CON.

Edited By Grimnir77 on 10/22/05 06:03

This build actually seems very much like the one I wanted... It lack some levels in cleric, and thats a shame, but I really didn't believe you would be able to fit epic dodge and uncanny dodge in there. I'll make this on my main server. Thanks! Actually, starting stats are still wrong for a halfling, even tho I had edited them once. Halflings have penalty to STR, not CON. 1 more hp pr lvl, but your STR will be like 6. So here is the corrections>
STR 6
CON 8 I tried to make this character, but as I progressed through levels, I encountered some problems. When I chose the halfling, everything seemed to match, except the fact that I didn't get enough feats to become wm. I figured that an elf would have the same problem... So I tried to make a human, but the human would have to sacrifice even more ability points and feats to get the ab and ac... so I am starting to think this is impossible.
Quote: Posted 10/23/05 15:32:04 (GMT) -- Celestial Defender

I tried to make this character, but as I progressed through levels, I encountered some problems. When I chose the halfling, everything seemed to match, except the fact that I didn't get enough feats to become wm. I figured that an elf would have the same problem... So I tried to make a human, but the human would have to sacrifice even more ability points and feats to get the ab and ac... so I am starting to think this is impossible.

How are you trying to level the character? You get 7 pre-epic feats and you need 6 for WM prereqs:

Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Focus
Expertise
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

That leaves you 1 extra feat pre-epic. There shouldn't be a problem, but it means the earliest you could possibly take WM levels would be character level 16. Are you remembering to put at least 4 ranks into Intimidate as well (that's a skill prereq for WM)?

*edit* I actually don't think it's possible to get all you want in the build. To get level 9 CLC spells means 17 levels of CLC and 19 WIS. That's 3 ability boosts to WIS that you must take from DEX. That means the highest possible DEX you can end with is (assuming you start with 19 DEX) 32. Now, with 17 CLC levels, and needing 13 Rogue for Epic Dodge, you're left with only 10 levels for WM. 10 levels gets you nothing with respect to AB that 5 doesn't, so you'd be better served stopping at 5 levels (or possibly 7 to improve your crit multiplier).

Hmmm, perhaps CLC 17/WM 7/Rogue 16? That way you can take Epic Dodge as a Rogue bonus feat. I'll think on this and get back to you.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...

Edited By Cinnabar Din on 10/23/05 16:17

Okay, I don't think what you want is possible at all. Here's one quick build:

CLC 18/WM 7/Rogue 15

Halfling

STR 6
DEX 19
CON 8
INT 13
WIS 16
CHA 8

1 )Rogue1: Dodge
2 )Rogue2
3 )Rogue3: Weapon Focus
4 )CLC1: DEX (20)
5 )CLC2
6 )CLC3: Mobility
7 )Rogue4
8 )CLC4: DEX (21)
9 )CLC5: Spring Attack
10)CLC6
11)CLC7
12)Rogue5: Expertise/ DEX (22)
13)CLC8
14)Rogue6
15)Rogue7: Whirlwind Attack
16)WM1: DEX (23)
17)Rogue8
18)WM2: Weapon Finesse
19)WM3
20)WM4: DEX (24)

21)WM5: EWF
22)Rogue9
23)Rogue10: Imp Evasion
24)Rogue11: Epic Prowess/ DEX (25)
25)Rogue12
26)CLC9
27)Rogue13: Def Roll/ Epic Dodge
28)CLC10: WIS (17)
29)CLC11
30)CLC12: GRT DEX I (26)
31)CLC13
32)Rogue14: WIS (18)
33)CLC14: GRT WIS I (19)
34)CLC15
35)CLC16
36)CLC17: GRT DEX II (27)/ DEX (28)
37)Rogue15
38)CLC18
39)WM6: GRT DEX III (29)
40)WM7: DEX (30)

AB: +42

AC: 29

As you can see, your AB and AC fall short of your desires. You get everything else you wanted though.

Another way you can go would be CLC 17/WM 13/SD 10. This would net you +43 AB and 31 AC unbuffed. However, you'd have to take your 10th SD level at level 37, 38, or 39 to top up Tumble. This would delay Epic Dodge to level 39 as well.

Pre-epic, you'd go with CLC 16/WM 4. In epic you'd have 1 level of CLC to take to get 9th level spells, all 10 SD and 9 more WM. One problem with this build is the huge expense in skill points, as you must cross-class Intimidate for the WM prereqs as well as Tumble (5 ranks), Move Silently (8 ranks), and Hide (10 ranks) for the SD prereqs.

A big problem with both builds is you don't get your Weapon Finesse feat until level 18. That's a long time to go with STR determining your AB.

Anyhow, that's the best I can do right now.
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream... I mentioned that he needed 15 lvls before he could become WM. If he does my suggestion, AC will be two off, and he will get only lvl 6 cleric spells but the rest is there. I think more cleric is better, but i just tried to get him what he wanted.
Quote: Posted 10/23/05 22:03:20 (GMT) -- Grimnir77

I mentioned that he needed 15 lvls before he could become WM. If he does my suggestion, AC will be two off, and he will get only lvl 6 cleric spells but the rest is there. I think more cleric is better, but i just tried to get him what he wanted.

No argument here, Grim. I was just showing a build with level 9 spells, as he said the only 'must have' was CLC, then listed level 9 spells as one of the top 3 priorities. I just figured I'd demonstrate that one can achieve the level 9 spells or the AB, but not both (if you want Epic Dodge as well).
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Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream... I just wanted to point out something before people go trying out dex-based cleric/wms:

Quote: Posted 10/23/05 17:28:53 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Okay, I don't think what you want is possible at all. Here's one quick build:

CLC 18/WM 7/Rogue 15

Halfling

STR 6
DEX 19
CON 8
INT 13
WIS 16
CHA 8

1 )Rogue1: Dodge
2 )Rogue2
3 )Rogue3: Weapon Focus
4 )CLC1: DEX (20)
5 )CLC2
6 )CLC3: Mobility
7 )Rogue4
8 )CLC4: DEX (21)
9 )CLC5: Spring Attack
10)CLC6
11)CLC7
12)Rogue5: Expertise/ DEX (22)
13)CLC8
14)Rogue6
15)Rogue7: Whirlwind Attack
16)WM1: DEX (23)
17)Rogue8
18)WM2: Weapon Finesse
19)WM3
20)WM4: DEX (24)


The greatest difficulty to a build like this is that you SUCK for the first half of your career. (FOR the RECORD: i am NOT pointing out a flaw in cinns build: far from it! He has made CLEAR that for the first 18 lvs your ab will be somewhere near the bottom reaches of a toilet. At 18 it will be fine just live to that time, thats the trick with str =6 (-2 penalty) ). What I am saying is that to attempt a build like this, and make it useable from lv 1 you need to gain wpn finesse from an item.

Also, for the record, cleric/wms are extremely enjoyable to play (with the wpn finesse feat) from lv 1. Mine is currently lv 16 (just got wm1 woot). From a chat with a friend online, then several days of lookin at it, it is very doable to have a USEABLE cleric/wm dex based "tank" with epic dodge. Since i am not at my home pc i cannot say what the ab/ac of my build will be (nekkid). I do know it is NOT 35ac naked and im pretty sure (checkin the numbers quoted above, the ab will not be near 46 mundane). BUT he is a cleric! I suggest takin cinns suggestion and run with it. While you are doin it, learn about the cleric. Yes, buffs wear off, but after HOW long? You cant know that until you use them (well you can, but i mean, how many fights can you do with one set of buffs, etc. get gut feels for it). HAvin 18 cleric lvs means you get a nice time, and if you arnt happy with that time, take extend spell (always necessary, imho if you have <20 cleric lvls). Learn about div favor and powr. These are your friends. Dont be scared of bein buffless, cuz if you are payin attention, you should know when to rest. Rest is your friend! Clerics are not melee machines. We need rest. It is because of our spells that we can not worry so much about how high our nekid ab is and still get by.

Ill look at the numbers for my dex cleric and post the build tomorrow night, if you lik

Peace Very good postings. It will not be so tough to lvl if you are in party. Use ranged weapons and summons even, except summons will not be particularly tough while multi-classed. In close combat you are a goner! No kidding. Just added my char to the epic builders forum.

Here: Click Here

peace
Quote: Posted 10/23/05 16:10:01 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din

Quote: Posted 10/23/05 15:32:04 (GMT) -- Celestial Defender

I tried to make this character, but as I progressed through levels, I encountered some problems. When I chose the halfling, everything seemed to match, except the fact that I didn't get enough feats to become wm. I figured that an elf would have the same problem... So I tried to make a human, but the human would have to sacrifice even more ability points and feats to get the ab and ac... so I am starting to think this is impossible.

How are you trying to level the character? You get 7 pre-epic feats and you need 6 for WM prereqs:

Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Focus
Expertise
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

That leaves you 1 extra feat pre-epic. There shouldn't be a problem, but it means the earliest you could possibly take WM levels would be character level 16. Are you remembering to put at least 4 ranks into Intimidate as well (that's a skill prereq for WM)?

*edit* I actually don't think it's possible to get all you want in the build. To get level 9 CLC spells means 17 levels of CLC and 19 WIS. That's 3 ability boosts to WIS that you must take from DEX. That means the highest possible DEX you can end with is (assuming you start with 19 DEX) 32. Now, with 17 CLC levels, and needing 13 Rogue for Epic Dodge, you're left with only 10 levels for WM. 10 levels gets you nothing with respect to AB that 5 doesn't, so you'd be better served stopping at 5 levels (or possibly 7 to improve your crit multiplier).

Hmmm, perhaps CLC 17/WM 7/Rogue 16? That way you can take Epic Dodge as a Rogue bonus feat. I'll think on this and get back to you.

Sorry, have been a bit busy lately...
I seem to have been a bit sloppy with the writing on my previous post. I didn't mean that I don't get enough feats. I meant that I don't get enough feats to match Grim's calculations. And as I don't match the calculations, the build turn out with lower stats than calculated.

By the way, this post of mine sure got a lot of attention... A little bit too much attention, perhaps... On the other post, people are actually arguing hard on these requirements of mine...

I made a build that matched some of the requirements I wanted. It turned out 6 barbarian/18 cleric/16 weaponmaster. It reached 44 AB, level 9 spells, uncanny dodge and 30 AC. Human, so it get two spare feats pre-epic instead of only 1. I can't remember the exact level progression, but I can come back to you with that.

And I realize now that I set the standard for AC way too high... On the server I play, the items are mainly +5 to +10. I must have miscalculated what AC is good and what is bad. I believe that the AC that should be met must be around 30, but I'm not sure. The building of characters without any bonuses from gear is even newer to me than the whole consept of character-building, so I apologize for being such a "noob".