Hey all. I'm after build details for hench and important NPCs. I've posted this request here a couple of times for no joy. The consensus from you folks, and rightly so, was that anything made with default packages would be a bit crappy.
However, Caereena 2 team (Skyrmir) has created an autolevel package that is 2da driven ie we can tell the hench/critter EXACTLY how to level-up, level by level, including which class, ability, skills, feats etc (even spells) to take at each and every level. This means that we can duplicate the builds you guys come up with perfectly.
We just need the data...
If you would like to see one of your builds featured in a module that will automatically go HoF, and is being created by arguably the most talented team ever assembled in the NwN community, then please post build details here or send them to ozdallo@gmail.com.
We need precise data regarding exactly what is chosen each level all the way to level 40. We don't necessarily need super-power builds, though a few would be sweet, but even info on builds that you've enjoyed playing and/or are a bit different.
Thanks in advance _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
I'm a bit disappointed by this lack of response.
You all want high-level combat mods, right? And there are hardly any decent ones out there. Right again?
Well, here is an author with a great team who wants to give you one, and spend thousands of hours of our time doing it, and you can't be bothered spending 10 minutes of yours.
I don't know why the hell we bother...
Twice before I've posted here for this info and your response as a guild was that anything using default packages would be crud. I agreed, and went away and had my team develop a system that could selectively level-up a hench/NPC exactly as a player might, including class, feats, skills, abilities, even spells.
Your response? Friggin zip! _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
Tell you what.. I'll send you my overly indepth spreadsheet .. just to make you feel warm and fuzzy
-DaMouse
I had wondered if you had read the epic builds thread?
All the data you say you need is in there already, level by level.
I'd take a look in there and see what you find. A lot of them are concepts designed with a particular aim in mind that is dependent on the mod it is used in. Others are more balanced for all terrain.
Quote: Posted 11/24/05 01:15:32 (GMT) -- Dallo
However, Caereena 2 team (Skyrmir) has created an autolevel package that is 2da driven ie we can tell the hench/critter EXACTLY how to level-up, level by level, including which class, ability, skills, feats etc (even spells) to take at each and every level. This means that we can duplicate the builds you guys come up with perfectly.
We just need the data...
...
We need precise data regarding exactly what is chosen each level all the way to level 40. We don't necessarily need super-power builds, though a few would be sweet, but even info on builds that you've enjoyed playing and/or are a bit different.
I had wondered if you had read the epic builds thread?
All the data you say you need is in there already, level by level.
I'd take a look in there and see what you find. A lot of them are concepts designed with a particular aim in mind that is dependent on the mod it is used in. Others are more balanced for all terrain.
I had wondered the same...then I read more carefully the OP and realized he needs exact data about what is chosen lvl by lvl. Most noticeably, what generally is missing in the epic builds thread are the spells chosen at lvl up and the skills dump lvl by lvl.
@Dallo: I'll send you soon some of my builds, hope you'll like 'em _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
If you want skill progressions, you'll probably have to request them. They're a pain in the arse to do and don't really make sense if done on paper though Kamiryn's CBC makes it 100x (quite literally!) easier to plan skills
As for spells, that can't be too hard, can it? O_o Ask someone more experienced (not me) to do a generic ranking of spells etc by general cheesy uberness (you know the usual - Protection from Alignment, IGMS), suitable for mod-playing.
And as for being ignored, one of my requests for info on prestige class summons was ignored but later someone else asked on the general discussion boards and got answered o_O. You might get a better response through actually PMing any individual members you want to contribute - the board's notifications of what's been read etc aren't exactly 'intelligent', and NWN is an old game now. I imagine there's a lot less guild activity than there once was (and certainly a lot less than other games I've played - this ain't an RP guild either), so responses are equally as sparse. Anyhow, I don't get too frustrated - we try to be helpful (most of us anyway - can't say about Kaliban if he does'nt like you or me in a bad mood >:) )but we're not perfect. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Quote: Posted 11/27/05 00:09:26 (GMT) -- Dallo
I'm a bit disappointed by this lack of response.
You all want high-level combat mods, right? And there are hardly any decent ones out there. Right again?
Well, here is an author with a great team who wants to give you one, and spend thousands of hours of our time doing it, and you can't be bothered spending 10 minutes of yours.
I don't know why the hell we bother...
Twice before I've posted here for this info and your response as a guild was that anything using default packages would be crud. I agreed, and went away and had my team develop a system that could selectively level-up a hench/NPC exactly as a player might, including class, feats, skills, abilities, even spells.
Your response? Friggin zip!
And you expect this type of post is going to garner help? Way to alienate your intended audience. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Quote: Posted 11/27/05 17:49:56 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
And you expect this type of post is going to garner help? Way to alienate your intended audience.
Way to make a modmaker go and do something else.....
Thanks to everyone else for their response. I'll check guild stickies and links more closely, and if anyone can be bothered sending me blow-by-blow info on levelling up a decent build then I'd be most grateful. Please PM me or preferably email me at ozdallo@gmail.com All builds used will be loudly creditted in the mod's docs. Spells level by level probably aren't necessary since I'm pretty sure we can assign these on the final level, though a list of final spells for the build would be useful.
Obviously there's a bit of this stuff we can do ourselves, and we are. But from a personal viewpoint I've done a lot more building than playing in the last couple of years, hence my requests here. Cheers. _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
Quote: Posted 11/28/05 00:08:43 (GMT) -- Dallo
Quote: Posted 11/27/05 17:49:56 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
And you expect this type of post is going to garner help? Way to alienate your intended audience.
Way to make a modmaker go and do something else.....
Cool!
Dallo, I did go to your groups site to read about you all. What i read seems good. ITs the personality you exuded above that turns me (and cinn, it would seem) off. I can understand your frustrations. It seems that all of us at one time, have designed something that we thought was extremely cool, only to have it ignored. **It happens. Live with it.
There is an OLD saying that goes, "who you are speaks so loud, i can't hear what you are saying." People neglect this alot, especially on the internet. If you missed what it means, let me paraphrase: get a l...
Peace. Good luck with life, after mods
If I've offended anyone here with my 'tone' then I apologize. I'm a grumpy old bastard sometimes, I admit it...
I know this isn't a support group as such, but even so where else would a builder go for such expertise other than the general forums?
I love messing about with the toolset, obviously, but any author/modmaker who doesn't consider h/her audience above all else is foolish. I copped a bit of flak from some players with my first mod because for many char builds it was just too easy. For a combat-oriented product obviously this isn't very good news, especially when i spent so much time on balance issues. I want to get it right this time, and I do think it fair enough for an author to make requests in a guild like this when the outcome will effect many of its members ie those who might play the product.
And btw, avado, my life is just fine. I suggest you examine your own tone. I've got a good job, a wife and 2 kids whose lives I'm involved with in many ways, and I'm basically a happy man. I hope you are so lucky. The above's got nothing at all to do with an invention not working, or being ignored. It's a great piece of code. It works fine. It just needs some data. _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
Edited By Dallo on 11/28/05 06:49
Quote: Posted 11/28/05 06:43:45 (GMT) -- Dallo
And btw, avado, my life is just fine. I suggest you examine your own tone. I've got a good job, a wife and 2 kids whose lives I'm involved with in many ways, and I'm basically a happy man. I hope you are so lucky. The above's got nothing at all to do with an invention not working, or being ignored. It's a great piece of code. It works fine. It just needs some data.
You mightn't know it but it's just that sort of agressive, attacking tone which can tick others off, and don't I know it avado's had a go at me for something like it before lol.
Anyhow, for a build, I'd elect Death's Rival by the dwarflord for inclusion but you'd have to ask him about it, not me. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Edited By Jennalee on 11/28/05 09:25
What a superb link! Thanks a bunch, Jennalee
I'll ask the grizzled one's permission before I use it, of course. I've got a dwarven subplot where that will fit perfectly. Cheers!
Regarding 'tone'...I came to the conclusion long ago that it's impossible to adequately express nuance in this sort of 1-dimensional media. Semantic issues, misunderstandings because of nationality/age/gender/socio-economic backgrounds etc etc are almost unavoidable. So I guess I've largely given up trying. No doubt many people find me a bit abrasive because of it, at least until they get to know what a pussycat I really am _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
Quote: Posted 11/28/05 09:24:06 (GMT) -- Jennalee
Anyhow, for a build, I'd elect Death's Rival by the dwarflord for inclusion but you'd have to ask him about it, not me.
I swear folks, I don't pay her a dime, though I may have to start.
Daldo, your project looks interesting, and I'm a grumpy old bastard, too. So bear with me. We are to assume you need skill point distribution breakdowns?
On build suggestions, crikey, there are so many, and then so many good ones, I wouldn't know where to start. It would be hardly fair recommending my own.
Are these mods hack-n-slash, medium roleplay, epic storyline, etc? Do you need a skill point breakdown level-by-level? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Anyhow, for a build, I'd elect Death's Rival by the dwarflord for inclusion but you'd have to ask him about it, not me.
I swear folks, I don't pay her a dime, though I may have to start.
Daldo, your project looks interesting, and I'm a grumpy old bastard, too. So bear with me. We are to assume you need skill point distribution breakdowns?
On build suggestions, crikey, there are so many, and then so many good ones, I wouldn't know where to start. It would be hardly fair recommending my own.
Are these mods hack-n-slash, medium roleplay, epic storyline, etc? Do you need a skill point breakdown level-by-level?
Maybe you should, dwarflord
Very nice thread btw. I enjoyed your back story very much.
Skill point breakdown level-by-level would be handy, mate, though from much of what I've seen here the basic info is provided re what's truly necessary, and certainly in this particular case how many 'spare' points are available.
The module will be story-driven hack/slash with as much roleplay as we can manage. Probably medium in the latter, though we only managed RP light in the first instalment. The storyline is epic, as it should be when dealing with PCs of levels 30+, I guess. The first mod has 20-30 hours of game play depending on class and exploration. We're aiming for perhaps half that at this stage with the sequel.
And please do recommend your own builds! I'm not absolutely sure exactly what we're looking for, to be frank, but we need variation and obviously we can write in anything cool. We've actually got 2 level-up mechanisms: the 2da-driven one I've mentioned for hench and other important NPCs and also another one that works on an OnEnter area scan. The latter only uses default packages but we can manipulate level difference (NPC level minus PC level) and it seems good enough for general combat purposes. But the real good and bad guys, and their minions etc, we want to have as much like a character created by a knowledgeable player as possible.
Cheers _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
Okay, that helps a bit. I'll try to include some picks that include Skill Guides.
My first nomination is for The ShadowArcher, by Syrath. It's the kind of NPC I would absolutely not have to face if I could help it. And it's a good build.
My Second nomination is for Mithdradates, The Bone Breaker.
A third nomination-- and this is for a vicious bad guy-- is The Assassin King, by yours truly.
One of my favorite Ranger Combo's is by the Illustrious Cinnabar Din, The Bane Stalker.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you need more, I'll dig through the Annals.
Edit It occurred to me to include some caster builds, but I was wondering how your AI was treating/scripting spellcasters and certain spells.
I suppose the same question should be asked of feats, like Dev Crit, HiPS, Epic Dodge, etc. Are you making any changes to certain feats, spells, etc? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Okay, that helps a bit. I'll try to include some picks that include Skill Guides.
My first nomination is for The ShadowArcher, by Syrath. It's the kind of NPC I would absolutely not have to face if I could help it. And it's a good build.
My Second nomination is for Mithdradates, The Bone Breaker.
A third nomination-- and this is for a vicious bad guy-- is The Assassin King, by yours truly.
One of my favorite Ranger Combo's is by the Illustrious Cinnabar Din, The Bane Stalker.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you need more, I'll dig through the Annals.
Edit It occurred to me to include some caster builds, but I was wondering how your AI was treating/scripting spellcasters and certain spells.
I suppose the same question should be asked of feats, like Dev Crit, HiPS, Epic Dodge, etc. Are you making any changes to certain feats, spells, etc?
Thanx a bunch, mi'lord dwarf
I'll PM these people for permission to use their material, unless of course they say aye here. It's only courtesy, and at least one of those builders doesn't like me much, I suspect...
Dev Critical is of particular concern to me.... We plan to check whether the PC has the feat OnEnter and, if so, apply an immunity to criticals to certain critters. I know this isn't ideal, since that also takes out sneak attack and is unfair anyway, but it's a better solution probably than giving the NPCs a huge fortitude save. The player will likewise be provided with short-term immunity to critical hits against some critters. No spoilers about how we'll do this, but it'll be short term.
If anyone here has a better idea about how to deal with this dilemma then I sure would like to hear it Dev critical is a pita. Even major demons could go down with a single whack. I know in many instances this should be acceptable (in in the rules, after all) but I really really don't like this particular feat.
The rest I think are fair enough. We may give the occasional critter a spell immunity too...
Builds that are of a bit of concern to us at the moment are rangers (low level, mostly useless but laggy spell animations), though obviously they make fine archers, and druids because of the shapeshift AI glitch. However, I've been talking to nereng, who's a bit of an authority on hench, as many of you no doubt would know, and he's worked out something with shifter feats so that you can tell a hench to assume a certain shape. Not ideal, I know, but at least it brings druids into the equation, though not of course for bad guys. We'll have to fake that one. We're examing tony k's AI at the moment, though there seems some differences of opinion amongst my partners about it. A rule of our dev team is that a single 'nay' is a veto...I can veto the veto, but it's not something I'd like to do...
We're also not sure about pale masters...
Re spell-casters in general, I've found that you can actually create a quasi-AI by either delimiting spell lists (inappropriate) or adding certain spells as special abilities. They tend to use the latter more readily. This especially applies, perhaps, to Epic Spells. I've got a handy little gadget that will attach NPCs temporarily as hench, so I can roadtest such stuff.
As for any more, yes please Though no hurry at the moment, man. It'll take me a few days to check these ones out. Thanks again, dwarflord!!
Thanks also to daMouse404 for a very nice shadowdancer build Cheers, buddy!
Re immunity to critical/sneak attack on critters for some rogue builds in particular, it should be noted that the player can pick up 2 hench (there'll be plenty of variation) and in some plot situations might have as many as 4 hench to help out. _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
Edited By Dallo on 11/29/05 05:52
Quote: Re spell-casters in general, I've found that you can actually create a quasi-AI by either delimiting spell lists (inappropriate) or adding certain spells as special abilities.
delimiting spell lists must be the easiest way of going about this (I'm a would-be programmer of some sorts, meh). I myself tried making some fine builds work in the hands of the computer but as I'm just a schoolboy I have very limited time and never really had time to work with it. The mod in question has been trashed by now.
Nevertheless, this sounds like a fine project. I'm not going to elect any of my own builds here, but I'd like to ask just how complex is your AI? Oh and does it use Taunt, KD and such?
Here's my all time favourite build: Click Here _________________ Now is my day's work done; I'll take good breath: Rest, sword; thou hast thy fill of blood and death.
Skill point distributions are most needed if the class balance is different from pre-epic to post epic in a build, especially if you're say, mixing Rogue and melee classes because of the massive disparity between how many skill points per level those classes get. If they're similar, it's less needed.
Say, if you're taking 16 Fighter/4 Rogue pre-epic, and then another 4 Fighter levels and 16 Rogue, you're going to get a LOT more skillpoints in your epic levels than pre-epic. You might end up with a heap of skillpoints but won't really be able to spend up in skills until your epic levels. It can be quite a pain, actually. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Quote: Posted 11/29/05 05:47:15 (GMT) -- Dallo
Dev Critical is of particular concern to me.... We plan to check whether the PC has the feat OnEnter and, if so, apply an immunity to criticals to certain critters. I know this isn't ideal, since that also takes out sneak attack and is unfair anyway, but it's a better solution probably than giving the NPCs a huge fortitude save.
I'm not sure if nerfing sneaks so you can nerf Dev Crit is a good solution. It effectively renders pointless Rogues, Assassins, Blackguards, Weaponmasters, etc. I thought there was a way to be immune to one and not the other, no? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
@ FinneousPJ: delimiting the spell list in some way might indeed be the easiest way to go (especially since I'm almost certain we can assign what we want on the last level). The only problem with this scenario is, again, stoopid AI. It's possible that they'd just keep casting the same spell again and again.... We didn't have this autolevel system(s) in CKR, and I had to make each and every creature according to the situation. What I did was erase their spell lists and went for special abilities only. This allowed very good control over exactly what they'd cast, obviously, but it was a LOT of work and hardly ideal...
Hmmm...Thinking about it now I'm actually not completely sure whether special abilities are channelled through feats such as spell penetration/focus etc. Certainly the epic spells aren't, I know. One to check out...
At the moment all we have is standard AI, though as I've indicated there are ways to mess with it. We are checking out what's available, including tony k's and Jasperre's stuff. What we are endeavouring at all costs is to try to avoid anything which seriously overwrites Bioware stuff. Too many unknowns and possible stuff-ups. nereng's hench code at the moment looks most promising (uses tony k's and a lot of his own stuff).
Thanks for the link to that bard build Looks sweet!
@ Jennalee: the beauty about skills is that you can save them for a later level-up. As long as we ensure that the ones required for prestige classes etc etc are assigned then we can probably save the remainder for the last level. This is why I'm particularly excited about the links I've seen from you guys ie they show final skill distribution
@ dwarflord: unfortunately, mate, sneak attack is considered a subset of critical hits. You can, I'm almost certain, assign immunity to sneak attack without it affecting critical hits, but as soon as you assign critical hit immunity it takes out sneak attack as well... The reasons for this being the case are actually quite compelling in DnD lore, but obviously in this scenario it's a pita. What we intend to do, as I've indicated, is check whether the PC (and maybe the hench too) have the Dev Critical feat and assign critical immunity to certain critters in this circumstance. This actually won't occur that often, just with certain plot monsters etc. Most rogue builds, I'd think, wouldn't have the feat and so won't be affected. Also, we plan to have a time limit on this immunity in some way ie it's a temporary thing (maybe associated with a vfx so the PC will know it's occurring) and have it brought down in a variety of ways. Maybe the PC will have to kill all the minions first, maybe there's a small puzzle to solve, maybe it's linked to critter hitpoints etc etc. We'll come up with interesting ways to do this We just don't want fights that should be seriously challenging being over in a single whack. We could assign a high fortitude save instead, but my feeling is that this would seriously compromise too much other stuff.
I understand your concerns very well though, mate, and honestly am wide open to any and all suggestions about this issue. Cheers all! _________________ (the halfling paladin bows deeply..) I bid you greetings, Gentlefolk. Diminuitive Dallo, champion of Lathander, at your service. Caereena - Krakona Rising
or me in a bad mood >:) )but we're not perfect.
Maybe you should, dwarflord