I need to make Thaxll'ssyllia in a build, for those who don't know who he is: A freakin' Shadow Dragon. So this build needs Dragon Shape as a must (too bad there's no black dragon shapeshift). I would need to know which is the lowest possible druid level needed to make dragon shift
For starters with the Shahdow-evil kind of stuff, I thought a dragon with Devastating Critical would be so powerful, the DC would be great (STR is a factor right?) although the critical is 19-20.......... then I knew the character would need 25 STR and 30 WIS with the last feat most possibly at level 39....... and got dissapointed on how ridiculously impossible that sounds, so I tried to do it!
I think you can make a Half-Orc (or any other class actually) with 17 STR and 18 WIS easily, just break all the rest down, anyway the dragon shift changes STR, DEX adn CON, multiclass with RDD (which would need a previous Bard level), to level 10 for its +8 STR bonus (17 + 8 = 25 if I'm correct) and take all the level and feat bonuses for WIS, and of course power attack, cleave... blah blah, needed for dev crit. I think it can make the dev crit, which sounds great on a dragon, but Bard/RDD/Druid won't let me make a further multiclass with Monk..... so AC and AB gets really bad..... I'll have to make it anyway to see how it gets, if I'm lucky I ca use RDD's fire breath on dragon shift, because dragon shift's breath sucks.
When I made my first dragon (monk 2/ druid 38), it went out pretty good for PvM, but then I foun out that for a dragon it was a basic weak one, but I can use it for some reference anyway, my AB was +45 and my AC was 83 in dragon form, making around 40 damage, now I've seen bards bluffing AB adn AC very well, but I don't want to make a build like someone I've already seen.
To increase the damage, I thought I could use a level in Monk, the lest druid needed and then multiclass assasin or rouge for sneak attack/death attack (or even improved sneak attack), I think the assasin might be better, because it gets to epic levels faster and the death attack DC would be quite high (If I remember correctly it's 10 + assasin level + DEX modifier), the death attack with KD or IK makes my damage problems go away, but my AB wouldn't improve.... they would stay at those +45 or very near.
Another choice I thought on was Fighter levels pre-epic, I could get +5 AB, an extra attack per round and +6 damage from normal + epic weapon specialization, something like "fighter 21 / monk 1 / druid 18", maybe more monk levels... still need to know what's the minimum druid level.
Blackguard can work near as the Fighter, but 10 levels pre-epic are the maximum, I get the extra attack per round alright, AB would improve, but not so much(+2 or +3, not sure), but I would gain more damage with a possible "druid 15 / monk 1 / blackguard 24" which makes what? a 8d6 sneak attack? something like that.
Another thought choice was low druid with a lot of Monk, channel the Monk's magic resistance, empty body (does this work with shapeshifting?), and the stunning blow, with a good DC (WIS improves stunning blow DC right?), but AB stay there.
So, I don't *need* help to make the build, but I would like some opinions, as well as the info about the druid level and the DC's(I'm not in a computer with NWN right now to check). I want this build to be great, it's my name on the line.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/09/06 17:48
You could opt for a Half-Orc Druid 28/ CoT 10/ Monk 2.
A quick test (by no means finalised!)
Advantages are:
Good Saves before shifting (Fort 27, Will 36, Reflex 22) Potentially a further +8 to Spells from Spellcraft Better Saves after shifting (Fort 39, Will 36, Reflex 36) Good AC - from Monk AC WIS bonus and DS Undispellable (except MD of course) from 28 Druid levels Dev Crit DC of 44 in DS 9th level Druid Spells
Poor Hitpoints before shifting Poor AB unshifted and unbuffed (36 melee) XP Penalty sadly. Need to waste 2 Weapon Focus (1 Unarmed and 1 Melee to qualify for CoT) Dev Crit and DS unavailable until 39th level at the earliest.
Skills: Discipline, Tumble, Spellcraft and Concentration are a must.
An option possibly...
As a note to keep in mind RDD Breath Weapon has a sucky DC on it too.
Death Attack DC is calculated as below: DC=10 + Assassin Level + INT modifier
Stunning Fist DC is calculated as below: DC=10 + 1/2 Character Level + WIS modifier
Edited By I...Samphus on 02/09/06 21:50
You need a minimum of 14 Druid to get DS. And you need to level as druid the level you take it. The Breath weapon beats the once a day breath from the RDD easy, at least with epic shifter in it. Aside from that, await tips from Kail Pendragon, since he is our official Dragon-Tamer.
Sorry - ignore my earlier post about WF Unarmed - you won't need it as it doesn't carry into DS (speak to Kail).
You could go Human Druid 28, RDD 10, Bard 2 to achieve both
NO Alignment Change More Skillpoints Saves are not as good Tight on Feats in Epic Levels
could be a possibility also
Foget about unshifted status or alignment/XP penalties.
I don't think "Druid 28/ CoT 10/ Monk 2" cuts out dev crit and dragon shift, but as you said, I'm ignoring that post.
Quote: ignore my earlier post
Alright, might as well ignore the dragon breath too....
"Druid 28, RDD 10, Bard 2"? by which means this gets a good AB and AC? I mean, I said RDD for the dev crit, but I don't seriously think it gets to be a good one... anyway, I think on that regard, some more bard levels for the song would help....... as I said before I don't want to copy that idea.
So..... I learned somewhere else that death attack works with INT, not DEX, screwed there man, my DC wouldn't get over 40 I think, is that a high DC? because I guess it might not. Stunning fist DC would get at least 38 with a Druid 14 / Monk 26, since 30 WIS is my "minimum", at least it doesn't requieres previous knockdown or something, Stunning Fist works good frontally even if KD fails.
The Rogue would give me more sneak attack for great damage, but of course, after KD.
PM-ing Kail.
Hello guys!
Altough the idea of building a Devastating Dragon is a charming one, I am sorry to inform you that for some mysterious reason Devastating Critical (unarmed) does not work in DS.
If that was not odd enough to you, let it be known that Overwhelming Critical (unarmed) instead nicely carries over to DS. As if 1d6 extra damage on a crit meant much when you get +38 from STR alone...bah!
Just for academical talk, even if Dev Crit worked the build wouldn't be among the best. I haven't put much effort in doing such a build once I realized that dev crit does not work, but still the constraints one has to accept to achieve dev crit andDS in the same build are quite severe. One way to go is Druid 14/CoT 22/Monk 4 (Druid 12/CoT 5/Monk 3 preepic) like this (roughly, it's a lvl 40 build for trial in a lvlup module)
Druid(14), Champion of Torm(22), Monk(4) Half-Orc, Lawful neutral
01: Druid(1): Knockdown 02: Druid(2) 03: Druid(3): Weapon Focus: Scimitar 04: Druid(4): WIS+1, (WIS=19) 05: Druid(5) 06: Druid(6): Extend Spell 07: Druid(7) 08: Druid(8): WIS+1, (WIS=20) 09: Druid(9): Empower Spell 10: Druid(10) 11: Druid(11) 12: Druid(12): WIS+1, Blind Fight, (WIS=21) 13: Champion of Torm(1) 14: Champion of Torm(2): Improved Critical: Unarmed 15: Champion of Torm(3): Power Attack, {Smite Evil} 16: Monk(1): WIS+1, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}, (WIS=22) 17: Champion of Torm(4): Great Cleave 18: Monk(2): Toughness, {Deflect Arrows} 19: Monk(3) 20: Champion of Torm(5): WIS+1, (WIS=23) 21: Champion of Torm(6): Great Strength I, Great Wisdom I, (STR=19), (WIS=24) 22: Champion of Torm(7) 23: Champion of Torm(8): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=25) 24: Champion of Torm(9): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=21) 25: Champion of Torm(10): Great Wisdom III, (WIS=26) 26: Champion of Torm(11) 27: Druid(13): Great Strength III, (STR=22) 28: Champion of Torm(12): STR+1, (STR=23) 29: Champion of Torm(13) 30: Champion of Torm(14): Great Strength IV, Great Wisdom IV, (STR=24), (WIS=27) 31: Champion of Torm(15) 32: Champion of Torm(16): WIS+1, (WIS=28) 33: Champion of Torm(17): Great Strength V, (STR=25) 34: Champion of Torm(18): Great Wisdom V, (WIS=29) 35: Champion of Torm(19) 36: Champion of Torm(20): WIS+1, Overwhelming Critical: Unarmed, (WIS=30) 37: Champion of Torm(21) 38: Monk(4) 39: Druid(14): Dragon Shape 40: Champion of Torm(22): STR+1, Devastating Critical: Unarmed, (STR=26)
That's to give an idea of what you have to give up to get DS+Dev Crit. It's what I used to first test the dev crit in DS, nothing fancy, saves apart.
Druid 28/Bard 2 /RDD 10 would be another possibility but without the monk's AC and att progression and just 3 att/round. I haven't got anything written down unfortunately.
Another possible way to go is Druid 28/CoT 10/Monk 2 (as I...Samphus popinted out), which has 25 BAB (5 att/round unarmed) but high caster lvls for undispellable buffs and a decent companion. You are as tight on feats as the first build. Probably the best option if it just worked.
From my first analysis of the possible academical ways to go, you either go tight on feats but with monk's cheese, either with more spare feats but no monk cheese (which is not a small issue) and worse BAB.
If the "bug" will ever be fixed then we might come back at it and try building something decent, for now I'd say the debate is, unfortunately, over.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
Now that was unexpected.......
Is CoT really so great? seems very mentioned... with CoT levels I get the sixth attack per round I guess, but no real effective use maybe with a low AB, in any way, wouldn't more Monk levels instead of Druid make it get more stuff? Improved Evasion and Diamond Soul would be good.
If there's not much I can do with the AB I prefer to increase damage, druid 14/ monk 1/ Rogue 25 with improved sneak attacks for most possible damage, what do you think?
Is CoT really so great? seems very mentioned... with CoT levels I get the sixth attack per round I guess, but no real effective use maybe with a low AB, in any way, wouldn't more Monk levels instead of Druid make it get more stuff? Improved Evasion and Diamond Soul would be good.
If there's not much I can do with the AB I prefer to increase damage, druid 14/ monk 1/ Rogue 25 with improved sneak attacks for most possible damage, what do you think?
I wasn't surprised by the fact that DevCrit doesn't carry over given the fact that many "unarmed" feats do not work in DS, I was amazed tough to see that OvCrit instead did carry over.
About CoT: unless you put in RDD to raise your STR, you need CoT to raise your WIS (Great WIS is in the CoT epic bonus feat list). You get the 6th att in the version I posted, and as you can see you burn all your CoT epic bonus feats on great WIS or the crit feats, by going Druid 28/Monk 2/CoT 10 you would do the same, with only 5 att/round and 1 less feat preepic (and using the two bonus druid feats on Great WIS). Druid/Bard/RDD is the only combination giving you some spare feats but you lose monk's cheese (ouch!).
Anyhow, given that DevCrit does not work, you are free to work easier and less constraining paths.
Dragon builds are quite constraining to start with, you see: you need 30 WIS, you probably wanna get it soon enough not to delay DS till the end of your career and as a mater of fact you need Monk too to take advantage of monk uap and boni to AC and to put to further good use that high WIS of yours. So Druid 14+/Monk ?? is already set, plus WIS 30 final, and probably WIS 18 (starting). You are left with only one other class to choose.
Also you have to consider that dragons do not benefit from gear as much as other characters, cause when you shapeshift only armor merges (and all armor boni become deflection boni). That means that you probably wanna have good buffing capacities, which means high caster lvls be it druid, cleric, or something else. Personally, I find the druid/cleric combination quite powerful.
Druid/Rogue will have to count on UMD/scrolls or potions to buff up AB when needed (divine power, divine favor, bless, prayer, aid, battletide, haste, ...), but could be an interesting build. Your buffs will be dispellable though. The effectivness of the build will depend on your playing environment and available gear. Low magic will suit you best, or a world with armor and helmets with uber properties that you can merge.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
Quote: Druid/Rogue will have to count on UMD/scrolls or potions to buff up AB when needed (divine power, divine favor, bless, prayer, aid, battletide, haste, ...)
yes, that is true. also have to remember that spells(except epic ones) and items aren't usable in shifted forms.
But I was thinking about what was said in the first post
Quote: Another thought choice was low druid with a lot of Monk, channel the Monk's magic resistance, empty body (does this work with shapeshifting?), and the stunning blow, with a good DC (WIS improves stunning blow DC right?), but AB stay there.
does shifted forms magic resistance stack with monk magic resistance? or with items. it might be cool to make a druid/monk/** (cot maybe?) dragon has 20 spellresistance, stack that with 10 improved spell resistance feats and 12 monk levels and you have 62SR. practicaly immune to any spell, and you could get a little more (66) with more monk levels.
but the question remains, does it stack?
No SR does not stack, only the highest value is used. You are better off with the spell Spell Resistance, with 25+ caster lvls it's undispellable and SR=37+.
Stunning fist works nicely, with a DC=40-44, 46-50 with capped WIS. With a few lvls of monk extra stunning attacks is a worthwhile feat.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
WS and EWS don't work, how surprising, but I just tested and WF and EWF does add to DS.
CoT works nicely, Evasion with that reflex is almost perfect, and divine wrath works while shapeshifted, although it doesn't lasts very long.
For SR I keep the druid spell, at level 14 druid you get 26 SR and lasts 1 turn per level, which is fine (specially if extended).
Thanks, I'll be starting to make my build now.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/12/06 22:26
ATTENTION: WF/EWF do not work in DS. Check the combat log, even better enable combat debugging.
The sheet might say so, but it's lying. Have a look at the results from my tests here (on the 2nd page), everything is explained there. Never trust the sheet.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò