I made a build with a lot of great buffs that last for a ridiculously low amount of time. (Monk 1 / Druid 14 / Cleric 25 (domains war and strength))
LOL, the buffs cover all the line of buffered status at the top.
Fortitude 41, reflex 38, will 43 when fully buffed.
Buffed DS stats are really strong, +74 AB (counting that for some reason WF and EWF works shifted on my PC) with damage of 2-16 +25 +2 magical +1 slashing + 5 magical + 6 bludgeoning (41-55), and AC of 84, with no equipment, not even haste, spell resistance of 37.
The least duration buff I think is divine favor, which lasts only 1 turn, or the domain specials, which last 5 rounds + CHA modifier, which should be of primary importance, and then half of the buffs last 25 rounds (1 round per cleric level). Of course, start using the hour per level and turn per level buffs.
I don't know if it's actually a good build, I mean, you spend like 2 minutes on buffing, and it lasts very little, I think it might get good on a PvP, since 25 rounds, or around 20 counting the buffing time spent, should be enough to win.
For the real times, a round is 6 seconds, anyway I can count usng the battle rounds, but how long is a turn? according to me is one real time minute, or say,, 60 seconds. Hours don't really matter as they're pretty long, I think 1 hour of the game is 10 minutes.....
Just to know, has this build been made before (if not to go and do it now), and I would like to know what you people think about it.....
I made a build with a lot of great buffs that last for a ridiculously low amount of time. (Monk 1 / Druid 14 / Cleric 25 (domains war and strength)
Uh, that lvl split looks familiar especially when coupled with dragon shape Oh, what's this?. Buffs last long enough to get rid of what dares to stand in your path
Quote: LOL, the buffs cover all the line of buffered status at the top.
Fortitude 41, reflex 38, will 43 when fully buffed.
Buffed DS stats are really strong, +74 AB (counting that for some reason WF and EWF works shifted on my PC) with damage of 2-16 +25 +2 magical +1 slashing + 5 magical + 6 bludgeoning (41-55), and AC of 84, with no equipment, not even haste, spell resistance of 37.
You hit the cap at +69 AB and WF/EWF do not work even on your computer you are misreading the results of your tests (see my post in the epic build page). Haste "just" speeds you up, since dragon shape already hits the dodge cap with its natural +20 dodge AC.
Quote: The least duration buff I think is divine favor, which lasts only 1 turn, or the domain specials, which last 5 rounds + CHA modifier, which should be of primary importance, and then half of the buffs last 25 rounds (1 round per cleric level). Of course, start using the hour per level and turn per level buffs.
I don't know if it's actually a good build, I mean, you spend like 2 minutes on buffing, and it lasts very little, I think it might get good on a PvP, since 25 rounds, or around 20 counting the buffing time spent, should be enough to win.
Cast haste (choose travel domain), then the other buffs, buffing time will halve (by the way war and Srength domain are pretty useless considering low CHA and druid giving already access to AoV). And if you pick trickery domain you get II too (50% less hits).
Quote: For the real times, a round is 6 seconds, anyway I can count usng the battle rounds, but how long is a turn? according to me is one real time minute, or say,, 60 seconds. Hours don't really matter as they're pretty long, I think 1 hour of the game is 10 minutes.....
1 hour = 2 turns = 20 rounds
1 round = 6 sec 1 turn = 60 sec = 1 min 1 hour = 2 min
Quote:
Just to know, has this build been made before (if not to go and do it now), and I would like to know what you people think about it.....
I don't know what to think. Me and Grimm have been giving you links to my build in the last couple of days.
Maybe you haven't checked out and it's just big minds thinking alike...
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 02/14/06 02:29
Aye, it's a stubborn one, this. We've linked your build and told him time and again, still he insists on wasting feats on WF and EWF. Even I were convinced not to in the end. He must have seen Jormundgandr by now, or not. Anyhow, of course this build is silly strong. For PvP all your long term buffs must be up, then quickly cast the short ones and let it rip. 1H duration in PnP is 6 turns, never checked in-game though, you might be right. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 02/14/06 05:19
Also, don't forget to extend all of the short-term buffs. That gives you 50 rounds for the shortest ones (except the domain buffs). And remember that you can activate the domain powers while in DS, so cast all the spells (haste first, or wearing a haste item), shortest duration ones last, then shift into DS, and have the domain powers hotkeyed for use after you enter melee (and buff your cha for a few more rounds from them). You should have 40+ rounds with all of the spell buffs, and 7-10 with the domain buffs (which you won't activate until you enter combat so as not to waste them).
Jormungandr is a tough build. He does spend a LOT of time buffing, and he could be vulnerable if caught unprepared, but once he's buffed he's good for a while.
TM
Tattoed Monk rightly points out the use of metamagic feats (I gave it for granted, but it's better to be clear) to increase buffs duration. You really won't need to make use of war/srength domain powers, since you already cap your stats with your buffs (DEX apart). I find trickery and travel much more useful. If permahaste armor (remember DS merge armor only, which means armor, helms and shields) is common than you can swap travel domain for something like Healing domain or even War for DEX buffing capacity.
Let me point out that in high magic environments all dragon builds are disadvantaged because they merge armor only. Jormundgandr has a solid human shape to use, which makes you use all the gear you might find.
If you are afraid to get caught unprepared just cast greater sanctuary or II or both (extended) as soon as you wake up. Let's put to good use the tons of spells you have access to
If the fight takes too long and your buffs fade, go back to human form, cast GS and rebuff yourself up.
Thaxll'ssyllia, you should understand both the more and the less fine details of the build to make good use of it... well, this is true of any build. You seem to still be missing some understanding, you should try to figure out how to exploit all your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. It takes practice mostly; build Jormundgandr (or your version of it) and try using different strategies, you won't be disappointed. Uh, and organize your hotkeys well
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Ok, I've been convinced by now that WF and EWF don't work.
The other time I checked that build, you said check page 2, so I did, although I wasn't completely convinced back then, but as a fact, I only supposed it was a dragon anyway, and didn't checked the build quite as I should, lol.
Haste just gives more speed? and the extra attack per round is no good or what? I know buffing time halves, but can you really say it doesn't takes a lot of time? I didn't knew the dragon had maxed the dodge..... according to me my AC did increased when equipping the haste..... but now I might be confusing myself for when I was using other shifts.
What exactly is a high magic environment?
Cast GS..... now what's that?
I generally just think in the strengths and weaknesses tend to get pointed, lol. I'm still not familiarized with all the spells and I hate skills. I've been told recently that UMD is very useful, but I've always fought without using expendable stuffs, I never even try to get them, focus on what my character does and that's it, is that really so bad?
After being obviously ridiculized for haven't noticing Jormungandr is so like what I was thinking of.... I'll probably go to something else for now...... I still haven't updated my other builds to correct their flaws.
Quote: Posted 02/14/06 17:58:12 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Haste just gives more speed? and the extra attack per round is no good or what? I know buffing time halves, but can you really say it doesn't takes a lot of time? I didn't knew the dragon had maxed the dodge..... according to me my AC did increased when equipping the haste..... but now I might be confusing myself for when I was using other shifts.
Your dodge AC is maxed in DS. You will see the AC increase by 4 in human shape, but when you shift you get the same AC (unless you have cast Blood Frenzy - the haste bonus does cancel the -1 from it).
Quote: What exactly is a high magic environment?
Depends on your personal taste, but I consider +10 or higher items available to be high magic. Since DS does not merge anything other than armor, a non-shifter can get +10 AC from armor, shield, cloak, amulet, and boots, for +50 (+ base from armor and shield, and their naked AC). At that point they can probably get higher AC than the DS build. For hitting, the DS build has +6 claws, with no way to enhance them further. If human shapes can get +20 weapons, they will probably have higher AB than your DS (especially if they have WM levels, WF/EWF/EP, etc.).
Quote: Cast GS..... now what's that?
Greater Sanctuary. Makes you effectively invisible and untargettable until you attack or cast an offensive spell. II is Improved Invisibility, not quite as effective as GS but close.
Quote: I generally just think in the strengths and weaknesses tend to get pointed, lol. I'm still not familiarized with all the spells and I hate skills. I've been told recently that UMD is very useful, but I've always fought without using expendable stuffs, I never even try to get them, focus on what my character does and that's it, is that really so bad?
UMD is nice enough for scrolls, but it's even better for using other equipment. A high-UMD rogue or bard can wear monk boots, wield a holy avenger sword, use all wands and rods, wear alignment-restricted armors, etc. Very useful. Scrolls are just the icing on the cake.
TM
Quote: Thaxll'ssyllia The other time I checked that build, you said check page 2, so I did, although I wasn't completely convinced back then, but as a fact, I only supposed it was a dragon anyway, and didn't checked the build quite as I should, lol.
Haste just gives more speed? and the extra attack per round is no good or what? I know buffing time halves, but can you really say it doesn't takes a lot of time? I didn't knew the dragon had maxed the dodge..... according to me my AC did increased when equipping the haste..... but now I might be confusing myself for when I was using other shifts.
If you read the 2nd page you should know what Haste does and doesn't do It also seems kind of impossible not to notice the topic's name which has the class spread
A high magic environment is where your weapons are +12 with +2d10 of 5 different damage types, basicly a lot of magical enhancements on items.
GS stands for Greater Sanctuary.
EDIT: typo _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
It takes time and practice to learn all the fine tricks in the game.
Now about your questions:
1) Haste gives you the extra attack of course, I wanted to point out it doesn't give you any bonus to AC since you already hit the dodge cap in DS. It actually compesates the -1 AC you get from Blood Frenzy tough so its bonus to AC it's not entirely useless. Once more, do not trust what the sheet says, it's a very unreliable source of information.
2) High magic environment means a module/PW (persistant world) where gear with high magical boni/special properties are easily available. For example +10 weapons/armors or gloves with high elemental damage and so on
3) Greater Sanctuary, a lvl 6 clerical spell. No one will be able to see or attack you. It can save your day when the fight gets real tough.
4) UMD lets you use/equip gear you wouldn't normally be able to use, for example monk's robes without monk lvls or cast spells from scrolls (which does not causes any attack of opportunity) without any caster lvl or generally use race/alignment/class restricted items. It's a very valuable skill, if you have access to it you probably want to max it out. As for not using it, it means you are giving up one useful and powerful option at your disposal so in that sense it is bad. About your "hate" for skills, let me tell you that there are some very useful skills like concentration, discipline, spellcraft, tumble, taunt, UMD to say a few (tumble and spellcraft you want to max out even if cross class just for the boni to AC and saves vs spells). You'd better get a grip on what the different skills let you make or give you before discarding them.
As I said it takes time and practice to learn everything. It took me some time to realize the full potential of Jormundgandr and learn to use it well. The forums are a nice place to ask questions and get advice, build criticism is supposed to help you get a better build or become aware of issues you are not even aware of at times.
By the way, welcome to the guild!
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Thanks.
What about adding divine might to the dragon? it needs power attack, turn undead and 13+ STR and CHA.... adding divine damage with infinite uses and can be casted while shapeshifted (although the AB doesn't adds, you might know better than me why), cleric level stays the same, so all buffs and spells are still as good (unless, considering spell penetration might go away if you were thinking on it), for pre-epic spells I don't think there's much of a problem (spell penetration again), the problems are that I find it to finish short on skills and only got my CHA to 16, getting only +3 divine power..... but maybe it can be improved.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/15/06 00:09
I think you're mixing Divine Might and Divine Power there. And I don't see where that infinite uses is coming from unless shifting somehow breaks the ability (though I doubt it, there's no apparent reason for that anyway ) _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
~ Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Divine Might uses a turn undead, so you will only have a few uses per day unless you pump Cha. It only lasts for 1 round per Cha bonus point, so it won't last long unless you pump Cha. It only adds your Cha bonus to damage, so it won't help much unless you... wait for it... pump Cha.
Since you are already tight on ability points to get Wis to 30 ASAP, it's probably not worth it. You would have to minimize almost all your other stats just to get Str and Cha to 13 (only 4 points left over with Wis at 18 and Str and Cha at 13). That feat is really intended for Cha-based paladins, or high-Cha Clerics (turners/buffers who leave Wis at 19 or 20).
TM
WAIT!!! What's this bout high magic wordlds being with +10 itms or GREATER!! OMG! where are these? You mean, all this time, i've been sluggin away with my +7 bsword thinkin im the king shizzznit and everyone else has +10 daggers of ungodly bonus damages that do 1000 per hit!!!
Please, if you know of any of these superservers, PM me with the names! PLEEEEZE!
Peace
I understood that over +10, since Tatooed Monk said this:
Quote: If human shapes can get +20 weapons....
But to make story short, +10 can be easily buyed in HotU chapter 3.... you wouldn't even need anything special about it, single player with no changes get it..... I generally base my equipment on those, to avoid server problems or something weird.
+7 bastard sword is no big deal..... again, in HotU chaper 3 you can make melee weapons enhanced +10, keen, +20 SR, true sight, +2d6 (acid/lightning/cold/fire), haste..... I think that's quite it.
And that is not high magical environment, just plain single player.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 02/18/06 17:06
Well, I did say high magic is somewhat taste-dependent.
I generally consider caps of +4 or less to be low magic (means nothing on the server exceeds +4).
I consider +5 to +9 to be medium magic (which is where I would class HotU).
I consider worlds with +10 or higher items available to be high magic.
Some people might place the borders at +3 and +6 instead of +4 and +9, as I said it is somewhat dependent on taste. A +7 sword isn't piddly, but yes, some servers have +15 items on them, and your +7 sword isn't going to do well against someone decked out in +15 stuff.
The Jormungandr build has pretty high AB, but no way to enhance it further with items. It has pretty high AC, but very little way to enhance it further with items (merge armor only, does not stack with the protective spells you can already cast, so you only benefit by the difference between the armor enhancement and the +5 you had from spells already). So the lower the magic available, the better it does. The higher the magic available, the worse he will do compared to a human using the best items.
TM
Even though, there is a limit right? I think I read that the bonus cap was +20 to each single type.... is this correct? there can't be more than +20 equipment?
Yeah, enemies using +20 weapon/armor sounds bad if you fight shapeshifted.... but +3 sounds like killing grounds.
Yup, the cap is +20. For each AC type.
All builds focusing on shifted forms become less effective in high magic worlds because either they can't merge many items (DS for example), either it's easy for a non-shifter type to get shifter like powers/boni through items. In this second case you are free to choose another career (with its advantages) and get immunities-boni from items and not from class. In low magic worlds a DS build like Jormundgandr rules.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
It also seems kind of impossible not to notice the topic's name which has the class spread 
(though I doubt it, there's no apparent reason for that anyway 
where are these? You mean, all this time, i've been sluggin away with my +7 bsword thinkin im the king shizzznit and everyone else has +10 daggers of ungodly bonus damages that do 1000 per hit!!!