I have been searching for a very good dex monkey warrior build but havent come across a good one yet.. most are strength based warriors.
Some Pre Reqs...
1. Can't have any caster levels (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard) or monk levels.
2. High AB... some of the very good warrior builds with average AB doesnt cut it on the server I play on.
Well, the highest possible melee AB is with a Halfling Fighter/WM. You can toss in some Rogue levels for skill dumps. Go Fighter 10/WM 10 pre-epic, WM 18 in epic (the last 2 can be whatever you want - more fighter for another feat, Rogue for skilldumps, SD for HiPS, etc.).
But if you are going dex-based, I would recommend sacrificing a few points of AB to pick up Epic Dodge. You will need at least 10 SD levels or 13 Rogue levels to qualify for it.
AA's can get even higher AB on the arrows, but they require a few caster levels.
TM
Indeed, the maximum AB build is a halfling Fighter (11 or 10)/WM 28/HS (1 or 2).
AB -- 30 Base +14 DEX +3 EWF +1 EP +7 WM +1 Small Size -- 56
AC -- 10 Base +14 DEX +8 Tumble +2 AS +1 Small Size -- 35
That's naked, of course. Umm, the damage sucks, though _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
~ Summoning - Khazad-Dúm
I would suggest something along these lines:
This does give up 6 points of AB compared to the Fighter 10/WM 28/Rogue 2 version (2 from not taking all the Great Dex possible, 1 BAB from 4 pre-epic Rogue levels, and 3 from WM levels), but it gets 7d6 sneak damage instead of 1d6 (significant damage output), enough skillpoints to max Hide and MS to make sneak attacks useful, and Epic Dodge (very nice for a dex fighter). I picked KD/IKD instead of going for the TWF feats since IKD lets you do sneak damage - I think an extra 7d6 on 4 attacks is more useful than 2 extra attacks at 1d4 + 6 + weapon enhancement.
Note that you could take Epic Dodge much earlier if you either give up the final skill dump at level 39, or drop 3 WM levels for 2 fighter and 1 rogue (costs 1 AB point). I prefer this way if you can create it at level 40, but dropping the 3 WM levels will make levelling much easier if you have to build him up.
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 03/21/06 21:21
Thanks for the suggestions... and the above build is a great build but for the server I play on.. it will have around a 65 AB which is average. Epic Dodge is very nice but I dont think the trade off is worth it if I cant hit.
I have that build somewhere in my notes about the halfling WM with the max AB so I will take a look at it more closely.. I thought maybe there was something out there pretty good. IMO, usually max builds have holes when it comes to playability.
Can anyone help me out with the AB boosting spells?
Thanks for the suggestions... and the above build is a great build but for the server I play on.. it will have around a 65 AB which is average. Epic Dodge is very nice but I dont think the trade off is worth it if I cant hit.
65 is only an average AB? Wow, that max possible AB build only has 84 - and that's assuming a +20 weapon.
Quote: I have that build somewhere in my notes about the halfling WM with the max AB so I will take a look at it more closely.. I thought maybe there was something out there pretty good. IMO, usually max builds have holes when it comes to playability.
This is the case with that max AB build: you don't have Uncanny Dodge, so you lose a massive amount of AC if you're flat-footed. You also don't have very good STR, so your damage potential is pretty low (and you don't have sneak attack to boost it).
Quote: Can anyone help me out with the AB boosting spells?
Just few and their effect on AB (I won't list any other bonuses they provide, such as damage, save boosts, etc):
Cleric Spells
Aid: +1 Bless: +1 Battletide: +2 Divine Favor: +1 to +5 (depends on CLC levels) Prayer: +1 Divine Power (gives you the BA of a FTR of the same level. This could possibly have the effect of giving you extra attacks as wel, depending on your character's pre-epic BAB). Grtr Magic Weapon (up to +5, if you don't have a better enchantment on your weapon)
WIZ/SOR Spells Grtr Magic Weapon: up to +5 (see above) True Strike: +20 (only 9 second duration though)
Bard Spells Grtr Magic Weapon (as above) War Cry: +2
Paladin Spells Bless (as the CLC spell) Divine Favor (as the CLC spell) Deafening Clang: +1 (this is a weapon bonus so I don't think it stacks with a magic weapon). Bless Weapon: +1 (does not stack with a weapon that already has an enchantment bonus) Aid: (as the CKC spell) Grtr Magic Weapon (as the CLC spell) Prayer: (as the CLC spell) Holy Sword: +5 (does not stack if the weapon already has +5 or better, but this spell will out casters in serious doo doo, due to its dispel function)
Ranger Spells Aid (as the CLC spell)
I don't know about Druid spells, as I've never played a Druid.
NOTES: the stat-boosting spells can also raise your AB by boosting your main combat ability modifier.
Bards and Pallys get the Taunt skill, which can lower your opponent's AC by up to 6 points, having the effect of boosting your AB.
Bards also get their Bard Song, which can raise AB by +1 or +2 (depending on the level of the Song) and Curse Song, which can lower your opponent's AC (having the net effect of raising your AB). _________________ Captain's Log, Stardate 6051: had trouble sleeping last night... my hiatal hernia is acting up. The ship is... drafty and damp; I complain but... nobody listens.
Thanks for the suggestions... and the above build is a great build but for the server I play on.. it will have around a 65 AB which is average. Epic Dodge is very nice but I dont think the trade off is worth it if I cant hit.
Well, if you can't hit with a 65 AB, you won't hit that much more with 71 (it will only make a difference for the 1st attack, the rest will all need 20's), which is the difference between this one and the max possible. Epic dodge means you have to be hit twice in 1 round, which will make you MUCH more survivable. Up to you.
Quote: I have that build somewhere in my notes about the halfling WM with the max AB so I will take a look at it more closely.. I thought maybe there was something out there pretty good. IMO, usually max builds have holes when it comes to playability.
Yes, they do. You will be tight on epic feats, since it uses all 7 general feats and the HS bonus for Great Dex. And the damage output is pathetic - 1d4 +2 (no room for EWS). Even with a x3 crit and +12 to str, it's still pathetic. You will need a very powerful weapon to provide some damage potential.
Quote: Can anyone help me out with the AB boosting spells?
Note sure if this is complete, but here are some: Aid Bless Prayer Divine Favor Divine Power (only for the Cleric) Bless Weapon Magic Weapon/Greater Magic Weapon Battletide True Strike
TM
Thanks for the responses...
I have a dwarf on this server with a 65 AB and against some other players.. he is totally useless because they have mid 80s in AC.
I thought maybe a dex fighter might be the way to go in this case since I can probably eek out a few more AB points. I also thought there might be some uber build on the forum just for high end servers.
Based on the responses... I will have to go Fighter 11 / WM 28 and Rogue 1... save skill points and boost UMD to 43 so I can use wands and get my AB that way.
Thank you all for your input... it reconfirms what I was thinking but I thought maybe someone knew something I didnt.
Elf Ftr 10, WM 25, HS 5
Ftr 1-10, WM 11+, taking all Harper feats Epic & last HS level at 37 for maxing tumble
Translates to 60 AB with nonmagical weapon 30 BAB + 6 WM + 4 wf/ewf/ep + 20 fully buffed Dex 50
throw in a +4 weapon, scabbard of blessing (aid/bless) that's 66, above your 65 average, maybe a helpful bard will sing for another +2, cleric cast prayer +1 again...
As mentioned earlier in the thread 28 WM / 1 HS will have more AB, however much LESS discipline which is ALWAYS important PvP against KD/IKD
You can also get a really high AB as a Pally/RDD strength tank!
I have a dwarf on this server with a 65 AB and against some other players.. he is totally useless because they have mid 80s in AC.
Sounds like a typical high-magic server. In high-magic worlds, AC always trumps AB because you can only add a max of +20 to your AB via magic, but you can +100 to AC (+20 each to armor, dodge, shield, deflection, and natural). What you might want to consider is taking a dex-based fighter/monk/rogue or fighter/monk/sd. By focusing on dual kamas, you can get 10 attacks per round, which gives you a good chance to roll 2 natural 20's in a round (you will have a 40% chance of 1 20 in a round, and a 15% chance of 2).
Quote: I thought maybe a dex fighter might be the way to go in this case since I can probably eek out a few more AB points. I also thought there might be some uber build on the forum just for high end servers.
Based on the responses... I will have to go Fighter 11 / WM 28 and Rogue 1... save skill points and boost UMD to 43 so I can use wands and get my AB that way.
Thank you all for your input... it reconfirms what I was thinking but I thought maybe someone knew something I didnt.
Dex-based isn't going to get you much more AB. It will get you Epic Dodge. The big deal about that is that it makes you opponents need not 1, but 2 20's in a single round to hit you. That's probably why you can't hit the others. If you only have 5 attacks per round, your odds of getting 2 20's are only 4% (1 in 25 rounds). That's if they don't have any concealment. Compare that to a non-epic dodger with high AC, where you will get one natural 20 23% of the time (about 1 in every 4 rounds).
But the real way to get around that high AC is to become a spellcaster.
TM
Listen to me. Since you get 65 AB with TM's build, i assume you can get maxed out STR or DEX and a +9 weapon. Paladin16/Fighter2/WM22 STR based. Forget CHA, have 14WIS, 13 int and DEX. 15 STR. should get your STR to 32. AB naked with WoC will be 50. Add max STR for 56, a plus 9 weapon for 65 (the same as TM's build), then add bless, parayer for 67, add to that divine favor for 72. Now here is what you do. Have bless and aid up, Cast divine favor, taunt your enemy(for an effective AB up to 78!!) and smash loose. WM and STR based quickly carves up anything it can score a decent amount of hits on. People tend to forget Paladins when talking about high AB, but they're a max AB class with okay buffs. This build assumes Human, though. Your AC won't be up there, so you'll take some hits early on. I have no idea what you are up against, but this guy should be able to score hits! _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Oh I like Grimnir's build! Don't forget about Holy Sword either, it's simply amazing. _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
~ Summoning - Khazad-Dúm
It depends on what you are up against. If it is just high AC, Grimnir's idea is good. If it is Edpic Dodge and/or SCV, then you still have a problem, because the first swing is a guaranteed miss, and the second is a probably miss (if either the first or second swings fail due to the concealment). So the first swing likely to have a chance of landing will be swinging at -10, so it will probably still need a 20.
The best way to deal with the ED characters is to get lots of attacks (preferably with multiple players beating up on a single ED'er). And be sure to take Blindfight if you think they have concealment.
Here is a quick comparison of the odds of hitting at least 1 time during a round when you need a 20 to hit. the first number is the odds of hitting with 5 attacks per round, the second number is the odds of hitting with 10 attacks per round:
#attacks: 5 | 10 No Ed or SC: 22.6% | 40.1% ED: 4.2% | 14.8% SCV: 11.9% | 22.4% SCV & BF: 17.4% | 31.8% ED & SCV: 1.1% | 4.6% ED & SCV & BF: 2.5% | 9.2%
As you can see, ED really drops the odds with 5 attacks. If that's what they have, I recommend you get it and get as many attacks per round as possible, and don't worry about the AB.
Or, find another server. I find fights between players with ED and SCV to be very boring - you get hit once every 10 rounds or so for small damage, when you get to half hitpoints you chug a heal potion, repeat until either someone runs out of heal potions or you get bored.
#attacks: 5 | 10 No Ed or SC: 22.6% | 40.1% ED: 4.2% | 14.8% SCV: 11.9% | 22.4% SCV & BF: 17.4% | 31.8% ED & SCV: 1.1% | 4.6% ED & SCV & BF: 2.5% | 9.2%
Excuse me, but could you please show how you got those figures? I don't understand why you have, for example, 22,6% & 40,1% in the first row. Are you saying the chances decrease each time I make a new attack? Why is it no just 1 / 20 * 5 * 100% = 5 / 20 * 100% = 1 / 4 * 100% = 25%? I suppose I'm overlooking something. I hope you can clear it out. _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
#attacks: 5 | 10 No Ed or SC: 22.6% | 40.1% ED: 4.2% | 14.8% SCV: 11.9% | 22.4% SCV & BF: 17.4% | 31.8% ED & SCV: 1.1% | 4.6% ED & SCV & BF: 2.5% | 9.2%
Excuse me, but could you please show how you got those figures? I don't understand why you have, for example, 22,6% & 40,1% in the first row. Are you saying the chances decrease each time I make a new attack?
No, the first number is the odds of hitting at least 1 time in the round if you have 5 attacks per round, and the second number is the odds of hitting at least 1 time in a round if you have 10 attacks per round. So with only 5 attacks, no Epic Dodge or SC on the target, you have a 22.6% chance of hitting at least once (about 1 hit every 4-5 rounds). With 10 attacks per round, you have a 40.1% chance (1 hit every 2-3 rounds).
Quote: Why is it no just 1 / 20 * 5 * 100% = 5 / 20 * 100% = 1 / 4 * 100% = 25%? I suppose I'm overlooking something. I hope you can clear it out.
Without ED, the odds of hitting at least once in a round is: 1-0.95^(number of attacks). The odds of missing on each attack are 95%, so the odds of missing on all 5 are 0.95^5. The odds of hitting at least once are 1-(odds of missing all 5). With ED, the first hit is an auto-miss, so the odds of hitting become (odds of hitting at least one time)*(odds of hitting with the remaining attacks).
With SCV, you have an addition 50% chance of missing, so the odds of missing are 97.5% per swing. If you have Blindfight, the additional 50% becomes 25%, so the odds of missing are 96.25% per swing.
With ED, the first "hit" actually becomes a miss. So the odds of hitting twice in 1 round with 5 attacks are: (1-0.95^5)*(1-0.95^4). With 10 attacks, it's: (1-0.95^10)*(1-0.95^9). SC and Blindfight change the 0.95 to 0.975 or 0.9625 as above.
Make sense?
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 03/22/06 16:26
Well... So your number is the chance of hitting in a round, eh? _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
Note that ED makes the biggest difference, more than SC. Blindfight helps with SC, but not with ED.
TM
If you need a 20 to hit, I don't need advanced maths to tell me someone with 10 attacks/round has a better chance to hit than one with 5
But he said AC in mid 80's. If that's the truth, an effective AB of 78 should be enough, at least in a strength WM. Assume scimitar for weapon. 5 attacks/round, need to hit: 7/12/17/20/7. In that order each round. That would be 2 to 3 hits pr round. Let's say he can get 3, since holy weapon dispels his opponent . That is 6 hits in 2 rounds, Epic dodge will remove 2, and concealment will remove 1 more. Then you are left with 3 hits in 2 rounds, and he would be lucky if not at least 1 was a crit. Your last attack each round is at max AB, remember that, since it is an important thing against ED'ers.
If he will need 20 anyhow, which he did not ask for, don't worry about what AB you can get. Go Fighter for EWS, Monk for 10 attacks and STR based. Fight with either Imp Expertise or even Imp Power attack. It would help a lot if you could specify more what you fought. but for mid 80's AC, ED and SC V won't save him if you can get AB to 78. If someone has those feats he won't deal much damage either, luckily. With 78 AB, you might consider spamming KD or Called shot: Leg too. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Yeah, I made that yesterday after my confusion with TM's calculations (well, I didn't make that exactly, I made a program that did the same thing but was quite quickly put together, so I made this improved version which took about 45 minutes to make, ie. a lot longer than the first version ). Erm, I hope it entertains all you (other) nerds out there
I don't have any tutorials or anything, it's very simple anyway. I trust y'all know how to use the command prompt (or MS-Dos Prompt for 98 users).
Syntax: AB AC APR Rounds ED SC
AB: your AB here AC: the opponent's AC here Rounds: how many rounds you wish to run the test for ED: 1 for Epic Dodge, 0 for no Epic Dodge SC: Percentage of Concealment Bonus, eg. 50 for Improved Invis or SCV
eg. C:\attack_analysis_utility.exe 50 60 7 3 1 75 runs 3 test rounds each at 7 APR (hasted dual-wielder) with 50 AB, while the opponent has 60 AC, ED & 75% Concealment.
Feel free to ask if you've got problems (or if you just feel like asking about something, eh-heh).
Right, well thanks.
EDITed about 20 times, apparently BioWare doesn't like direct links to executables _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
Quote: Erm, I hope it entertains all you (other) nerds out there
raise your hands if you're a nerd
*raises hand* very cool little program there, not precisely sure how useful it can be but fun and kinda useful to test and see how your builds gonna do against conditions you can set
Nice program Finn, you could style it up and put it in the vault. Very useful for statistical analysis.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Stand and fight, live by your heart Always one more try, I'm not afraid to die Stand and fight, say what you feel Born with a Heart of Steel!
OK.. some more information....
Non-Spellcasters and Monks do not have access to certain items on the server for I am guessing balancing purposes. These classes are mainly limited to +5 items.
The AC items are +7 for armor, shield, helm, +10 Dodge boots.
The AB weapons for this group top out at +9.
A typical dex character with access to items can get around 79 AC with a 68 AB.
A typical str character with access to items can get around a 72 AC with a 68 AB.
Add to this equation "Regeneration" (A process where after one levels up to level 40 then remakes a new level one character with a +2 stat bonus to a stat of choice) where the max regeneration bonus is +12 to stat or +6 to hit/damage, AC etc.
As you can see if you are a senior player on the server with a dex character your AC and AB can top out at 85 and 74 respectively.
Also if you make a pure build (40 levels in one class) there is a +10 stat bonus as well.
So a pure caster can have a 72 stat (I assume that Epic Sorcerers get Great Charisma as a bonus feat) A pure fighter can have a 68 strength however, going heavy in Weaponmaster yields more base AB than going pure Fighter.
As far as items available... assume you can get +12 in any stat, no resistances and some physical and elemental immunities stackable to around 50% on average. Wands are available to those who can craft them. True Sight is available via spell or one item on the server which is a ring. Bonuses to any skill is readily available through the crafting system in place as well as low level immunities such as poison, fear and disease and haste.
What I described above are averages... the better players of course have builds that are above those averages but of course sacrifice something in order to have those advantages.
A typical dex character with access to items can get around 79 AC with a 68 AB.
A typical str character with access to items can get around a 72 AC with a 68 AB.
I think your problem is ED.
In the typical case, a dex char has 79 AC. If they took Improved Expertise (and they should), they can pump it to 89. The typical character (str or dex) has a 68 AB, so can only hit on a 20. With ED, that means they will very rarely hit at all. The Dexer's AB will drop to 58 vs. a 72 AC on a str-basd char, so they will hit about 25% or so on the first attack, plus 5% for the remaining attacks.
The special characters with super high abilities are the same - assuming the same gap between AB and AC, a str-based or dex-based will boost their AB by +11 (from the listed +12 ability from regeneration, +10 from pure class). The str-based has the same 72 AC from before, and an AB of 79. The dex-based char has the same 79 AB, but their AC jumps to 90 (100 with IE active). So they can still force the str-based char to need a 20 to hit, and with ED that means rarely. An even with IE, they will have an AB of 69, enough to hit the 72 AC of the str-based character at will.
30 BAB + 6 WM + 4 wf/ewf/ep + 20 fully buffed Dex 50
. That is 6 hits in 2 rounds, Epic dodge will remove 2, and concealment will remove 1 more. Then you are left with 3 hits in 2 rounds, and he would be lucky if not at least 1 was a crit. Your last attack each round is at max AB, remember that, since it is an important thing against ED'ers.
