-Must contain the mentioned Classes with at least 3 levels of Monk, not spread out. At least 4 levels of CoT for Wisdom, and the remainder in Druid. This does not limit the build to only 3 monk or only 4 CoT though. Those are just the minimums.
-Count on Nothing more than +3 items, with no Perma-Haste or immunities.
--------------------------
So does anyone happen to have a build for this? I have quite a few, most of them seem pretty good but I dont know the competition... I dont know if there is something better. I guess I would like it to focus on AB and AC more so than anything else (i.e. Spell Power)
So far, I have gotten 75 AC with 48 AB with around 5 attacks, maybe 6... I forget. Is this the best, or can it be better?
I dont know these things, so if anyone has a better build, please post.. thanks.
Here's one way to get there. Monk 6 for AC, KD/IKD and speed, CoT 10 for extra feats, saves boni and BAB 16 at 20th lvl (4 apr armed, 6 unarmed). Extra Stunning Fists since there are only 6 monk lvls and since the WIS is high enough to make it worthwhile. Archery feats help unshifted, drop them if you don't need them (Exp/IE might be a good choice). Here we go:
********************
Druid(14), Monk(6), Champion of Torm(10) Human, LN
LEVELING GUIDE 01: Druid(1): Blind Fight, Point Blank Shot or Expertise 02: Druid(2) 03: Druid(3): Extend Spell 04: Druid(4): WIS+1, (WIS=19) 05: Druid(5) 06: Druid(6): Zen Archery 07: Monk(1): {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist} 08: Monk(2): WIS+1, {Deflect Arrows}, (WIS=20) 09: Monk(3): Weapon Focus 10: Druid(7) 11: Champion of Torm(1) 12: Champion of Torm(2): WIS+1, Empower Spell, Called Shot, (WIS=21) 13: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil} 14: Champion of Torm(4): Improved Critical: Unarmed 15: Druid(8): Toughness 16: Druid(9): WIS+1, (WIS=22) 17: Monk(4) 18: Druid(10): Extra Stunning Attacks 19: Druid(11) 20: Druid(12): WIS+1, (WIS=23) 21: Champion of Torm(5): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=24) 22: Monk(5) 23: Champion of Torm(6): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=25) 24: Champion of Torm(7): WIS+1, Great Wisdom III, (WIS=27) 25: Champion of Torm(8): Great Wisdom IV, (WIS=28) 26: Champion of Torm(9) 27: Champion of Torm(10): Great Wisdom V, Epic Prowess, (WIS=29) 28: Druid(13): WIS+1, (WIS=30) 29: Monk(6): {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown} 30: Druid(14): Dragon Shape
*********************
See if you like it.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 06/14/06 00:28
This build seems pretty solid so far as I can tell, I like most of the stats and all that, AB and AC when shifted are quite good if I am not mistaken.
I was kind of curious about something though. Are the Archery feats really worth it when you have Animal Shapes? Wouldnt they better suit for playability rather than a bow? Plus, if you drop the bow feats you can take KD and IKD without 6 monk, leave it at 3 or 4 and save a few levels that could be put into Druid for Elemental Shape which would help for playability probably. I dont think that would take away from anything in Dragon Shape aside from Speed and 2 Stunning fists, which can be made up for with simple IKD in most cases; and when that doesn't work there are still at least 3 stunning fists.
I think the 10 CoT would be worth while, I have never seen a CoT heavy build for DS, but it does help BAB and amount of feats so that could be benificial for things like Armour Skin and Epic Prowess?
I will look into this build, make a few changes (I think) and post it back here when I am done for, hopefully, some critiquing.
Thanks Kail.
Why not try this: Druid to 12, focus on a melee weapon to qualify. Ability scores focused on Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence in that order. Take 8 COT, picking up combat feat goodies and the heavy armor proficency, while stacking up your ab and saving throws. Once epic, use the bonus CoT feats for great wisdom until you hit 30, placing the rest into Great charisma to take advantage of the cha-based duration of the CoT divine wrath feature. Take 2 more druid levels to qualify for dragon shape and finally a monk level at 40 to max out tumble hide, move silently and discipline. Out the gate as a dragon your ab, ac and saves will be very nice, with a respectable and nearly unsoakable damage output. With divine wrath your 25 levels of CoT will be like hitting the turbo, knocking your ab into the 70's for about one minute; long enough to maul hipsters, acid sheath mages, and take the weapons right to your inventory of any armed foe. The claw size category is an advantage when calculating an unarmed disarm attempt. Long range nukers and arcane archers will be your only realy problems, as your speed will be reduced in dragonshape.
Why not try this: Druid to 12, focus on a melee weapon to qualify. Ability scores focused on Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence in that order. Take 8 COT, picking up combat feat goodies and the heavy armor proficency, while stacking up your ab and saving throws. Once epic, use the bonus CoT feats for great wisdom until you hit 30, placing the rest into Great charisma to take advantage of the cha-based duration of the CoT divine wrath feature. Take 2 more druid levels to qualify for dragon shape and finally a monk level at 40 to max out tumble hide, move silently and discipline. Out the gate as a dragon your ab, ac and saves will be very nice, with a respectable and nearly unsoakable damage output. With divine wrath your 25 levels of CoT will be like hitting the turbo, knocking your ab into the 70's for about one minute; long enough to maul hipsters, acid sheath mages, and take the weapons right to your inventory of any armed foe. The claw size category is an advantage when calculating an unarmed disarm attempt. Long range nukers and arcane archers will be your only realy problems, as your speed will be reduced in dragonshape.
...
I'm not even gonna bother...
Deltutammatre must mean something like this. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Oh I understand exactly what he was saying. The problem was he had no clue of what I had said.
-I need a level 30 build. He gave me a level 40 build.
-I asked to have at least 3 levels of Monk. He gave me 1.
--------------------
But with that aside, I have a question. What is the best AB and AC you can attain as a fully buffed Monk/CoT/Druid with 30 levels? So far, my attempts have only had minor differences with AB anywhere from 45 to 49, and AC from low to high 70's.
I tried a build with less CoT, one with 4, one with 6. I also tried the one with 10. The differences were very miniscule for me. Unless I am missing something, wouldn't it just be better to go less CoT and more Druid for a tad-bit extra Spell Power as well as Elemental Shape for playability? Or more Monk for speed and possibly higher AC?
But I guess the main quesion is the potential AB and AC of the build, while in Dragon Form, buffed.
Any help?
Actually the Archery feats are in for playability, you'll not be shifted all the time and Zen Archery gives you a respectable AB boost, given your WIS and Monk's speed will help you stay away from reach. If you don't plan to use a bow then I'd suggest to get expertise/IE instead, extra AC is always handy.
Monk 6 also gives you +1 AC and skill dumps besides KD/IKD, +10% speed and more SF per day as you say. If dropping Monk lvls you'll have to go Druid 16/Monk 4/CoT 10 taking the 4th Monk lvl at 29th lvl not to lose AB and the final skill dump.
It's ultimately your choice if you prefer getting Elemental Shape (Huge) 1x day and 8th lvl spell slots, (handy to extend AoV) at the cost of 2 feats, 2 SF x day (and that's a loss when you have so few uses) and mid career skill dumps. The choice is between two different styles of playability, if you know what I mean. Built to taste.
Regarding AB/AC: with a lvl 30 cap and your server's rules I believe the stats I gave you are the best you can get for a Druid/Monk/CoT dragon. BTW, don't trust the character sheet to know your AB and AC, it lies.
AB gets a further +2 in wilderness areas (not counting towards the cap).
The problem with AB is that you don't have many ways to rise it (and DS merges Armor only, ie armor, shield and helmet). As a druid you can only max your STR and Divine Wrath from CoT is 1xday and lasts very little so it will actually be 48-51 without it. If by any chance you get a true strike potion (besides capping your STR) you max AB would be 65.
I hope this helped. Feel free to ask other questions, we'll try to help
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
Why not try this: Druid to 12, focus on a melee weapon to qualify. Ability scores focused on Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence in that order. Take 8 COT, picking up combat feat goodies and the heavy armor proficency, while stacking up your ab and saving throws. Once epic, use the bonus CoT feats for great wisdom until you hit 30, placing the rest into Great charisma to take advantage of the cha-based duration of the CoT divine wrath feature. Take 2 more druid levels to qualify for dragon shape and finally a monk level at 40 to max out tumble hide, move silently and discipline. Out the gate as a dragon your ab, ac and saves will be very nice, with a respectable and nearly unsoakable damage output. With divine wrath your 25 levels of CoT will be like hitting the turbo, knocking your ab into the 70's for about one minute; long enough to maul hipsters, acid sheath mages, and take the weapons right to your inventory of any armed foe. The claw size category is an advantage when calculating an unarmed disarm attempt. Long range nukers and arcane archers will be your only realy problems, as your speed will be reduced in dragonshape.
Let's skip the fact it's a lvl 40 build when a lvl 30 was asked, I wanted to clarify a couple of points.
Your AB will barely make it to 70 and only in wilderness areas since you'll start with 51 AB and your buffing capacity is for +11 from divine wrath and +6 from STR capping. MAX AB is 71 (73 in wilderness areas) and you won't get past that because of the cap. You'll need potions and/or external buffing to do it though. Also, I don't think you'll make it past 20 with CHA and so the DW duration will be something like 30 seconds (5 rounds).
Also, unarmed disarm won't help your AB, since unarmed disarm does not benefit from any boni/mali to AB due to weapon size difference, be it a halfling monk disarming a great sword wielder or a dragon disarming a dagger wielding fool. That is, you'll always hit at -4 AB (-6 with Disarm only) for attempting the maneuver. I was surprised to find out it works this way and while it help monks it sucks for dragons.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
Actually the Archery feats are in for playability, you'll not be shifted all the time and Zen Archery gives you a respectable AB boost, given your WIS and Monk's speed will help you stay away from reach. If you don't plan to use a bow then I'd suggest to get expertise/IE instead, extra AC is always handy.
Monk 6 also gives you +1 AC and skill dumps besides KD/IKD, +10% speed and more SF per day as you say. If dropping Monk lvls you'll have to go Druid 16/Monk 4/CoT 11 taking the 4th Monk lvl at 29th lvl not to lose AB and the final skill dump.
It's ultimately your choice if you prefer getting Elemental Shape (Huge) 1x day and 8th lvl spell slots, (handy to extend AoV) at the cost of 2 feats, 2 SF x day (and that's a loss when you have so few uses) and mid career skill dumps. The choice is between two different styles of playability, if you know what I mean. Built to taste.
Regarding AB/AC: with a lvl 30 cap and your server's rules I believe the stats I gave you are the best you can get for a Druid/CoT/CoT dragon. BTW, don't trust the character sheet to know your AB and AC, it lies.
AB gets a further +2 in wilderness areas (not counting towards the cap).
The problem with AB is that you don't have many ways to rise it (and DS merges Armor only, ie armor, shield and helmet). As a druid you can only max your STR and Divine Wrath from CoT is 1xday and lasts very little so it will actually be 48-51 without it. If by any chance you get a true strike potion (besides capping your STR) you max AB would be 65.
I hope this helped. Feel free to ask other questions, we'll try to help
Cheers, Kail
Alright. Thanks.
But just to clerify, with the build that you gave me...
What is the final AB and AC (Buffed, Shifted, Basic Items, and Not in Wilderness)...
I know you answered, though all your discriptive numbers foiled my feeble Brain.
*sighs* Another question... sort of.
I just realized that the more Druid levels you have, the more your AC will be. With Owls Insight you will get +1 AC for every additional 2 levels, so wouldn't it be best for more Druid levels. This means more AC, more Spells and Higher DC's, Elemental Shape for Playability, and maybe something I'm forgetting...
But then again, I suppose that anything that can actually hit above 60-80 AC with 30 levels, will likely not be able to do more than 40 damage anyways, and there is no way on my server to pass DR/+6 unless you beat the DR with brute force. So I suppose that extra AC is less valuable than AB.
So what is the best way to pump up AB? More CoT Pre-Epic, Monk levels for more Attacks, what else? Taking enough CoT Epic for Epic Prowess... and thats it right?
Quote: Posted 06/17/06 21:24:16 (GMT) -- Okembour
*sighs* Another question... sort of.
I just realized that the more Druid levels you have, the more your AC will be. With Owls Insight you will get +1 AC for every additional 2 levels, so wouldn't it be best for more Druid levels. This means more AC, more Spells and Higher DC's, Elemental Shape for Playability, and maybe something I'm forgetting...
But then again, I suppose that anything that can actually hit above 60-80 AC with 30 levels, will likely not be able to do more than 40 damage anyways, and there is no way on my server to pass DR/+6 unless you beat the DR with brute force. So I suppose that extra AC is less valuable than AB.
So what is the best way to pump up AB? More CoT Pre-Epic, Monk levels for more Attacks, what else? Taking enough CoT Epic for Epic Prowess... and thats it right?
The build I gave you gets the highest AB without dropping Monk (but I would never do that) in a lvl 30 capped environment.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
Hmm. So the only way to make it higher, is Epic Prowess and more Pre-Epic CoT, right? And the conflict here is that you dont want to drop drop Monk levels because you want the bonus feat IKD, and more stunning attacks. For some reason though, stunning attacks dont seem to matter to me (I think because IKD fits more... my preference). But if you got rid of those 2 unnecisary Pre-Epic Monk levels, that could become an extra 2 CoT levels for +2 AB, right? Plus, the extra feat from that could get Knockdown, and if I remove Extra Stunning Fists that would get my IKD instead. Plus, I dont much care for Called Shot, so that could free up another feat for pretty much anything (Maybe Empower Spell.) That would give me Emp Bullstrength for a slightly higher AB, in addition to the extra Pre-Epic CoT's AB.
Would that be as high as I could get it? If I moved too much CoT pre-epic then I cant get Epic Prowess in addition to the GW feats.
Any tips?
Quote: Posted 06/19/06 18:36:35 (GMT) -- Okembour
Hmm. So the only way to make it higher, is Epic Prowess and more Pre-Epic CoT, right? And the conflict here is that you dont want to drop drop Monk levels because you want the bonus feat IKD, and more stunning attacks. For some reason though, stunning attacks dont seem to matter to me (I think because IKD fits more... my preference). But if you got rid of those 2 unnecisary Pre-Epic Monk levels, that could become an extra 2 CoT levels for +2 AB, right? Plus, the extra feat from that could get Knockdown, and if I remove Extra Stunning Fists that would get my IKD instead. Plus, I dont much care for Called Shot, so that could free up another feat for pretty much anything (Maybe Empower Spell.) That would give me Emp Bullstrength for a slightly higher AB, in addition to the extra Pre-Epic CoT's AB.
Would that be as high as I could get it? If I moved too much CoT pre-epic then I cant get Epic Prowess in addition to the GW feats.
Any tips?
No you didn't get it. It has nothing to do with my attachment for IKD or more monk lvls. What I said is that there's no way to improve AB unless you drop all monk lvls, which I do not advocate. Actually I was mistaken, cause there's no way at all to improve your AB beyond the one the build I gave you gets (you can get the same or less with other builds).
Empower spell is already there (besides if you look at it max buffed AB is calculated with STR capped at 60 and you can do that only with a lucky empowered BS roll plus BF and AoV), Called Shot is much more valuable than what you seem to think (called shot leg effectively increases you AB, called shot arm your AC) and 2 more CoT preepic would lose you Epic Prowess without getting you any increase in BAB at all (therefore you'd get -1 AB).
At most you can go Druid 12/Monk 3/CoT 5 preepic then finish Druid 16/Monk 4/CoT 10 for the elemental shapes to keep the same AB as now, at the cost of 1 AC, 10% speed and 2 feats. Other solutions will cost you also AB.
I hope this makes it clear.
PS: re-reading your post it looks like you seem to forget that past 10th lvl CoT gets bonus feats every 4 lvls not every 2.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
Ya...
Woah, my bad
I was -SO- not paying attention when I read your post, nor when I wrote my own. Yeesh!
Alright Kail. Thanks alot.
One last question though, do you think getting rid of those 2 monk levels for the 16th Druid is worth it? I am really torn between it after you told me about the 10% speed loss, the -1 AC, and ya... the fewer Stunning Attacks might hurt a bit, not to mention the 2 feats; though at the same time, Elemental Shape could really come in handy... alot. For RP reasons it is fun, though that is secondary when you can RP as a friggin' Dragon of your choice. The major reason, is that the Elemental is smaller, and provides an alternative choice to Dragon when a Dragon is simply not meneuverable, or not practical. It is more so for a tactical reason than a 'build' reason I guess.
Do you have a preference personally? Its really the 2 feats that gets me the most. Those could be really, really useful. But I dont want to get stuck in some forest where I cant move.
Edited By Okembour on 06/20/06 03:11
Environment dictates some choices in builds and you are the one to know the best your environment.
This said I can offer you a little insight to make your choice. The loss in AC will be made up by the increased WIS from Owl's Insight (although the latter can get dispelled) so it may be a lesser concer for you. Elemental shape is handy indeed and it fits a druid, but remember also that you get it only 1/day at 16th lvl (and it's the Huge variant not the Elder). By getting more Druid you get 8th lvls spells and spell slots (you can now extend AoV). You'll have to lose 2 feats to keep KD/IKD, although there's a couple you might drop, given your preferences. Keep all these elements in mind when making your choice
If you go for more druid remember to go Druid 12/CoT 5/Monk 3 preepic, not to lose AB and the final monk skill dump.
My personal preference? I'd go for Monk 6, mainly because elemental shape is usable just once per day, but that's just me I can see the benefits of the alternative though and the choice is not so easy, I understand.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
I put some thought into it the other night and I decided that I need Elemental Shape. I will sacrifice some of the archery feats which I just don't need in the long run. Playability might be rougher but I can tolerate it. I want to RP it so that my abilities remain unknown to my enemies until a dramatic scenario arises where all of a sudden... BAM... a Dragon is eating their faces. But to do this, I need an alternative. Even if it is only once a day, it lasts a long while and the AC in Air Elemental will be very nice.
Thanks for all the help Kail. Really, thanks alot.
I was wondering though, if you could point me in the direction of a technical breakdown of the Dragonshape feat. I need to know a few things:
-What merges in that form.
-What components make up its AC (i.e. Dodge, Natural).
-What its Touch AC is, flat footed AC.
-All of its natural abilities and how and when they apply.
-Does the 40/+6 DR work for elements and other damage variants, or just physical (i.e. Piercing, Slashing Bludgeoning).
Stuff like that. Is there an FAQ about it somewhere? It would help alot. I dont want to have to pelt you with all my questions... I'm feeling guilty... so is there a segment on the feat?
Quote: Posted 06/20/06 21:50:33 (GMT) -- Okembour
I was wondering though, if you could point me in the direction of a technical breakdown of the Dragonshape feat. I need to know a few things:
-What merges in that form.
-What components make up its AC (i.e. Dodge, Natural).
-What its Touch AC is, flat footed AC.
-All of its natural abilities and how and when they apply.
-Does the 40/+6 DR work for elements and other damage variants, or just physical (i.e. Piercing, Slashing Bludgeoning).
Stuff like that. Is there an FAQ about it somewhere? It would help alot. I dont want to have to pelt you with all my questions... I'm feeling guilty... so is there a segment on the feat?
It merges Armor. Its AC is
10 Base +20 Dodge +13 DEX
Dragons have True Seeing, DR 40/+6, 20 SR and they're immune to Paralysis/Sneak Attack. Each shape has a little bit different breath weapon. DC = 15 +(SL+DL) /2 Reflex; damage dice = 2 for each 3 levels over 4, pure Druids cap at 20.
Red Dragon has Xd10 Fire Blue Dragon has Xd8 Electrical Green Dragon has Xd6 Acid +Poison
Touch AC is 23. Flat-Footed AC is 10 (unless you have Uncanny, with which it's 23).
The DR only works against physical damage. However, the Red Dragon has 100% Damage Immunity against fire and 50% vulnerability against Cold. Blue Dragon 100% DI Electrical, Green Dragon 100% DI Acid. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
When you say armor, does that include shields? And is that it? Rings? Helmet, belt, and/or boot properties?
And about the Touch AC... if it is so low, then wouldn't Harm be the end of that dragon? Is there any defence against it?
You meld armour, helmet and shield. Not base properties, and they do not stack in any way, so get different bonuses from each.
Touch AC is bound to be higher than 23, since that is DEX-bonus alone, and dragons have +20 Dodge bonus on top and even tumble bonus if any. 46 is more like it with 15 tumble. I even think deflection helps, from your items. And the Dragon has inherent SR that can help at least in some cases. Do not get caught flat-footed with a touch-attack though. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Touch AC is bound to be higher than 23, since that is DEX-bonus alone, and dragons have +20 Dodge bonus on top and even tumble bonus if any. 46 is more like it with 15 tumble. I even think deflection helps, from your items. And the Dragon has inherent SR that can help at least in some cases. Do not get caught flat-footed with a touch-attack though.
Yeah, you're right, the touch AC is indeed 43, sorry. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Is there any defence against harm? It seems pretty dumb that a Dragon with around 800HP and 72 AC, with around 40 to all of its saves will fall to a single touch of a Cleric who only has to pass an AC in the 40's. After all of the effort and power put into the Dragon... it basically just dies against a Cleric.
Am I missing something or is Harm the ultimate weapon?
Quote: Posted 06/23/06 01:27:27 (GMT) -- Okembour
Is there any defence against harm? It seems pretty dumb that a Dragon with around 800HP and 72 AC, with around 40 to all of its saves will fall to a single touch of a Cleric who only has to pass an AC in the 40's. After all of the effort and power put into the Dragon... it basically just dies against a Cleric.
Am I missing something or is Harm the ultimate weapon?
No defense if it hits. However, damage resistance etc. against Negative Energy ought to work, but basically you've got to make it not hit either with AC or SR. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Quote: Posted 06/23/06 01:27:27 (GMT) -- Okembour
Is there any defence against harm? ...
Potions of Heal and fast fingers if you haven't got enough SR or AC.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
Alright. Thanks guys. Thats it.
